[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Alfred]

You also play Saffi Eriksdotter from time to time. But from what I saw of that meta, it seems that tricks of that sort are the name of the game. And there is no arguing with results. You have a lot of anti-aggro stuff, and I suppose that is good when the common combos are all graveyard dependant (for which the deck is well equipped to handle).

But I warn other people reading this that you are taking your chances when you get too creative with the basic strengths ofthe deck. Phaerimm's Wg deck, for example, does not have Karakas at all, so there is a lot given up for access to stuff like Wasteland and Gofy. He can do this stuff because it keeps his opponents (who see him and this deck almost weekly) on their toes.

Lemme 'splain

Ones
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Mana Tithe
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial

Twos
3 True Believer
4 Serra Avenger
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Threes
3 Stonecloaker
3 Mangara of Corondor

Fours
3 Cataclysm

Land
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
3 Flagstones of Trokair
11 Plains

sb:
3 Glowrider
1 Mana Tithe
4 Orim's Chant
1 Jotun Grunt
3 Tivadar of Thorn
3 Oblivion Ring

This is my general purpose build. It is strong against anything with graveyard dependence, (including Threshold) as almost all of the hate is in the main. If you are expecting CounterTop Thresh to be a big factor (does Baseruption usually have this feature?) I think I would put O.rings in the Mana Tithe spot. Mana Tithe is really only for the combo matchup anyway, and the Oblivion Rings have been very, very good to me so far.

The basics are:

-Mangara
-Karakas
-Stonecloaker
-Cataclysm
-Jitte
-graveyard hate (I have Stonecloaker, Samurai of the Pale Curtain, and Jotun Grunt in this role)
-mana denial (I have Rishidan Port, Mana Tithe, Cataclysm, Mangara, and Glowrider for this)
Everything else is a metagame call.

In general, using creatures for the disruption (Glowrider instead of Thorn of Amethyst, Grunt instead of Tormod's Crypt, etc.) creates versatility in place of speed. This situation means that you want either a Mana Tithe or Orim's Chant in the opening draw against TES, Belcher, Breakfast, etc. It gives you a turn or two to get one of the creature hosers down. If that happens you can attack while delaying them more so you are usually in pretty good shape.

Samurai and Grunt together is not such a big deal.

Four Karakas' is occasionally a problem, but I sacrifice it to Cataclysm a lot. And the opponent simply must do something about it in a LOT of games or they are going to lose.

I know that the green splash is generally poo-poo'd by D&T players, but when it comes to beating Counterbalance decks, there is simply nothing better than Krosan Grip. I know that Oblivion Ring can get rid of it, but the problem with Counterbalance-based decks is that they usually have the ability to supliment the troublesome enchantment with free countermagic.

Another sort of odd thing in this deck is the presence of Jotun Grunts, and the absence of fetches. If you splashed a single Savannah along with Windswept Heaths (as well as Flagstones), you could easily splash 3 Grips in the SB, and support the two Grunts you have maindeck a little better.

[Curby]

4 Tormod's Crypt(Meta choice:could be glowrider\true believer\silver knight\intrepid hero\kataki\preacher\spectral lynx)

Man, that's just hilarious. Cataclysm, then gimme your goyf!

If you splashed a single Savannah along with Windswept Heaths (as well as Flagstones), you could easily splash 3 Grips in the SB, and support the two Grunts you have maindeck a little better.

Splashing green for Grip would be wonderful if it didn't undermine our mana base. The problem is that big booms (Cat, geddon, Smokestack, etc.) are best played asymmetrically, and this applies not only to the board but the deck.

It's great if you play Smokestack or Cat and get rid of 3 of your opponent's lands. It's even better when you know they only have 10 "business" lands in the deck and the rest are fetches and utility lands. We play Cataclysm because we can abuse every aspect of it, but that's reduced when we splash.

If we're playing with 22 real lands, we can afford multiple Cataclysms per game and still keep our mana supply up. Once we start replacing business lands with fetches, losing three lands to each Cat might actually mean losing 4-5 lands, and you can't reliably keep the steady flow of mana. Also, Stifle and Wasteland start hurting you even more than they already do (I've lost a Mangara to a Stifled Karakas). It might be worth it if you see a lot of Countertop in your meta, but it doesn't really seem too good to me.

This is my general purpose build.

Hmm, interesting. A few pages back you were saying that the light blue splash is generally superior, but you're now saying that this is a more generally effective build. What changed?

