[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Galroth]

I'm sure techno is immensely sorry you misinterpreted his statement.

I'm also sure the humor of your sig and curt response to techno will garner you much appreciation in this thread dedicated to the development of D&T.

*Read as: stop wasting our space*

*The irony or my post is not lost on me*

[CleverPetriDish]

I guess D+T is not popular in Virginia. Around here it is so common that I have to deal with dedicated hate. Gloom has been showing up. I was going to paste a link to a quote I came across by Scrumdogg from the new card discussions about Maralen that went something like:

"Maralen could work...everyone thought that Death and Taxes would not work either until we kept losing to it."

But it was deleted at the request from one of his teammates. Who asks for something like that to be deleted? WTF is that all about?

Anyway, has anyone got the Black splash to work without losing Rishidan Port? The reason is that I thought Vindicate would be good since it could kill lands, but since you lose Port, what's the benefit? All the splash has gotten me was access to slighty better combo hate and Confidant. I'm about ready to return to mono-white.

[technogeek5000]

Zulander: He also topped 4 at kaddis last dual event. That with all the other evnets he won is nothing to laugh at.

Petridish: I have a black splash list that works fine with ports. here is what ive been using.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Serra Avenger
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Cataclysm
4 Aether Vial
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Scrubland
3 Vindicate
3 Plains
3 Windswept heath
4 Flooded strand
4 karakas
4 Rishadan Ports

Originally i was running thoughtsieze or thorn in place of vindicate but i liked having a out to anything so you dont get screwed against random shit like humlity. That and i was using wastes in place of ports which i realy liked but ports just seemed a slight bit stronger. Theres no stonecloaker as ive stated earlier in this or the old D&T thread. My list just uses up all my available mana and stonecloaker was always the weakest play.

Edit:

I'm sure techno is immensely sorry you misinterpreted his statement.

I'm also sure the humor of your sig and curt response to techno will garner you much appreciation in this thread dedicated to the development of D&T.

*Read as:

|^^^^^^^^^^^\||____
|.The STFU Truck..|||'""|""\__,_
| __GTFO 4ever_w_ l||__|__|__|)
|(@)@)"""""""**|(@)(@)**|(@)[/

Fixed

[raharu]

Would a creature base looking something like this work?

Mother of Runes x4
Isamaru x3

Dark Confidant x3
Oona's Prowler x3
Serra Avenger x4

Mangara of Corondor x3
Phyrexian Negator x3

23

Mother of Runes pretty much serves the same role here as CounterTop does in 'Gro, further protecting your creatures. I shoved in the Negators because they have synergy with the mana denial plan and the Mother of Runes, which I probably would have slipped into the deck anyway.

Also, how is Cataclysm against tri-color decks like threshold and whatnot? They would get to keep thier CounterTop engine, would they not? And a good number of lands, right? Do the duals count towards the land they have to sac (as in, would they get to keep a Tropical, a Tundra, and a basic Island, or would they have to sac all of thier non-basics, even if they didn't have another land in one of it's colors)?

I love the deck, even in it's WW form, but I have to splash black (MOAR VINDICATE!!!).

[Maëlig]

Would a creature base looking something like this work?

Mother of Runes x4
Isamaru x3

Dark Confidant x3
Oona's Prowler x3
Serra Avenger x4

Mangara of Corondor x3
Phyrexian Negator x3

I would tend to say that prowler is a bad choice in most decks that don't need a discard outlet (mostly because of the fact that you give your opponent one). You really want to have jotun as a 2-of, ESPECIALLY if you go for the black splash. MoR is not so good imo because it doesn't fit with cataclysm.

Also, how is Cataclysm against tri-color decks like threshold and whatnot? They would get to keep thier CounterTop engine, would they not? And a good number of lands, right? Do the duals count towards the land they have to sac (as in, would they get to keep a Tropical, a Tundra, and a basic Island, or would they have to sac all of thier non-basics, even if they didn't have another land in one of it's colors)?

What does cataclysm have to do with basic/non-basic lands? Each player keeps one land and sacrifices the rest, period.
But you're right, cataclysm is pretty useless against thresh (sometimes it even hurts you more than them). It's a card that ends up sided out quite often.


By the way, I've continued testing my version with Lin, and am very happy with it. I'll try to post some later on.

[raharu]

@#$%^&*()_!!!

Obviously I can't read cards anymore (I thought it was one of each color). WTF! This is the second time this month. I even glanced at the card online before I posted. WTF!!!

Also, would you keep a Jitte or a Vial if you had to play a Cataclysm? I would assume it's board dependent, but which is favored?

EDIT: why is Oona's Prowler a bad fit for the deck? I don't follow your argument. It's either a cheaper, less cost restrictive (1B vs. 1BB) but weaker Hypnotic Specter or a cheap threat that fits in with the deck's curve.

