[Deck] Ichorid

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Thats exactly what this Deck need, no attention not too much SB hate and a good player.

Ha ha ha, I guess we should get this on the down low. Although a major problem is that the hate for this deck is also the hate for Breakfast and Threshold. GY hate is going to be played regardless.

[Maagler]

I just placed 5-8 at the Mass Hadley tournament with this list:

4x Ichorid
4x cabal therapy
4x breakthrough
2x gamble
4x golgari grave troll
3x deep analysis
1x cephalid sage
4x lion's eye diamond
2x dread return
4x putrid imp
1x flame kin zealot
1x cephalid sage
4x bridge from bellow
4x stinkweed inp
4x narcomoeba
4x gemstone mine
4x city of brass
2x golgari thug
4x cephalid coliseum

side:
4x leyline of he void
2x ray of revelation
2x ancient grudge
3x chain of vapor
4x chalice of the void

there was a good turnout of 36 people. I also placed fifth with a similar list at the first Wareham Tourney (25 people):

3x Ichorid
3x cabal therapy
4x breakthrough
2x gamble
4x golgari grave troll
3x deep analysis
1x cephalid sage
4x lion's eye diamond
3x dread return
4x putrid imp
1x flame kin zealot
2x cephalid sage
2x golgari thug
4x bridge from bellow
4x stinkweed inp
4x narcomoeba
4x gemstone mine
4x city of brass
4x cephalid coliseum

side:
4x leyline of he void
2x ray of revelation
2x ancient grudge
3x chain of vapor
4x chalice of the void

It seems I always make it into top 8 only to scrub out and loose. I am always happy to see the thresh match up, and I saw a lot of it yesterday. I also like the first list better as I never recurred a sage in all the matches that I played, and I always sided it out for anti hate cards.

Playing against thresh I would usually side like this:
-1 ichorid
-1 sage
-1 zealot
-1 lion's eye diamond
-1 deep analysis
-2 gamble
-1 golgari thug
-1 cabal therapy

+4 chalice of the void
+3 chain of vapor
+2 Ancient grudge

It seemed to work but I am wondering if anyone has any other suggestions.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

How did City of Traitors work out for you? Don't you need to ensure more sources of colored mana in the build? It makes casting things like PImp and gamble less consistent I would think. I don't see the acceleration traitors gives you as relevant, but I have been only playing this deck for a day and you Top 8'ed...

[xsockmonkeyx]

How did City of Traitors work out for you?

He meant City of Brass. At least I hope he did.

[edgewalker]

How did City of Traitors work out for you? Don't you need to ensure more sources of colored mana in the build? It makes casting things like PImp and gamble less consistent I would think. I don't see the acceleration traitors gives you as relevant, but I have been only playing this deck for a day and you Top 8'ed...

I'm hoping he meant City of Brass

[Maagler]

sorry thats what i meant (city of brass) fixed.

[Jaynel]

You have Cephalid Sage listed twice in both of those lists, what's up?

[Rood]

I would just like to say, congrats Maagler on making the Top 8 once again, it really sucked we had to get matched up first round I was hoping we could play in the final match

[Brehn]

(lists)

- Both lists are only 58 cards, and there is a serious lack of Golgari Thug. I'll just assume you're playing 10 dredgers. :]
- How did Gamble turn out for you? Have you had the problem of a Coliseum+Gamble-hand?
- Also, both sideboards contain 16 cards.

I also like the first list better as I never recurred a sage in all the matches that I played, and I always sided it out for anti hate cards.

- I've found Cephalid Sage to be incredibly useful vs any kind of Aggro and Combo. What matchups did you see? Are the Hadley and Wareham metas dominated by Threshold and Landstill, where Sage doesn't shine at all?
- I also like the first list better. How can you justify running only 3 Ichorids? If you want to run multiple Sages, cut the Gambles. Sage is run to make Ichorid 2 turns faster (improve Aggro/Combo), Gamble is run to combat hate and to increase your chances to draw a keepable hand (improve Control/Board Control). Those two seem sort of counter-intuitive, especially if you're cutting essential cards like Ichorid and Therapy to run both.

Playing against thresh I would usually side like this:
-1 ichorid
-1 sage
-1 zealot
-1 lion's eye diamond
-1 deep analysis
-2 gamble
-1 golgari thug
-1 cabal therapy

+4 chalice of the void
+3 chain of vapor
+2 Ancient grudge

It seemed to work but I am wondering if anyone has any other suggestions.

- Siding out Ichorid seems sooooo wrong. In conjunction with bridges, Ichorid is the main reason you win against Threshold. Also, your second lists only plays 3 of them, did you also side one out playing that one?
- Looks like you faced a lot of non-white-Threshold. Dread Return with Golgari Grave-Troll as your only reasonable target seems pretty meh otherwise. Did you steal some games vs UGr/UGb doing this? I've never tested this strategy, mainly because the white version is way more popular here, but isn't cutting a Therapy counter-intuitive? If I want to reanimate a Troll, I'd like to know first if my opponent is holding a FoW.
- Gamble should be much more useful postboard, being able to grab the hate you need. On the play, you'd have 6 Chalices in your deck. However, you're siding it out.
- I don't know how much hate you're expecting, but siding 9 cards might be overkill.