3 cataclysm
3 lin sivvi, defiant hero

How often does this work? I thought the point of the deck was to get a control (Vial/Mangara) or aggro (Angel/Jitte) combo out and blow everything up. Blowing things up is what you generally don't want to do when playing tribal decks, as the exchanges become more symmetrical. Of course you can save Lin Sivvi for a quicker turnaround after the Cat hits, but I'm not sure that it's something to count on, nor should it be necessary in a deck built upon individual creature efficiency.

Random thought: I kinda like Auriok Champion (mentioned awhile back) in my burn-heavy, black-heavy meta. It's small, but wears Jitte as well as anyone else, and can push through blockers against a satisfying number of MUs here.

[Ceridan]

Hi Guys!

I would suggest that we include Epochrasite in DaT, it´s great with vial and cataclysm, and a real annoyance for the opponent (just keep comming back again).

How much luck have you had with the main decked true belivers? In most of my playtesting games true beliver is nothing but a 2/2 bear for 2 mana. I have recently tested Eight-and-a-half-tails with some success, sure it´s a bit mana exhaustive but it provides protection against STP and can make your critters unblockable, last night my epochrasite kept running past his blocker goyf for the win.

/Tobias

[Maëlig]

How often does this work? I thought the point of the deck was to get a control (Vial/Mangara) or aggro (Angel/Jitte) combo out and blow everything up. Blowing things up is what you generally don't want to do when playing tribal decks, as the exchanges become more symmetrical. Of course you can save Lin Sivvi for a quicker turnaround after the Cat hits, but I'm not sure that it's something to count on, nor should it be necessary in a deck built upon individual creature efficiency.

Well, as I said I fully recognise the disinergy here. Only I think that it is not that bad and not that important anyways. Here are the main reasons.
Stats : In a game lasting about 13 turns (where you would draw a total of 20 cards), you have an 33% chance to hit both cards. The 67% other times, you'll usually be quite happy to find any of those two cards.
Sideboard strategy : In my experience, cataclysm gets sided out quite often, against thresh (and god knows there's alot of thresh out there) and other fish-like deck. This further reduces the chance to hit both cards.
Planning : If you have cataclysm in hand before you start running the rebel engine, then you will play it first and then recover rapidly with Lin. This is actually a very nice way to play it.
Complementarity : Lin is usually in MU where cataclysm is bad (aggro-control to simplify).
Not to mention the fact that if you get the rebel engine started, then you're usually on your way for the win and you don't need cataclysm anyways.

So basically the only time I see this would be bad would be if you drew cataclysm after having started the rebel engine and in such a board position that you would have benefited from cataclysm if you had not done so.

The important thing to note is that the addition of Lin doesn't really require to add some cards that are below normal efficiency, which would make the deck worse that the classic build in case we don't hit Lin (thus increasing instability). Knight of the holy nimbus is good by himself, and I know some people running it in D&T without the rebel engine. OK, the CoK is a bit random without Lin, but rarely useless either.


Ceridan, epochrasite is not bad (especially in a meta with lots of board control), but the important thing to ask is whether it is better than a card already in the deck. What would you take out for it?
Same with Eight-and-a-half-tails, where would you put him?
There are actually quite alot of contestants at the 2 mana creatures.

[Finn]

Originally Posted by Finn
This is my general purpose build.

Hmm, interesting. A few pages back you were saying that the light blue splash is generally superior, but you're now saying that this is a more generally effective build. What changed?

I rediscovered how important Glowrider is from the sideboard. I had been happy with Brainstorm and Stifle, but I did not like Ponder. In fact, I am not liking Ponder in general these days. Anyway, with the redesigned sb of Orim's Chant over Sphere of Resistence (now probably Thorn of Amethyst), I found that I generally had enough turns to land a Glowrider against fast combo. And when it resolves against combo or control, Glowrider is so much better. He is easier to side in since you don't have to recount your threats, and generally I find myself siding him in against a lot of opponents that I would not have given Thorn in its place. And the guy wins games - a lot of them.

And Glowrider sucks in the Wu build.

[Ceridan]

Hi Maelig!
I would replace samurai of the pale curtain with Epochrasite because running both is bad synergy. I´m thinking of replacing 2 eight-1/2-tails with 2 wingshards... Most of my meta runs lots creatures (goyf, mascara-bob, finkel, eternal witness etc).

