[DTB] Vial Goblins

[GreenOne]

I'd say you're better off cutting Port, but I know I'm apparently in the minority on that.

I'm with you about port. I'd go with 0-2 ports in 2 color builds and 0 ports in 3 color builds. I'd never go with more than 3 ports unless you want to raise the land count.

[JDunkin00]

If you go nuts with Kiki, you've already won the game. He's exactly a win-more card. Like, yeah, he's good, but nowhere near as good as Wort.

I'd say you're better off cutting Port, but I know I'm apparently in the minority on that.

I cut Kiki a long time ago. I prefer the full set of ports. I would cut back on fetches, replaced by mountains. Basic mountains are far more important because your splashes can be cheated in (Vial, Lackey).

[Slay]

Thorn of Amethyst is neither a Goblin, nor a 5/3 Goblin for 3 mana, nor is it as flexible.

Earwig Squad doesn't JUST hit combo decks, he hits everything. He can get rid of sweepers, threats, combo pieces, or even mana.

But he doesn't give you actual card advantage, only a big beater. If your opponent still has enough gas to run through your goblins, you still lose. And because you're spending your turn playing a beater instead of getting card or mana advantage with your other 3-4 drops, you give your opponent that much more time to get better cards than you and continue to win.

Why run Matron? 3 mana for a 1/1? That card is terrible. Ringleader? I heart 4 mana 2/2s.

If you guys don't understand the synergy that makes the deck tick, you don't understand the deck. Thoughtseize and Thorn are not Goblins. Thus they don't have as much synergy with the deck. Thus they're not comparable.

The synergy Goblins has isn't that all of its cards are Goblins, its that all of its cards, with the exception of Fanatic and Piledriver and SGC, get you card advantage or mana advantage. Earwig Squad does neither, and it's high on the curve. I'd play a Ringleader or a Matron or a Warchief or basically any other card before I'd play a Squad simply because it costs a lot of mana for a negligible effect and a mediocre beatstick. And, if you really want to talk about dissynergies, how about the way Earwig Squad is TERRIBLE with Vial and still costs 4 mana(with 2 black) if you have a Warchief and want to attack with it.
-Slay

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

That argument about Vial/Lackey applies to Tin-Street as well. Goblins is powerful because all of its components have synergy with each other. Any goblin card is better than any non goblin card of roughly equal power level because of the cards you're all ready running, not because of the card in question.

Pretending that the deck's synergy isn't tribal is inane. Why not run Avalanche Riders? It's a free stone rain with Vial at 4. The deck's components all advance your mid-game strategy, as does Earwig; it doesn't gain direct card advantage, but neither do most of your cards. Like Warchief, it makes your other threats better, not by increasing their strength, but by removing the opponents best answers. Facing Life from the Loam minus Burning Wish, or Survival minus Squee-Anger-Genesis suite, is a very good proposition in the mid-late game.

The scenario of having Warchief out and being "forced" to play Earwig earlier leaves you with only a hasted Juggernaut. That's not an amazing argument against the guy if that's your worst case scenario.

[JDunkin00]

But he doesn't give you actual card advantage, only a big beater. If your opponent still has enough gas to run through your goblins, you still lose. And because you're spending your turn playing a beater instead of getting card or mana advantage with your other 3-4 drops, you give your opponent that much more time to get better cards than you and continue to win.



The synergy Goblins has isn't that all of its cards are Goblins, its that all of its cards, with the exception of Fanatic and Piledriver and SGC, get you card advantage or mana advantage. Earwig Squad does neither, and it's high on the curve. I'd play a Ringleader or a Matron or a Warchief or basically any other card before I'd play a Squad simply because it costs a lot of mana for a negligible effect and a mediocre beatstick. And, if you really want to talk about dissynergies, how about the way Earwig Squad is TERRIBLE with Vial and still costs 4 mana(with 2 black) if you have a Warchief and want to attack with it.
-Slay

I have to disagree with you about SGC he is quite the essence of card advantage. Card advantage doesn"t have to be cards in hand trading one card (SGC) for 2-8 of theirs using block, stack damage, sack tricks is definately CA. I do agree earwig squad seems worse and worse everytime I think about it.

[Slay]

That argument about Vial/Lackey applies to Tin-Street as well. Goblins is powerful because all of its components have synergy with each other. Any goblin card is better than any non goblin card of roughly equal power level because of the cards you're all ready running, not because of the card in question.

