Greater Gargadon does not have great synergy with winning games, as opponents often run 'counterspells' in this format, and saccing your board to this guy with never-draw-a-land-again crusher does not seem like tech. Win more card ~sometimes~ wins more, more frequently, he just bites a force of will, as it's not too hard to see him coming.
Originally Posted by cdr
Hi all, first post here,
you all made me very excited to play goyf sligh,
I played it in our friday night magic, 16 player tournament and i became second. (also couse i gave someone a free point)
played against:
fish (1-1 gave him a draw with 5mins left)
black thres (2-0)
solidarity (2-0, outraced him)
rafinity (2-0)
I ran a very suboptimal list though since i didnt have all the cards. One of those cards i had to include was Burning-tree shaman.
I must say, i was very pleased about this card, im thinking of running 2 crusher/3 shaman.
Why is shaman so good:
Top, 1 damage
Equip jitte/cranial, 1 damage
Use counter from jitte, 1 damage
Fetch/waste, 1 damage
nantuko shade ability, 1 damage
Ravager sac, 1 damage
And its a 3/4 for 3cc
I know the damage isnt alot, but it adds up.
and in a few games i played the damage did make a difference. I also dont play lavamancers, are they really that good in this deck? since it cant beat hard on its own and you need mana and cards in graveyard to activate it.
Lavamancer is one of those cards that's an auto-4-of in sligh decks for me. Regardless of the other cards in a list, Lavamancer has always pulled its weight. Don't look at the disynergy between Lavamancer and BTS/Goyf. All three are relevant threats, and will do serious damage if any of them go unchecked. Glad to see someone has seen some success with BTS though, congrats.
-Steve
How come it needs to be a holiday to bang noobslayer's sister?
Agreed. Grim Lavamancer is sick, he wins games by himself. Being able to turn all of your dead creatures and spent burn spells in to 2 damge is sick...
Team Fat Man & Little Boy
yeah, thats true
but its also a 1/1 which has a activated ability (peedle) and needs to tap in order to work.
I never played with it before, but a friend of mine ran a RDW for a long time.. and he wasnt that excited about it..
What is your opinion about rift bolt vs lava spike?
rift bolt can target creatures and it dodges countertop, but it might take a turn before its active.
but lavaspike could be a better topdeck since it instantly kills.
I run them both, Rift Bolt is clearly a better spell though...
What does the have to do with anything, it's an activated abality, so what? Lavamancer is needed in this deck, he is a steady source of damage that either has to be dealt with or it can go the distance...just give it a try, you'll like it...
Team Fat Man & Little Boy
You know where Gargadon would be absurd? In the near mirrors if they exist in your metagame. If they're there, sideboard 3 and see how much fun life is for your opponent.
It turns into a Berserk Murlodont, coming for your nuts. Because really, that's what's required - a creature that will come for your nuts.
Doesn't Lavamancer conflict with Goyf?
I like the fire mage: anyone that runs a aggro deck like RDW or what have you should run him for sure. He's a great way to get rid of annoying threats [Bob, Lackey, etc].
It more often than not it allows you to control Goyf, which is huge.
Lands and Instants usually are abundant in the GY you can almost always pull doubles if you chose to. The deck has a lot of burn and with fetches, you usually are able to activate Lavamancer w/o harming your Goyfs power.
But it also means you can reduce opponents Goyfs; if Goyfs are 4/5s cause of you having a Sorcery in the yard, and you're opponent swings in with two you can use Lavamancer to remove the Sorcery, bringing them down to 3/4s where a Fanatic or something could trade with one (with the 2 damage from Lavamancer, 1 from Fanatic block and 1 from the Fanatic ping)... In this sense Lavamancer is really powerful in matches where your opponent has Goyfs.
Wow, I finally read the whole post history, it is long.
Anyway Just my 2 cents on the deck.
These seem to be the 'issues' with this deck.
Mostly right number\combinations of creatures vs burn vs land.
1) shoud Quirion Dryad be in the deck?