The rebell-engine are really nice, but I think that it may take up too many slots in DaT, (but I have run it in my angel stompy with some success).

What do you guys think is the best SB? my recent SB is:
4 Abolish
4 Rule of Law
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Wing Shards (these are the weakest I think)

(p.s. I can´t understand that you dared to remove the Stonecloaker! He´s one of the decks best creatures because of his synergy, and the spot graveyard removal is great at tricking goyfs and against the increasing survival builds. And the Stonecloakers ability to make your creatures fizzle removal spells+ mangara i wonderful. Stonecloaker weights up some of the losses of not having card drawing spells).

[Curby]

I took Death and Taxes to 1st out of 25 against a pretty random meta this past Friday. Report here

Unfortunately, the casual house rules mean I can't use this deck again in a tourney there (they like to encourage new deck designs) but it certainly performed as advertised!

[Finn]

I enjoyed reading your report. I can sympathize with the portion devoted to what happens when you have only a Stonecloaker. I have had that happen every once in a while, and it is frustrating. You almost want to not count it as a creature.

It seems that you will not be piloting the deck again, but I want to mention that, if you do, a simple way to beef up D+T against a meta that you suspect of being little to no combo is to simply replace the True Believers with Silver Knights, and be sure to have the Oblivion Rings in the main over Mana Tithe.

With those changes, you have as good a shot as any deck could reasonably boast, especially in the underwhelming metagame you wrote about.

[Curby]

Mana Tithe was actually surprisingly useful, and I imagine it would get even better with Ports in the deck. If I were to replace it, I'd probably look for another 1-drop critter. I'd say Mom or Lions, but they seem like outdated choices now. I'm not sure that I need 4 Rings in the main anyway. On the other hand, I can't keep my current count of 20 land if I'm going to be adding Ports (and diluting my White sources). On the third hand, Ports and Tithes go well together so taking out Tithes for Ports is a bit odd. I do notice that I often have mana untapped though, so I should be able to make good use of Ports during their turn.

I like this deck too much to dismantle it, so I'll keep it around to play at other venues. =)

[Srovex]

Hello!

I have built this following WB D&T list:

Land:
4x Scrubland
3x Windswept Heath
2x Bloodstained Mire
3x Karakas
4x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Flagstones

Creatures:
3x Isamaru
3x Stonecloaker
3x Mangara
2x Jötun Grunt
4x Dark Confidant
4x Serra Avenger

Other:
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Vindicate
3x Cataclysm
3x Duress
3x Jitte
4x AEther Vial

I have few problems with the list.
1) Mana base.
Is having 5 fetches too much for recovery from Cataclysm? should I cut the mires in favor of more Flagstones? I'm also afraid of Dragon Stompys blood moon effects, should I add more basics? In tournament I recently participated I faced alot of wasteland effects. Should I add 4th Karakas? Maybe on SB?

2) 3- offs
Deck does look really janky and bad deck design for it's many 3 offs. Any reasonable cuts to be made? Altough this kind of design is really helpful against decks packing pithing needle, meddling mage or cabal therapy (whit out peek effects). It also makes the deck more fun to play as each game is different. It's also fun to win, so what's your suggestions?

3) Epochrasite
I would love to add him to this deck, 4/4 beater thats hard to get rid off could be perfect (with cataclysm it could be even more better). I think its leagal play to drop him in on turn 3 with vial as 4/4? But what to cut, deck is really tight as it is.

4) SB
This one needs more explanation I think.
Where I came from the meta (27 players) is really random here is some breakdown:
tendrils-combo (iggy & TES): 2
muc: 2
affinity: 3
goblins: 3
landstill: 2
threshold: 1
also: 41land, belcher, tog, enchantress, dragon stompy as one offs... and many various aggro.
History has also seen some pox-decks running rampart. It's not safe to assume that this is the absolute meta as legacy is at huge uproar here in Finland and high quality decks are already starting to man the top8 slots. I's expecting even more furious match ups in becoming tournaments.

Still most of the meta is really some updated table top deck which I think this type of deck should steam roll, as they are not prepared to such strong attack on both air and ground combined with LD (mangara, vindicate and cataclysm can really punish over extension and mana screw).
I also had to fight some Pernicious deed / graveyard decks.