Pretending that the deck's synergy isn't tribal is inane. Why not run Avalanche Riders? It's a free stone rain with Vial at 4. The deck's components all advance your mid-game strategy, as does Earwig; it doesn't gain direct card advantage, but neither do most of your cards. Like Warchief, it makes your other threats better, not by increasing their strength, but by removing the opponents best answers. Facing Life from the Loam minus Burning Wish, or Survival minus Squee-Anger-Genesis suite, is a very good proposition in the mid-late game.

The scenario of having Warchief out and being "forced" to play Earwig earlier leaves you with only a hasted Juggernaut. That's not an amazing argument against the guy if that's your worst case scenario.

Firstly, to think you're going to hit Squee-Anger-Genesis with one of these is ridiculous. If you ever get around to playing this card, and Survival hasn't already gotten them to the yard, you either got the God hand or they suck at Magic. And even then it's not like you would have won anyways, they still play better creatures than you. Against a Loam deck, you're worried about their Burning Wishes? Either they've got their Loam engine up and running and don't care about drawing cards, or they have already got enough Burning Wishes, or you've gotten the God hand. Do you understand what I'm getting at here? In most of the situations that you will be able to play Earwig, its ability will be either irrelevant because they've already found their cards, or your opponent will have gained enough of a position to counter it. Sure you might win a game or two against Breakfast or Ichorid or Survival Or Aluren by getting it out early, but that requires you playing it in multiples, and you getting a God draw. Do you really think the ability for its mana cost is worth it?

Secondly, what are you going to replace for it? Are you going to play it as a one or two of and hope to Matron into it before your opponent gets his engine ready? Is it better than Incinerator? Is it better than Matron? is it better than Siege-Gang? Which cards exactly is it better than? Unless you want to overload the curve, you would have to replace a 3cc or higher Goblin with the Earwig. That leaves you with Warchief, Matron, Ringleader, Wort, SGC.Are you goign to cut any of them for a conditional beatstick?

To tie it all together: Against most decks the ability is mostly meaningless, and most of the decks it's not meaningless against will either win before it hits play or counter it, or you had a Lackey(but I prefer my hate cards not require a Goblin Lackey to connect before they start working). So therefore, would you be comfortable with what will usually be a Juggernaut which costs between 3 and 5 mana in this format? Is it better than any of the cards in your deck? Does it serve as much utility as the utility cards in your deck do? I don't see any reason, when you look at the textbox instead of the type line, that the card would ever have a place in the deck outside of some very, very obscure metagame.
-Slay

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Firstly, to think you're going to hit Squee-Anger-Genesis with one of these is ridiculous. If you ever get around to playing this card, and Survival hasn't already gotten them to the yard, you either got the God hand or they suck at Magic.

That depends on what you're playing. If for instance you replace Wastes with Tombs, which isn't a bad meta decision anyway, your chances of a turn 2-3 Earwig aren't bad at all. Getting Warchief and Lackey isn't exactly a God-draw at any rate. Nor is Survival nearly as fast as you're implying.

And even then it's not like you would have won anyways, they still play better creatures than you.

Strongly disagree. Without the card advantage of Squee, or the threat of Anger, their threats all become substantially weaker.

Against a Loam deck, you're worried about their Burning Wishes? Either they've got their Loam engine up and running and don't care about drawing cards, or they have already got enough Burning Wishes, or you've gotten the God hand.

What would the alternative cards do in that situation?

Do you understand what I'm getting at here? In most of the situations that you will be able to play Earwig, its ability will be either irrelevant because they've already found their cards, or your opponent will have gained enough of a position to counter it. Sure you might win a game or two against Breakfast or Ichorid or Survival Or Aluren by getting it out early, but that requires you playing it in multiples, and you getting a God draw. Do you really think the ability for its mana cost is worth it?

For 2-3 mana, and a Juggernaut?

Yes. Compared to the alternatives.

Secondly, what are you going to replace for it? Are you going to play it as a one or two of and hope to Matron into it before your opponent gets his engine ready? Is it better than Incinerator? Is it better than Matron? is it better than Siege-Gang? Which cards exactly is it better than? Unless you want to overload the curve, you would have to replace a 3cc or higher Goblin with the Earwig. That leaves you with Warchief, Matron, Ringleader, Wort, SGC.Are you goign to cut any of them for a conditional beatstick?

You run 2-3 and because it's never dead, even if you don't have it early. Off the top of my head you replace, from Jeff Folonius Mana Leak Open 3 list, the second Wort and a Piledriver. With the switch from Waste to Tomb you could replace the 23rd land.

