i havent encountered burn decks on any mayor occasion, and neither on a large scale, yeah its not a good matchup but you can race them often. i dont see the need to change the deck thats working so nicely for a deck that barely represents itself in major numbers in tournaments.
Id like to milk that oreo... split it in half...and lick all that sweet sweet candy off. mmmmm... oreos....
I haven't tested, but I'd see any decks with many amounts of burn (Sligh and even Boros) to be able to crush this deck. Maybe this deserves a decent amount of sideboard cards, depending on the meta. And I don't really think this deck can often outrace a burn deck.
I played against Stax recently and I had to include Angel of Despair to be able to get rid of extremely annoying permanents (it may cost 7 life, but it's better than to cost you the game). In this kind of MU, you have enough time to cast an Intuition and search for it and, if there are no discard outlets on the board at that time, Gigapede would come handy -- in fact, it does for any 1-of crits that are essential to your play when getting them off an Intuition --, be it because of a Needle or for the simple fact of not having PImp or Prowler alive.
Rebuild seemed essential on the SB. Chalice at 1 + Chalice at 2 completely crush your game. For the same reason, Necromancy deserves to be looked at as a SB card. It works well with CIP stuff that can be reanimated again later for a doubled effect, as with Angel of Despair. It also dodges CB.
Finally, Tombstalker as an alternate win condition is totally awsome.
Keep moon-walking.
burn decks that rely on their creatures like boros will often be overwhelmed by this deck. as those dont kill as fast. and its very hard for them to waste 2-4 burn spells to kill one of your critters that just come back. haven't tested much, i have played against a couple, but nothing more than just fun games. ill make sure to do some thorough testing wih boros decks.
Kiddie burn on the other hand is a bad matchup, yet people dont play it as often and therefore its not really considered in the sideboard in my case. if you do have alot of them in your meta add chill, or blue elemental blasts to your board and done deal.
and if you fear chalice, then run rebuild, yet ive to encounter a deck that has locked me out that easy. and stax decks are about even. it all depends on who goes first and what gets played.
dont play the angel. hes not that good except for those random matchups that you most likely will win regardless of him showing up.
also gigapede is BAD! please... read the opening post.
Id like to milk that oreo... split it in half...and lick all that sweet sweet candy off. mmmmm... oreos....
What about Ghosts of the Innocent against burn...?
I did read, but I felt it was necessary against Stax.Originally Posted by rodgon666
@ Ghosts of the Innocent: Imagine this scenario, which is the common burn with reanimation scenario: You have taken damage from fetch lands (0-2 dmg) and may now be using a Reanimate to bring Ghost back (0 or 7 dmg). If you are on the play, you've taken one turn of damage (3 dmg); if you are on the draw, you've taken 2 turns of damage (7-9 dmg). Add all this up: on the play, 3-12 dmg; on the draw, 7-18 dmg.
So, if you bring Ghost with Reanimate and you are on the draw, you are already dead anyway. Still, there are 8 revive spells that will get it on turn 2. With any of them, it might be a nice reanimation spell. The big problem is you won't be able to fetch it, so you'll have to play it as a 4-of, which sucks. To win the race, you'll need to revive another creature, as they will draw around 2 points of damage per turn, but they are way ahead. Again, you can't use Reanimate.
Maybe it's not worth the effort to try and push too hard to win against a single deck, unless it's the deck to beat in one meta.
Keep moon-walking.
exactly. unless your meta is full of burn ( in which case i would just switch out some critters like the bringer and some others for a full set of phanthom nishobas. and then i bet you you wont loose anymore. or at least a lot less.
he is really the only answer to burn, and you already have him to be fetched.
also reanimate is only 1/3 of your reanimation suite, so i wouldnt worry too much about the life loss.
Id like to milk that oreo... split it in half...and lick all that sweet sweet candy off. mmmmm... oreos....
For the burn matchup: Maybe Arbiter of Knollridge can do the job. It is 1 turn faster, than Nishoba, concerning the life gain. Though I dont know if it is really good enough.
no trample means that he will be chum blocked all day. by little things like mogg fanatic, and in boros decks by isamaru and some knights... and against most decks youll be the one with the higher life total, and you dont want to be ever in a position where you have to ask yourself if you want to bring the creature out or not... it should almost always be a hell yeah.
...how is he a turn faster than nishoba?
Id like to milk that oreo... split it in half...and lick all that sweet sweet candy off. mmmmm... oreos....