I hope so bc I just got 3 copies. As a green creature also helps vs Sliver Knight
2) PoP vs splashing black for better sideboard combo matchup (just a stuip questoin but is MU short for matchup)?
PoP appears from reports to be a very valuable burn spell (4-8 for 1R is usually good), sometimes. However splashing black gives stronger options in the sideboard.
3) Is Contryside Crusher something to go in the deck, possible a 2, 3, or 4 of. Definately ensures nonland drawas later in the game. However can 1RR be supported
4) How do improve vs Counterbalance/Top in game one without Grip.
5) how to improve versus Combo in general?
6) How to deal better with Sliver Knight / Jitte in game one
As I see it the core of the deck is
6-8 Fetch Lands
4 Taiga
6-8 M
0-4 Forests/Bandlands/other lands
4 Fanatic
4 Tarmogoyf
3-4 Grim Lavamancer
4-8 more creatures
4 L Bolt
4 Chain L
3-4 F Blast
14+ other spells (burn)
From here is the basis, at least to me; the deck seems to vary greatly depending on the different options from there.
Just my opinion, it is that C. Crusher should find its home in some version of this deck. At least in the sideboard, It would seem to very good card versus many decks. It gets around most counterblance locks and is big to start with.
I will try testing this out for when I start playing again
Last edited by jwk; 02-23-2008 at 11:23 PM. Reason: I have horrible grammer
-JWK
I gotta be honest. In my testing I have found Crusher to be vastly underwhelming in this deck. I mean, there are very certain games or situations where Crusher, coming down later in the game with the ability to set him up with Magma Jet or just getting rather lucky, that he became so huge that he was unstoppable. Problem was, in those situations, I was already in a winning situation and it wouldn't have mattered if he was more burn, a goyf, a keldon marauder, or even a kird ape. I don't deny he is a powerful card, but I don't really think that he's really at home in this deck in comparison to a deck that can truly abuse him such as an Aggro Loam varient. For reference, the list I have been playing:
7 Fetches
4 Taiga
1 Forest
6 Mountain
3 Meta (Currently, as maligned as they are, Kird Ape)
3 Lavamancer
4 Fanatic
4 Goyf
4 Keldon marauder
4 Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Seal of Fire
3 Price of Progress
3 Incinerate
4 Magma Jet
3 Fireblast
Meta slot fluctuates. At times it's a Kird Ape simply for a cheap efficient beater, and others it's a 19th land and some Aritfact removal or some of the less fun burn (Rift Bolt/Lava Spike,) but it's something that can be almost anything. This is just the build I feel most comfortable playing as far as the numbers go, and Crusher felt very weak without more lands and a way of getting fetches back to reuse and abuse his ability.
Team Albany: What's Legacy?
You cannot know the sweetness of Victory, without first dwelling in the agony of Defeat.
After several tests and dismissing the black splash (confidant MD, thoughtseize SB) because of its frailty, this is the list I am playing; I like it for its regularity (I usually kill turn 4 in goldfish) :
20 lands :
4 wooded foothills
4 bloodstained mire
4 taiga
1 forest
7 mountain
20 creatures
4 kird ape
4 fanatic
4 lavamancer
4 tarmogoyf
4 keldon marauders
20 burn
4 fireblast
4 bolt
4 chain ligthning
4 rift bolt
4 magma jet
I would like your opinion mainly on the side.
I need mostly to deal with problematic enchantments / artifacts such as Jitte, Counterbalance, Chalice, Trinisphere, Cop:Red, worship so 4 Krosan Grip are needed.
I really like Price of progress against all these 3+ color decks so I play 4.
If I expect some dredge decks I'll play 3-4 tormod's crypt.
I have 3-7 slots open now.
My meta has almost no combo so I accept the match loss on most games, anyways we have few tools to fight efficiently.
I have thought about :
- pyroblast : can counter counterbalance if R was open, which is possible after turn 2 with the amount of instants played.