With my current build (your first list -2 Gamble -1 Deep Anal +1 Thug +2 Careful Study) and this sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Gamble (try it! you want it postboard, but you don't need it preboard)
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Darkblast
my boarding strategy against non-black Threshold is:
-1 Golgari Thug
-2 Dread Return
-1 Cephalid Sage
-1 Flame-Kin Zealot
-1 Deep Analysis
-1 Careful Study
+3 Gamble
+3 Chalice of the Void
+1 Ancient Grudge

and against Threshold with black, an additional:
-1 Careful Study
-1 Breakthrough/Cabal Therapy/Lion's Eye Diamond (haven't figured that one out yet)
+2 Chain of Vapor

So, while you're siding out Gamble, I'm siding it in. It still needs testing though, and I'll definitely consider leaving Returns in against UGr.

[dlevsApiJ]

I just cutted the Gambles, they doesnt look good enough to me..
My "new" list:

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [5E] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
1 [FS] Dakmor Salvage*

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
1 [TO] Cephalid Sage

// Spells
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [TO] Deep Analysis **
2 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond


// Sideboard
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ray of Revelation
4 Chalice of the Void

* I like him. When you start with land -> breakthrough, you can dredge him to dredge 1 turn only 2 instead of 4-6, but then 1 turn later (comes into play tapped), of you have a DA (and I play 4 (maybe wanna go to 3)), you dredge for 8-12 more!
** Maybe wanna cut 1 for a Dread Return,, what should be the best?

Oh, and I like your Darkblast, but when do you need it? It removes your own Bridges,, and the only creature I really wanna kill with it is Yixlid Jailer, but when its in your grave you can´t... Against which creatues do you need it?

[Maagler]

@Brehn:
You are right about the gambles, they should be kept for the hate. I played a lot of UGw thresh, and their main form of hate included EE. I also lost to Roodmistah in finals who had a hard hitting tormods crypt.

Thanks for the suggestions on the side. Could i get your deck list?

fixed the card numbers in the deck
(-1 chain of vapor, +2 golgari thug)

[Brehn]

List:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel
3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Putrid Imp
2 Deep Analysis
2 Dread Return
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage
3 Careful Study
====
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Gamble
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Darkblast

After getting beaten by Iggy Pop, Dragon Stompy, Mono-red Goblins and janky Poison Sliver Aggro with no graveyard hate involved, I've decided to play anything explosive this deck can offer, which includes Cephalid Sage and Careful Study. The Gambles in the sideboard are not thoroughly tested yet, but it seems quite logical to me. Also, note the Tarnished Citadel for more consistent Gambles. The following slots are debatable:

main:
1 Careful Study
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
might be replaced totally or partially with any combination of
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Golgari Thug
1 Dread Return

sb:
1 Darkblast
1 Gamble
might be replaced totally or partially with any combination of
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Simic Sky Swallower (if you want a reanimator target that just wins the game if it hits, I think this is the way to go)

[Muradin]

After getting beaten by Iggy Pop, Dragon Stompy, Mono-red Goblins and janky Poison Sliver Aggro with no graveyard hate involved...

This is really strange. I've been playing Ichorid in several tournaments during the last few months and did quite well with it. Nevertheless the few loss I had were against nearly the same decks you named here. I lost to Affinity with 4 crypts main, Iggy Pop(Leyline), Dragon Stompy and a 5 color Slivers Fundeck tuned a bit for tournament play( had my Breakthrough countered with Force of Will removing Sliver Queen, then proceeded to love against "Darkheart Sliver".)

In general I think that Careful Study is preboard in most situations superior to Gamble. There should be room for 2-4 of them in the maindeck as they really smooth out your drws by digging for lands, discarding dredgers and well, drawing cards. In general my list is Brehn's list -1 Cephalid Sage + 1 Deep Analysis. My Board is also different, but thats just personal preference.

[Maagler]

I have also considered Simic Sky Swallower as a side slot. I will try out your list thank you for posting it.

I have found that the games against dragon stompy are almost always an auto loss, especially when they know what you are playing. The only way that you can beat them under a trinisphere is with ichorid. but they can usually deal with them with a needle.

[Brehn]

FYI: Needle on Ichorid doesn't work. Needle stops activated abilites, Ichorid has a triggered ability. I've made a post about the Dragon Stompy matchup on page 40.

[Lukas Preuss]

It is quite possible that those losses you guys talk about have more to do with wrong plays/wrong mulligan descisions than with your decklists, your cardchoices or the matchups.

