[Card Choice] Oblivion Ring vs. Abolish in this list

[urdjur]

I've been using my Enlightened Cataclysm deck for quite some time now, which is sort of like an Angel Stompy/D&T hybrid which I don't care to explain in full right now. I'm liking what Lorwyn brought to the deck, but I'm having trouble deciding if I should stick more Oblivion Ring in the SB or go with Abolish instead. For disenchant-type effects, it comes down to these two since I want to be able to play around Chalice@1-2. Here's the list:

22 Plains

4 Isamaru
4 KotHN
4 SotPC
4 Razor Golem
4 Serra Avenger

4 Mana Tithe
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Cataclysm
4 StP
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Oblivion Ring

SIDEBOARD
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Glowrider
4 Suppression Field
3 Oblivion Ring OR Abolish

Simple enough, eh? Naturally, the fetchability and versatility of Oblivion Ring >> the speed of Abolish in the main deck. Also, Cataclysm and Abolish consume the same resource and are hard to run together. OTOH, it's hard to use Ring after Cataclysm in a pinch, due to the high CC.

Basically, I've come to the conclusion that whenever I want to side out Cataclysm and bring in more artifact/enchantment spot removal, Abolish is better (example: Faerie Stompy). Whenever I want to do this and KEEP cataclysm in, Oblivion Ring is better. ORing also has the creature removal going for it, and the RFG shenanigans that go so well with StP, SotPC+Cataclysm etc.

The problem is, the main MU where I want to keep Cataclysm and bring in more spot removal is Landstill, and Oblivion Ring doesn't work on manlands anyway. The instant speed of Abolish also seems relevant in a few "aggro-combo" MUs where I'd like to keep Cataclysm.

There's been a lot of hype around ORing and I do get lots of use out of my single MD copy both as a top deck and fetch target. But is something that deals with 3 permanent types, including creatures, really a SB card? By inspection, more ORing seems stronger than Abolish, but I'm beginning to second guess that assessment. Any thoughts?

[raharu]

Use Vindicate. It's the exact same speed as Oblivion Ring without the drawback.

EDIT: wouldn't this go better in the N+D forum?

[Peter_Rotten]

Is it possible to skirt this issue by playing more ORings main? Maybe remove a tutor and a single Cataclsym? Have the Mana Tithes been pulling their weight? With their possible removal, you could run 2 more ORings main, more tutorable equipment, and/or a Parallax Wave (techy!).

[Peter_Rotten]

EDIT: wouldn't this go better in the N+D forum?

No. I'll leave it here because he is not interested in discussing his deck; he only has one specific question for a SB card.

[quicksilver]

Run Oblivion Ring

I have no idea what KotHN and SotPC are, but since they are in your creatures section I assume they are random beaters irrelevent to the question.

Oblivion ring is better because it hits more things. The only time it is really worse is if you play cataclysm with multiples out, but since you said they normally come in when cataclysm comes out, then you should be ok.


edit: oh and vindicate? I doubt he would want to splash black just for that.

[raharu]

@ P_R: coolio, just wondering. The Oblivion Rings would go nicely MD. I must ask though, what matches do you need Abolish for? When do you need turn one artifact/ enchantment removal?

[Zach Tartell]

Run Oblivion Ring

I have no idea what KotHN and SotPC are, but since they are in your creatures section I assume they are random beaters irrelevent to the question.

Knight of the Holy Nimbus and Samurai of the Pale Curtain

[quicksilver]

Knight of the Holy Nimbus and Samurai of the Pale Curtain

I don't know which scares me more, that someone would abreviate these relativly obscure cards, or that you actually recognized both of them.

[raharu]

They are spoken upon relatively often in the D+T thread, and they aren't just random beaters (though they be close).

[Zach Tartell]

I don't know which scares me more, that someone would abreviate these relativly obscure cards, or that you actually recognized both of them.

.... little bit from column A...


They're both pretty standard fare for crappy, standard-inspired White Weenie decks that I've been playing against on MWS recently.

[urdjur]

Raharu: It's a mono-white list :/ I took Enlightened Cataclysm as whole through the N+D gauntlet about 7 months ago - I now want a focused discussion on this specific card selection issue.

Peter: Mana Tithe is excellent for many reasons game 1, but I usually side them out for something better in games 2-3 unless I play against combo. I've used them against everything from LEDs to goyfs - most people don't think tapping out is a problem when they only see basic plains. They also keep working mid-game thanks to Cataclysm reset.

Parallax Wave sure is techy and I used it in previous incarnations in the deck to get more out of my Cataclysm or hide against sweepers. Turns out pre-emptive cataclysm works just as well against 4cc sweepers, and bothering to delay clysm to fetch and play wave is just win more/suboptimal.

2 Oblivion Ring MD would probably not go amiss, but I wouldn't drop any of the key deck components which are:
*Cataclysm
*Razor Golem
*Enlightened Tutor (most of the time, these are Golem 5-8)
*At least 8 2-drops
*22 basic plains
= Highest possible chance (within deck-building reason) of pulling off: t2 solid threat, t3 golem, t4 clysm.

I might drop 1 Isamaru or 1 Mana Tithe for it though. If I do so, do you think I should go with 3 Abolish in the SB?

EDIT: Sorry about abbreviating the beaters. I can't think of any 2-drops that are more synergistic in this deck. KotHN pretty much never dies to damage with Cataclysm and Suppression Field coming in against 85% of all aggressive decks. SotPC is a 3/3 in combat and interferes with many, many decks across the field.

Raharu brings up a valid point with Abolish: When is it really needed? This reminds me - I forgot to mention another problem with ORings in the board: The taxing effects can increase the cc a lot, so that sacking a plain and paying 2 >> paying 5 to remove something. So it's not only that I need it at instant speed, it's that it's nice to have at all in games where taxing is good (again, Landstill comes to mind).