[Galroth]

Part of what makes Death and Taxes so efficient is how effective all of its creatures are independent of the present synergies. Isamaru without Karakas is still a good card. Likewith with Samurai of the Pale Curtain, Serra Avenger, and most of the other creatures. Death and Taxes also plays a fairly consistent game due to the high amount of threats that these creatures present.

Adding cards like Mother of Runes or Negator which are better with decks build around them probably isn't the way to go in my opinion. It's true that they work amazingly well together. But you need them together to really be good. They just don't fit with everything else well enough to dedicate that kind of space to these cards.

A question: how have the oblivion rings been working for everyone. I dedicated two slots, and they do work as both disenchants and creature removal. They're just not ever awesome for me. Sometimes I just want a couple of more creatures. For the moment they're staying in however. It just feels like a weaker slot. Opinions?

Current Sideboard:

4x Thorn of Amethyst - combo/cantrip hate
3x Glowrider - combo hate
3x TrueBeliever - combo hate
2x Jotun Grunt - thresh/graveyard hate
3x Tivadar of Thorn - goblin hate

I have been steam rolling combo with this sideboard + my 4 mana tithes main board. I'm quite satisfied with this set up presently. The oblivion rings did allow me to ignore Disenchant and Kataki in the sidebard.

[Ceridan]

Part of what makes Death and Taxes so efficient is how effective all of its creatures are independent of the present synergies. Isamaru without Karakas is still a good card. Likewith with Samurai of the Pale Curtain, Serra Avenger, and most of the other creatures. Death and Taxes also plays a fairly consistent game due to the high amount of threats that these creatures present.

Adding cards like Mother of Runes or Negator which are better with decks build around them probably isn't the way to go in my opinion. It's true that they work amazingly well together. But you need them together to really be good. They just don't fit with everything else well enough to dedicate that kind of space to these cards.

A question: how have the oblivion rings been working for everyone. I dedicated two slots, and they do work as both disenchants and creature removal. They're just not ever awesome for me. Sometimes I just want a couple of more creatures. For the moment they're staying in however. It just feels like a weaker slot. Opinions?

Current Sideboard:

4x Thorn of Amethyst - combo/cantrip hate
3x Glowrider - combo hate
3x TrueBeliever - combo hate
2x Jotun Grunt - thresh/graveyard hate
3x Tivadar of Thorn - goblin hate

I have been steam rolling combo with this sideboard + my 4 mana tithes main board. I'm quite satisfied with this set up presently. The oblivion rings did allow me to ignore Disenchant and Kataki in the sidebard.

How many Oblivion Rings do you run in main?

[Srovex]

That made me think, how good would Kataki be in present meta? I guess it absolutely annihilates those random affinitys you might encounter (it is fairly good deck still. It can suprise you pants down).
How goos it is against Dragon Stompy? Stax variants? Should I make some room for maybe 2-3 them in my SB?
It is even legend for karakas... yay

[Galroth]

I used to run it to obliterate affinity and stax. However, between aether vial and jitte D&Ts artifact count is substantial enough that it generally effects us as well. Now glowrider and truebeliever get to fill this sideboard slot. They tend to hurt more decks all around. Though I do question how many more decks truebeliever hates on that kataki. Obviously it's meta dependent. Thorny of Amethyst and Glowrider rip apart so many decks though! If it's not heavy creature and aggro, these two are almost always coming in.

[raharu]

A question: how have the oblivion rings been working for everyone. I dedicated two slots, and they do work as both disenchants and creature removal. They're just not ever awesome for me. Sometimes I just want a couple of more creatures. For the moment they're staying in however. It just feels like a weaker slot. Opinions?

Oblivion Ring is pretty much just seal of Vindicate. Are you still WW?

[Curby]

A question: how have the oblivion rings been working for everyone. I dedicated two slots, and they do work as both disenchants and creature removal. They're just not ever awesome for me. Sometimes I just want a couple of more creatures. For the moment they're staying in however.

I'm loving them enough to put 2 in the main and 2 in the side, though I wonder if I can cut it down to 1 in the side. One of D&T's main strengths is the individual awesomeness of its cards, and the Ring is great generic point removal. I think I'm a bit of a control player at heart, and the deck could undoubtedly do fine with some more critters in those slots. However, the point is to be able to survive on a couple of critters in play at a time (to keep the Cat from hurting us too much) and I seem to be doing alright.

To be fair, I'm only running 20 lands (I don't have any Ports or Wastelands to use yet). When I get Ports or Wastes, the introduction of colorless lands means I'll likely go up to 21-22 lands to keep the consistency of drawing white sources. If this forces me to cut critters, I might feel the hurt you're currently feeling with regards to threat density.

[technogeek5000]

I just wanted to share the board i am running currently.