You simply should not lose to Dragon Stompy, Sliver, IGGy Pop, whatever preboard. I have played Ichorid again at the last monthly Iserlohn tournament, and my only losses were the mirror (drew shitty and he didn't... that was basically what descided the match) and a black deck packing 4 Leyline, 4 Extirpate, and Jotun Grunt in the SB... and he always drew multiple pieces of disruption in games 2 and 3... otherwise I would have won. Sadly, I missed T8 because of my shitty tiebreakers after that loss.

My point is, that this deck is still one of the strongest decks around. During my third or forth round I played against Andre Müller (?), who is a big German pro in Extended or something, and won through Leyline and Extirpate. During round six I won through Yxlid Jailer, Extirpates, and Engineered Explosives.

Oh, and Yxlid Jailer has been becoming a very big issue over here... nearly all the aggro Control decks are nowadays black based (UGb Threshold, Baseruption, Fish, whatever), and their hate card of choice is Yxlid Jailer. For that reason my board now contains 3 Contagion to take care of them. I usually board 3 Chain of Vapor, 3 Contagion against any black based aggro control deck. Contagion was awesome all day in Iserlohn, and I am sure it will prove itself again in the future.


Edit: Oh, and since you talk about it: One of my other wins was against Dragon Stompy... Game 1 you crush them, game two they might have Crypt before you win (although sometimes they have trouble casting it through their own Trinispheres), but game three you Therapy them for Crypt (and hit two, just as I did yesterday) and win from there on. Trinisphere is almost never a problem... just keep Ichorids and zombie tokens coming.

[Daze]

Games against Dragon Stompy seem to depend heavily on draw and dice. If they get down their hate before you get into dredging, you're usually screwed. Trinisphere and Magus of the Moon both shut you down, and you won't have enough time to slow-dredge them. Thus, you need a fast hand (no discard to maximum handsize in oder to discard) and from my limited experience, Therapy for Dragon has been great. Dragon (and Jitte) are the only big threats they have, everything else can be handled with the Bridge-tokens. But Pit-Dragon gives them a real fast clock and your only blockers are the Narcs. "Tomb, Mox, Mox, Pit Dragon, go. Untap, draw, Mountain, Seething Song, Swing for 20."

[spirit of the wretch]

Jep, if Dragon Stompy gets the nuts draw you're pretty much screwed. But that's a big IF. First turn Chalice/Blood Moon on the play followed by a random thread will almost surely kill you. On the other hand their mana base sucks hardcore, so there's always a chance of radomly winning because they screw/flood.
I played the MU only once and had no problems winning it.

Here's something for you guys to discuss:

I saw some Akroma tech in Extendet Ichorid.decs and it seemed pretty nice (of course, in Extendet you simply can't handle her) and now suggest the following build:

MB:
10 dredger
3 Dread Returns
3 Brainstorm
Zealot

SB:
1 Sage
1 Akroma

I really feel you only need the Sage in the combo MU and therefore I like my mainboard to be as consistent as possible ( => BS > Gamble). Akroma seems like a fine SB card against Goblins/Affinity/random Aggro.
But why not simply reanimate a Zealot and win?
Akroma doesn't need Bridges! Affinity and Goblins easily manage to remove them and Akroma is geat defence and a strong clock against these decks. Plus neither of these decks play StoPs and therefore basically can't handle her.
What do you think?

[thejack]

Am I the only one who prefers to let his opponent start, even pre board? This way you get a quick peek at the opponents mana base. If he opens with plains or forest just go nuts on your first turn if he opens with a blue based fetch or an Island just discard a dredger at end of turn to set you up to be able of dodging counters. The times this can go wrong are limited, T1 win from TES is all I can come up with. Why risk getting some discard outlet countered if you can get one at the end of turn 1 for free.
The hate from dragon stompy is hardly relevant if you choose to play like this. If they drop turn 1 trinisphere, it will slow you down at least 3 turns but whatever, your clock still beats their clock. If they open with a morph creature, just draw and see if you can rape his deck apart.

[dlevsApiJ]

Yeah, thats a very good argument I think, cause it sucks when your Breakthougk becomes countered and they get some 'Time Walks"...

And you draw your first turn a card, so you can start Discarding the first turn..

Is there anyone who has something to say about my last list? I'm not very happy with the 4th main DA and the 2nd Ray (I played 2 because of random enchantments as Moat/Confiment/etc. but never saw them on any tournament, and if you see them, its not more then once, so you can still go T8 :))

I was thinking about including Akroma/Simic Sky Swallower Sb, against fast aggro (with fanatic, goblins/zoo), who has a fast clock, and can kill there own creatures for your bridges. And mainboard, the 3rd Return.


EDIT: Is Leyline really needed side? The only time I boarded it in on tournament is in the Mirror and against Cephalid Breakfast, but in my meta, both are almost not played... And I think something as extra bounce/enchantments destroy/creature destroy (stupid Jailer) (like Contagion) is much better... The Leylines are more "nice cards" to have, against grave-combo decks, and decks with fanatic or something.. But you see much more things as Leyline/Crypt/Jailer,, so I would think about playing more cards against them..
Or am I completely wrong with this?