To tie it all together: Against most decks the ability is mostly meaningless, and most of the decks it's not meaningless against will either win before it hits play or counter it, or you had a Lackey(but I prefer my hate cards not require a Goblin Lackey to connect before they start working). So therefore, would you be comfortable with what will usually be a Juggernaut which costs between 3 and 5 mana in this format? Is it better than any of the cards in your deck? Does it serve as much utility as the utility cards in your deck do? I don't see any reason, when you look at the textbox instead of the type line, that the card would ever have a place in the deck outside of some very, very obscure metagame.
-Slay

First of all, the deck needs muscle anyway. Second of all, that muscle comes with an always useful and sometimes game-winning ability. I think your problem is that you're thinking of it as a hoser, when it's a beatstick that gives you a strong leg-up in the mid-late game, and occasionally steals a game on its own.

[zulander]

I think he's conditional at best.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

In what sense? He'll only conditionally win games by himself, but he'll always be a 5/3 that eliminates three important threats to your game-plan, creating substantial virtual card advantage.

[etrigan]

He wont always be 5/3 that eliminates threats. You'll have to swing in for damage for that to happen.

Which creates a conflict within the deck. Warchief giving guys haste is an important aspect of the card. You will never be able to extract 3 and take advantage of the haste.

Then again, maybe that fact will probe irrelevant.

[Kundalini]

Lightning Crafter

Cost: 3R

Creature - Goblin Shaman - 3/3

Champion a Goblin or Shaman
T: Lightning Crafter deals 3 damage to target creature or player.

I can see this finding a place in goblins. It is not so easy casting it out of vial, lackey or warchief... and there are some ridiculous plays with this and kiki-jiki and/or ANY other CIP goblin in the deck.

Goblins that are in the deck mainly for their CIP effects (matron, ringleader) can be championed to eventually replay their CIP effect. Crafter in play with a championed matron/ringleader can chump block, burn in response and return your ringleader to play; OR, shoot himself if you desperately need that matron to tutor up a particular goblin you need at the moment.

With a crafter and a kiki-jiki in play you can:
Tap kiki to copy crafter, champion kiki itself; tap crafter to burn for 3; EOT kiki returns into play, then repeat in opp's turn and so on.

I think this has promising possibilities!
One or two crafter can easily replace some gempalm incinerator and/ or ringleaders and/or ib halfheart...

[Slay]

That depends on what you're playing. If for instance you replace Wastes with Tombs, which isn't a bad meta decision anyway, your chances of a turn 2-3 Earwig aren't bad at all. Getting Warchief and Lackey isn't exactly a God-draw at any rate. Nor is Survival nearly as fast as you're implying.

Getting Warchief and Lackey means you can win on turn 4, most of the time. Sure, if you want to make the deck as top-heavy as possible, be my guest, but it's pretty ridiculous to do so.

Strongly disagree. Without the card advantage of Squee, or the threat of Anger, their threats all become substantially weaker.

So what you're saying is, if they don't get an early Survival, you can play a spell that makes your threats better than their threats? That's the definition of conditional.

What would the alternative cards do in that situation?

What every other card in Goblins does - draw more Goblins, or make your Goblins cheaper, or beat for a million. Those are all better than what is generally going to be a vanilla beater.

For 2-3 mana, and a Juggernaut?

Yes. Compared to the alternatives.

The alternatives are drawing cards that cheat your mana, gain actual card advantage, or deal lots of damage. A (mostly) vanilla 5/3 beatstick is pretty useless, and is spectacularly easy to kill.

You run 2-3 and because it's never dead, even if you don't have it early. Off the top of my head you replace, from Jeff Folonius Mana Leak Open 3 list, the second Wort and a Piledriver. With the switch from Waste to Tomb you could replace the 23rd land.

When would you ever want to draw this over Wort?

First of all, the deck needs muscle anyway. Second of all, that muscle comes with an always useful and sometimes game-winning ability. I think your problem is that you're thinking of it as a hoser, when it's a beatstick that gives you a strong leg-up in the mid-late game, and occasionally steals a game on its own.