- shattering spree : since most my trouble comes from artifacts
- tin-street hooligan : same but is countered by chalice@2
- engineered explosives : can deal with chalice, jitte, CB and occasionnaly Etw goblin tokens. Is it too slow/situational ?
- choke (untested) but it seems to slow to really matter against thresh/landstill
- seal of primordium/naturalize : additional krosan grip but dies to CB/chalice
So for the moment my side is
4 krosan grip
4 Price of progress
3 tormod
2 shattering spree
2 pyroblast
What do you think ? What are your worst matchups with this deck (except the obvious combo) ? How do you fight them ?
Wow, that is really close to what I have been running. I run 3 main deck Price of progress, 3 Fireblast and Only 3 Magma Jets, I don't run Kird Ape. Instead I run either Lava Spike or Shard Volley. My board looks like this:
4 Krosan Grip
3 Shattering Spree
3 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Price of Progress
4 Blood Moon
The Spree's are a good answer to Chalice and will help against Affinity and any Stompy Deck. Krosan Grip is the best answer to Counterbalance and Vortex keeps life gain in check. Vortex, if resolved, can put your opponent on a nice clock, they will have to deal with it or lose. Blood Moon is, well it's Blood Moon, a lot of decks have trouble dealing with it and it's harder to float mana against to destroy it. Hope this helps...
Team Fat Man & Little Boy
I completely forgot about sulfuric vortex, it is a great answer to jitte and also to control decks.
I'll try with this side and keep you informed of the results
4 Pop
4 Grip
3 spree
4 vortex
(I completely give up the combo MU, even Ichorid is not very present in my meta).
Yeah combo is a bitch, Pyrostatic Pillar helps but you really need things to go your way to win this match. Pyroclasm can help against ETW based combo's, other than that you just have to prey they get a slow draw...right...
Team Fat Man & Little Boy
Hmmmmmm....
I just can't stop thinking of crusher in this deck. So after the Grand Prix in vienna and watching my goyf sligh loosing in a legacy side-event because it was forced to mulligan because of a one-land hand or just because it was mana flooded I thought about crusher in the deck to help the mana fixing.
Anyway, here's the list:
Lands(22):
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
3 Badlands
1 Bayou
3 Mountains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Barbarian Ring
Creatures(23):
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Countryside Crusher
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Grim Lavamancer
Spells(15):
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Dart (GREAT synergie with dryad and crusher)
3 Fireblast
With 4 crushers and 4 confidants the main idea is to have a crusher or a confidant in the game because he was forced to deal with the dryads, tarmogoyfs, etc...
Any thoughts???
.
Last edited by Volt; 10-12-2008 at 04:29 AM.
Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.
The burn count is dangerously low though. That might pose a problem.
The Source: Your Source for "The Source: Your Source for..." cliche.
Hello to all. This is one of my first post here on mtg in a few years. I have been playing some form of r/g beats for around 10 years. A few of the styles I have played are 3-duece, garv, zilla stompy, sligh, and straight r/g beats. I came back to r/g beats when they printed our favorite green man. I was wondering, since sacerause has had quite a bit of success and I did see him running reckless charge, if anyone had considered running berserks. A lot of people have been worried if keldon marauders will do his "job" is legacy as he does in t2. Berserk may help this hickup. The reason why I have chosen berserk over reckless charge or rancor is its ability to race combo. A double berserk or even a single berserk on a KM can cause significantly more damage than either of the mentioned spells. Meaning instead of wasting the burn spell to kill off the blocker of KM, you can use it to go to the dome and get another 2 or 3 points of damage off the berserk. In addition, with berserk KM will die a turn sooner for less of a drawn out shock. With berserk tarmogoyf can hit without being chump blocked also, which I have found to be the case with goblins. They can simply pump out more creatures than you can so goyf almost never gets to pound to the face. Also, on the rare occasion berserk can exponentiate the power of the creatures when played in multiples. Not something to rely on but nonetheless is a possibility. Obviously, you have to run the version in which you use 20+creatures. But, 18 burn spells seem to be plenty when you can give a creature a huge boon with berserk.