4 Engineered Plauge
4 Leyline of Singularity
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst

Engineered plauge is obviously for tribal decks as they have tended to be a problem for the deck. LotV and Thorn should be self explanatory. The one I realy like is the leyline of the singularity. I brought the card up a long time ago as mainboard option to murder all forms of aggro which it did. Its also nifty against warrens combo as the tokens kill themselves due to the legendary rule. Leyline comes in against all forms of aggro because it is such a amazing beating against them. Goblins, D. Stompy, and other problematic aggro decks become extremely favorable once you have the singularity/karakas going.

Also i made the following changes to my maindeck:

-4 Rishadan Ports
-3 Cataclysm
-1 Plains

+4 Wasteland
+3 Thoughtsieze
+1 Flagstones of Trokair

[Curby]

Hey, neat. Leyline of Singularity does work quite well with Karakas and prevents them from doing nasty multiples (e.g. multiple Phyrexian Arena). I also note that you took out Cataclysm, but for decks packing the Cat I'm wondering if it's so good. Leyline makes them keep dupes in hand, but the point of any sweeper is to get them to over-commit so not only is the sweeper highly asymmetric, it makes it more difficult for them to recover. Any other thoughts on it in the mono-white build?

[Barook]

Leyline of Singularity has also awesome synergy with Oblivion Ring. Remove something from the game, wait for them resolving a second copy of the card, play a second Ring, targeting something else.

Due to the legend rule, both Rings go to the graveyard, but the remove trigger is still on the stack. Your opponent loses both cards to the legend rule and the new target is removed from the game once and for all because the return trigger resolves before the remove trigger. Good times.

[Finn]

Guys, I don't want to shut off ideas, but Leyline of Singularity goes into a different deck. It has been discussed a few times already. And while it is cool, you can't go putting cool things in a deck and expect it to play aggro consistently.

What I would like very much to see is a viable black splash deck. Has anyone done this?

[Galroth]

I have not tested any splash color in Death and Taxes, so my opinion is very suspect. However, I'm extremely hesitant to splash a color to Death and Taxes because I do not think there is much to be gained in any potential splash.

The black splash is interesting, and it does seem a bit more tested than the others for obvious reason. Blue would be played for the sifting ability of brainstorm and counterspell, daze, and force of will. Unfortunately the splash is too limited to make truly good use of daze and force of will and for those reasons seems a little unviable. Red... nobody has thought of or tested because it doesn't seem to help the problem match-ups. Green does give us Teeg, and Goyf. But in my testing Control match-ups and opposing Goyfs are much less of a concern than... the true nemesis... combo. And this is why black is being considered.

Death and Taxes really isn't built for a heavy splash. Too much double white to support. And I think it should stay this way. So only light splashes for a single colored mana are are probably involved.

A breakdown of what black offers: double black mana and double white mana is too hard to support, so hymn to tourach is out. Same with Nantuko Shade and the other black beaters just really don't offer anything that astounding which would warrant the splash for black's beaters. It's really for 3 cards. Dark Confidant for the card advantage and an otherwise solid creature drop. And your anti combo set-up of Duress, Thoughtseize, or possibly Cabal Therapy. These only require a single black mana so the splash can remain light. Now, are these cards really so much better than other possible card advantage and combo disruption? Well Dark Confidant is badass card draw. White really doesn't offer anything that could even come close to equaling this. But it doesn't actually directly help with the problem matchups of combo. Are Duress and Thoughtseize really so much better than Thorn of Amethyst, Glowrider and TrueBeliever? They do come down faster, they might even be more versatile. But do they warrant an splash?

I don't know what the latest statistics were, but I believe combo generally compromises only about 15% of the field. Now I don't want an auto loss to combo, so I board heavily against it. But I just really don't see the splash being that much better to risk it. If one tries to argue that control is also an issue, then I would think Thorn and Glowrider are just as good against control. I really can't bring myself to justify this. It's a close call, but I'm still left wondering why you'd risk this (much less pay for the duals :P).

2 cents... mine.

[TheRock]

From the very limited amount of playing that I've done with the black splash, I will gladly tell you that Cabal Therapy was the first card I added to the deck - not Vindicate, not Confidant, not Duress, not Leyline. Therapy is far from dead against aggro and control and it's great in being able to remove problematic cards that your current hand may not be able to stop or handle.

This deck is made for that kind of card. It's simply not that fast and it plays enough creatures so that you can two whacks when you need it. Many Rock decks have been successful in the past because they were good at discarding the problem cards and just swinging through the slop that the opponent had left. That philosophy obviously won't completely apply to a deck that wants to use a Mangara lock or swing with non-green creatures, but it's not like it couldn't or wouldn't be applicable.

Meh, this might be too much conjecture and not enough results or facts - I apologize if it is.

[Shawon]

Sorry, but just curious, what is the origin of the name of this deck?

[Curby]

Finn can correct me if I'm wrong, but probably:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...es&btnG=Search

Cataclysm = Death
Mana Tithe = Taxes
Isamaru = Puppy