I agree with you that the deck needs muscle. However, what it does not need is a very high curve and more cards that are useless if you can't get in the early beats. You're going to open a lot of hands where you're really going to be relying on being undisrupted and drawing into some lands in order to play the majority of your spells. You'll be less able to answer Tarmogoyf beats, and you make yourself even more susceptible to Daze, and your opponent will get his gameplan set up faster than you. Goblins won because it translated early-game momentum into mid-late game card advantage and mana advantage, and in this regard, playing Earwig Squad is counter to your gameplan. It's the worst Goblin in your deck, and it's going to sit in your hand because there's much, much better stuff you could be playing for that mana. At best it trades with a Tarmogoyf, at worst it trades for a few cheap creatures or a Swords. That's terrible tempo disadvantage no matter how you cut it, and the last thing Goblins needs right now is to play cards that are almost guaranteed to lose you tempo.
-Slay

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

You keep saying "high curve". 3 mana is not top-heavy for the deck, its the average CC.

The alternatives are drawing cards that cheat your mana, gain actual card advantage, or deal lots of damage. A (mostly) vanilla 5/3 beatstick is pretty useless, and is spectacularly easy to kill.

None of the alternatives actually do those things, and this is what you're argument is missing. I never suggested cutting Matron or Ringleader or Warchief. Piledriver CAN do tons of damage, but Piledriver is actually much more conditional than Earwig Squad is. The second Wort is also conditional, as it's legendary.

It may actually make more sense to cut another Piledriver for the second Earwig, rather than the second Wort. Either way, there are spots up for grabs that Earwig may be better than.

So what you're saying is, if they don't get an early Survival, you can play a spell that makes your threats better than their threats? That's the definition of conditional.

A turn 2 Survival on the draw means they don't get pieces online til turn 3, and don't get stuff on the board until turn 4. That's enough time for a turn 2-3 Earwig to tip the game in your favor; even if they grab Squee and Anger, you can still remove 3 Goyfs that otherwise would be hitting the board soon, and you now have a 5/3 to face off the remaining Goyf. Against an active Survival, any early to mid Earwig is the opposite of conditional; an early Survival means their deck is available to them, meaning any cards you take away are cards they otherwise would have tutored for next turn.

[quote]When would you ever want to draw this over Wort?/quote]

When your GY isn't full, or against an active Survival(with access to removal or Loaming Shaman), or if you all ready have Wort in play, or against Breakfast/Enchantress/any threat light deck, or if you're one mana short of Auntie.

Although as I said, another Piledriver might be the right call.

Which creates a conflict within the deck. Warchief giving guys haste is an important aspect of the card. You will never be able to extract 3 and take advantage of the haste.

This is true. You still have control over which happens though. If you need a hasty Juggernaut, you can have it, and if you need a 2 mana triple extract, you can have that.

[Nightmare]

Vs. Survival, if you get the dude out to extract with, why would you get Squee/Anger/Genesis when you could take three Survivals (assume they have not drawn one yet)? Even if you take their stupid engine, it doesn't prevent them from going Goyf Goyf Goyf Goyf, go.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

They need to drop creatures for those Goyfs, because they don't have Squee. That slows them down a lot. If they haven't drawn a Survival, grabbing three of those might be the best pick.

How much time are you allowed for a complicated search like that?

[Nightmare]

They need to drop creatures for those Goyfs, because they don't have Squee. That slows them down a lot. If they haven't drawn a Survival, grabbing three of those might be the best pick.

How much time are you allowed for a complicated search like that?

Compared to the other twenty creatures in the deck, Goyf is heads and shoulders better. In all the testing I've done with Di, he's glad to pitch a witness and two birds to go get three Goyfs, especially if he can play them that turn. I think your best bet (assuming you see 4 Survivals in the deck, or have Grip in hand, etc) is to make their chances of drawing that last Survival 47:1. Either that, or taking three Goyfs.

Depending on the judge, you have around a minute to two for the search.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Well you'd be able to tell if they have Survival, so I guess pre-emptively knocking that out would be your first pick when available.

Taking out 3 Goyfs might be the correct call. I think the card needs a lot of testing in each match-up to see what your best move is.

[Slay]

You keep saying "high curve". 3 mana is not top-heavy for the deck, its the average CC.

3 mana is a high average cc. When a little less than a third of your deck can't be played before turn 3, your deck is not going to work in Legacy. Or, at the very least, work the way you want it to. You just won't have mana for the cards you want.

None of the alternatives actually do those things, and this is what you're argument is missing. I never suggested cutting Matron or Ringleader or Warchief. Piledriver CAN do tons of damage, but Piledriver is actually much more conditional than Earwig Squad is. The second Wort is also conditional, as it's legendary.

It may actually make more sense to cut another Piledriver for the second Earwig, rather than the second Wort. Either way, there are spots up for grabs that Earwig may be better than.