My list:
4 x kird ape
4 x tarmogoyf
4 x dryad
4 x grim lavamancer
4 x keldon maruader
4 x lightning bolt
4 x chain lighting
4 x berserk
3 x fireblast
3 x price of progress
4 x magma jet (I run this only to increase the chances of getting single or double berserk
4 x tiaga
4 x wooded foothills
2 x bloodstain mire
1 x forest
7 x mountains
Note: I have not included mogg fanatic since he doesn't get much help from berserk
I won a local tournament today with this goyf-sligh list :
20 creatures :
lavamancer
kird ape
mogg fanatic
keldon marauders
tarmogoyf
20 burn
magma jet
light bolt
chain light
rift bolt
fireblast
20 lands
8 red fetch
1 forest
4 taiga
7 mountains
side :
4 krosan grip
3 shattering spree
4 price of progress
4 sulfuric vortex
R1 : Sam, he's a good friend of mine. I made his deck since he hasn't played legacy in a while, it's a Ubgw landstill very similar to Tacosnape's version.
We had tested the matchup a little before, and it is heavily in favor of Rg. I win 2-0 this time, some creatures do damage before he can deal with them and I finish with burn.
I side in vortex and PoP for mogg fanatic and rift bolt. He sides blue elemental blast (and I think could I have also side in meddling mage, or circle of protection red if I had any for his side).
I'd say with a more experienced pilot for landstill the matchup is still about 75% in favor for Rg
R2 : I'm paired down with a somewhat random deck, mono white with some pro red dudes. However his deck has a high curve and I am able to kill him before problems (Conversion, equipements such as swords ...).
I sided in 4 krosan grip for mogg fanatic since he could kill none of his creatures.
R3 : Quentin, another very good friend. I lent him a belcher (RG, 1 land, 4 pyroblast and 4 street wraith maindeck)
We did some tests together, and I got lucky with a failed belcher activation and a small mistake for his blockers and I won 2-0. However during a tournament he is much more serious ...
Game 1 he keeps a slow hand. He is only able to get out 8 goblin tokens on turn 3 and I already have 2 blockers. Since my deck usually kills on turn 4 his in bad shape.
He attacks on turn 4, I take 6, and I am able to burn him out on my turn 4.
I side in 3 shattering spree (I don't really have a side against combo but these could help against a belcher or if he keeps a chrome mox to activate on next turn) for a mountain and 2 magma jet (too slow).
game 2 he has the nuts : 14 goblins on turn 1
game 3 is a great game. I make mogg fanatic turn 1, to his 12 goblins next turn. I get a lavamancer and a second fanatic. He attack with 12 goblins, I block 3, stack damage, and kill 2 more with the fanatics. I take 9 and he has 7 goblins left.
turn 3 I fetch again, going to 9, and make a tarmogoyf and a lavamancer. When he attacks next turn, I take 6, going to 3, and only block with the tarmogoyf. He summons 4 more goblins ... The next turn, I magma jet on my upkeep on a token, put a tarmogoyf on the bottom and draw a fireblast. I play a kird ape. On his next attack, I am able to kill all goblins except 2 with a bolt, a lavamancer activation, a fireblast, and my blockers. I go to 1, but he is unable to kill me before I can finish his tokens with lavamancer and attack with a 5/6 goyf. phew !
R4 : Claire, she's also 3-0 with a classic burn deck with 2 barb rings, 4 flamebreak main. We ID and play about 8 matches for fun in 40 minutes. I won 5-3 mostly because she had to mulligan more often and kept a 1-land hand and got screwed.
So the top 4 is :
me 3-0-1
claire (burn) 3-0-1
Quentin (belcher) 3-1
another belcher 3-1 (lost to quentin round 1)
I really like this list, it is very consistent. I mulligan maybe 20% of time only and the goldfish turn is always turn 4, even with a small resistance of opponent (such as belcher playing a tinder wall).
However it is clearly fit for my metagame which has few combo decks.
I'd like to know your results and tactics against goblins since I had no chance to practice against them.
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