Current SB:
4x Engineered Plague
4x Tormods Crypt (this could be cut to less as I already have grunts and stonecloackers, maybe Withered Wretch? If mana base can support it)
Rest of the places need help. I was thinking:
1x Duress
2x Cabal Therapy
1x Vindicate
Strong package against combo (-4x StoP from MB)
3x Diabolic Edict / Smother (which is better)
to fight aggro decks. (-3x Duress)
I was thinking Edict because in that tournament I lost one game to Kodama of the North Tree. (could have double blocked but trample damage was enough)
With this SB I'm really afraid of Dragon Stompy. Is there any "I win" cards against them?
Other SB options include: EE, Tivadar of Thorn, Thorn of Amethyst, Glowrider, Pithing needle and Disenchant/ Seal of Cleansing (which one is better?).
Also, it's note worthy that I could MB atleast 2 Engineered Plague. But what to cut?

I hope I didn't make complete ass out off myself, my first post after all.

Thanks you for all your help! /S

[zulander]

Why not play thoughtseize over duress?

[technogeek5000]

Is this deck still the powerhouse it was when Phaerimarchlord was playing it. I wanted to make the BW list because the only thing i need to buy are avenger karakas and mangara but if i invest the money in it i want to know if the deck can still beat nearly everything in the format like it used to.

[Srovex]

Why not play thoughtseize over duress?

Mainly 3 reasons:
1) Duress has worked good enough for me and I'm well prepared to fight creatures with stop, vindicate, mangara and jitte. As well as traditional creature combat
2) Lifeloss from fetches, Confidant(having lot of 3 drops and some cataclysms don't help on this) and 'seize can really add up. I'd like to use jitte counters to boost my or kill opposing creatures, rather than try to offset lifeloss from my own actions.

and last but not least 3) I don't own any and buying them when facing above reasons... just no. I rather spend the money getting duals, fetches and tarmos I still don't own.

Good enough reasons?

[Ceridan]

Recently I have been playing Sensei´s Divining Top in my build (along with 3 fetches), and if you are splashing for mascara-Bob i would make it a autoinclude (4 damage from a Cataclysm is a punch in the face). Urborg, Tomb of Yogurt (Tuborg) might be a good card in a W/b build. The black cards you get access to is really nice, but the splash is really messing up the manabase of the deck (and often some of the synergys). Often you get a Duress in the starting hand, but no black mana (or no white mana for the WW-cost creatures).

And I think that 4 Jötun Grunts in main. I have never had a problem with it and most people are very eager to counter it (and when they see another one comming after they countered the first they just get sad/desperate).

I can´t imagine playing Engineered Plague in the sideboard of this deck, Goblins is not a very hard deck to beat, and if you are afraid of the you could use Tivadar of Thorn instead (he´s good againt other red beat-decks and you can abuse him with karakas since he´s a legend).

Epochrasite is a really nice creature, and when you abuse him with vials and Cataclysm he has a really cool synergy with the rest of the deck. But the problem is that most of the time he´s just a 1/1 creature for 2 mana... One way to get the most out of his ability is to run Cabal Therapy instead of Duress, then you can sacrifice him to have him come back as a fat guy some turns later.

[zulander]

So you've been playing doran.dec lol.

[Ceridan]

I've been using a new list not quite he D&T you all know anymore.W/b/g with Bob,vindicate,duress,doran,teeg,goyf. So far quite fun.

Well then post your list I´m most worried about DaT ending up like mixer where you just pour in your non-brainer brokeness creatures and press the button (loosing all the minor tech-synergies that makes the deck fun to play with).

[technogeek5000]

Zulander i see that you sigged my last post and im sorta wondering why. Phaerimarchlord won countless local tournaments with this deck, won a few dual events, and toped 4/8 at a whole bunch of other events so its not like the deck was bad. It had bad matchups against combo only which is remedied by adding a second color so when i was testing this deck with the black splash it absolutely smashed anything i played it against. Im just wondering if it can still do that in the current meta.

[zulander]

won a few dual events

Hrm, I didn't know that. Do you happen to have a link to these events?

[technogeek5000]

here was one that i remember. Ill edit the post when i find the rest of them because i know theres more.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=6072

Edit: not a dual but another one i found http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=5937

[zulander]

here was one that i remember. Ill edit the post when i find the rest of them because i know theres more.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=6072

Edit: not a dual but another one i found http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=5937

Oh, I thought you meant dual land drafts, not duals from the local $5-10 tournament.