Piledriver would hold the same role as Earwig Squad, and would be the only thing I would want to cut for it. However, Piledriver always costs 2, where Earwig Squad costs 3 probably a little more than half the time. Piledriver also costs 1 with a Warchief out, and can swing in that turn, as opposed to Earwig Squad which costs 4 if you want to use it as a hasty beater with Warchief. It replaces Piledriver's role poorly, and is really crappy to find when you flip it with a Ringleader you didn't Vial/Lackey in.

Secondly, when I say 'there's better alternatives', I'm not talking about slots in the deck, I'm talking about cards in your hand that you want to cast with mana open. If I had the choice between casting Earwig Squad and basically any other card in the deck, I would almost never take the Earwig Squad. Your 3cc and 4cc slots are jammed full of cards that are better than Earwig Squad by orders of magnitude. Unless you're playing a deck in which Earwig Squad is really good against, you'll only want to be casting Earwig Squad when there's no other cards in your hand, because it costs enough that it won't be until the late game when you'll be able to cast it and other things on the same turn. Think about it. It's the worst card in your deck, but by the nature of its ability, you want to be playing it as fast as possible. That's about the worst dissynergy I could think of, tribal or not.

A turn 2 Survival on the draw means they don't get pieces online til turn 3, and don't get stuff on the board until turn 4. That's enough time for a turn 2-3 Earwig to tip the game in your favor; even if they grab Squee and Anger, you can still remove 3 Goyfs that otherwise would be hitting the board soon, and you now have a 5/3 to face off the remaining Goyf. Against an active Survival, any early to mid Earwig is the opposite of conditional; an early Survival means their deck is available to them, meaning any cards you take away are cards they otherwise would have tutored for next turn.

Conditional means it's got to have prerequisite conditions before it's good, or even playable. Early-to-mid game against Survival without them having an active Survival, hitting your land drops, hell, even having a creature that can swing through reliably, all of those are conditions that make the scenario in which Earwig Squad is better than the other cards in your deck plausible. How often are you going to draw a 2-of in the early-mid game without them having a Survival active(which is a 4-of for them), with enough early creatures(because they play creatures too) that you can actually cast it for its prowl cost? How likely is this scenario? Compared to the likelihood that they get a Survival turn 2-4, and start cranking out dudes, and you have to cast your good creatures to have a shot at winning. In this scenario Piledriver is infinitely better, not because it's necessarily bigger, but because it costs less so you can actually play a bunch of spells on your turn instead of playing one spell a turn till you hit 6 mana. Not to mention, once your opponent gets any kind of actual creature threats, your Earwig Squad will always cost 5, unless your opponent is racing you, which he might do because you made your deck slow as fuck.

Something else you're overlooking is that if you feel the necessity to cut some Piledrivers, you make the chance that you'll be able to play Earwig Squad for its Prowl cost even smaller because you don't have any creatures that can swing. Maybe you kept a few lands and a few big creatures and a Vial in your opening hand. in this scenario, Earwig Squad is terrible. Kiki-jiki terrible. Goblin Goon terrible. It's a dead card if you don't have the creatures to get the damage in with, and you only have 10-12 creatures that cost 2 or less now. Those aren't good odds for you, especially if your opponent also has a creature.
-Slay

[JDunkin00]

I just feel that earwig comes in too late for his effect to answer the decks he is most needed against and does too little against the rest. He is fine for removing sb hate game 2 and 3 but so would duress and thoughtseize. Cause without it in hand it doesn't matter anyway. Granted he is nice against EE and deed. Piledriver is also far more efficient for after warchief plays and matron chain into piledriver. Also this might get me flamed but borrowing some extended tech what about threaten for an anti goyf play. They are minus 1 big blocker and ups your damage race. Just sayin.

[Tacosnape]

Also this might get me flamed but borrowing some extended tech what about threaten for an anti goyf play. They are minus 1 big blocker and ups your damage race. Just sayin.

This didn't work for me in Standard, if you'll recall my Jaya Sligh getting trounced by Daniel. Somehow I doubt it will work in Legacy.

As far as I'm concerned, the best solution to Tarmogoyf that Vial Goblins has access to is Warren Weirding, if you run black.

Goblin Grenade, of all things, has served me decently well without black, considering that enchantments rarely if ever hit the yard in Tarmogoyf matches, and by the time all the other types have hit, it's usually turn four or so and you can try to simply overwhelm the Goyf (Or add point number six with a Sharpshooter, Fanatic, or Gempalm.)