I had some major success with a re-animator build last year (came in 4th at KDLD III). Check out this thread for reference:
The Polar Express
No matter how you slice it, a well timed Extirpate will hurt. So will a Tormod's Crypt. You must have the necessary tools in order to protect yourself from opposing hate games 2 and 3. Take some of those ideals and apply them to your strategy. The idea is to hit them for as much as possible, as soon as possible. So a 24/24 trampler turn one is about as good as you're going to get.
Edit: Make that a 26/26 hasty trampler turn one.
I'll be condisering for a full set of nishobas. Seriosly, they are one the best creatures ever printed. To argument that statement, I would like to sum up some vital importances:
1. Lifelink. This is probably your only way to race a slowly set up tendrils combo deck, a fast aggro deck or burn.
2. Trample. Holy moly, this is just awesome! Even though it becomes 6/6 after combat, It's still nice to kill goyfyboy and inflict even more damage.
3. Pseudo indestuctible. This is the best ability, IMO. The fact that it doesn't die to cookie enourmous creatures, some extremely overpowered burn spell, or some other effect that would have killed any other creature is a huge plus.
The only thing most enourmous dudes miss are pro white or am I missing something?
"You're English is terrible and inconsistent."
-DownSyndromeKarl
True, additional 3 phantom nishoba's in the board will be good for burn or superfast aggro.
What are the latest lists that we have for this deck?
Last edited by enemyofarsenic; 02-24-2008 at 04:33 AM.
just thinking, has tolarian winds been tried in this deck? I think it would be really good!
"You're English is terrible and inconsistent."
-DownSyndromeKarl
non selectively discarding your hand is bad, ive tested with it. it not that good.
Id like to milk that oreo... split it in half...and lick all that sweet sweet candy off. mmmmm... oreos....
I've been testing this deck on MWS and I think that chain of vapors is better than repeal. simply because if I have a recursion spell in my hand (which is semi-common) I can use chain vapor on my hellkite, or my nishoba. Then discard those cards and exhume them back into play, which clears some creatures and refreshes nishoba counters. also you can target your own imp and sac land to get rid of a leyline turn 2, and your opponent most likely cant play it before you get a fatty out.
When this deck was posted in the other forum, I tossed in the idea of Blazing Archon MD as an auto win preboard vs Ichorid. It was aptly noted that that is true, but it is supbar in other matchups. I tend to agree.
However, today I noticed that Blazing Archon is an auto win vs Dragon Stompy pre and postboard. This leads me back to the potential single copy of Archon as it randomally becomes very relevant against certain decks.
Chain of vapor is an awfully limited card. It will only work when you target your own permanent or when you have no revived crits on the table. Even if the idea is to bounce a crypt, it would limit itself solely to these situations.
If you want to recur things, then just use another bounce spell. There are so many to choose from that won't ruin your day.
Keep moon-walking.
chain vapors as a side board option is not that bad if you have a lot of black in your metagame... but i would only put it there IF! and only if your cluttered with decks with leyline of the void. the card itself as described before is good but very situational. its affected by counterbalance on a bigger scale than repeal and it doesnt net you a card. it is true that you might be able to get some extra use from your critters, and plays like this.
i play exhume...
i crypt you...
i chain vapors my dragon to my hand after the resolution of your crypt and before the exhume resolves..
i discard it to an Pimp/oonas prowler..
let exhume resolve take 5 more to the face.
but other that those very awesome situations it will most likely end up bouncing your critter from your opponents bouncing the spell back to ya.
once you have a creature out youll never want to bounce a spell an opponent plays. well almost never...
Id like to milk that oreo... split it in half...and lick all that sweet sweet candy off. mmmmm... oreos....
With a GOD Hand:
Ex: opening hand: 4 (R 3 damage) 1 POP (for 4) 2 mountain
turn one: mountain, bolt
life total: 17
turn two: (draw fireblast) mountain, bolt, lava spike
life total: 11
turn three: (draw mountain) mountain, chain lightning, PoP, fireblast
life total: 0
nice hand, idiot.
More often, burn kills on turn 4, and turn 5s much, much more frequently than turn 3s, even on the draw.
If you can get a nishoba turn three vs burn, you should be fine. Forcing/dazing a spell like fireblast will likely buy you enough time as well, as even with the above situation, your opponent would have to topdeck a (r for 3 damage if you forced, two if you dazed) spell against you if you countered price or fireblast. As they DO run 30-33% lands, and their avg CMC is like 1.6, it is likely if the GOD hand had its fireblast countered, you'd still live until turn 4-7.
The thing is we don't use counters in this deck. Not in the "main" or "most used" version that is discussed here. Also, you can't use Reanimate against burn or you stand no chance.
Keep moon-walking.
my apologies, i was mainly just refuting the claim of the consistent turn 3-4 burn kill.
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