I realize that they're many combo decks that can win on the first and second turn, but combo decks that win by the third or fourth turn, can they be viable as well?
I have a general question regarding goldfishing and combo decks. What percentage do the tier 1 combo decks win on turn 1,2,3 etc. And combo decks that win on turn 3-4, are these bad decks or part of the norm. I'm not really sure if I should pursue building a combo deck that gets consistent 3rd turn kills and I have no idea how well this particular deck would do in the format. Any insight on combo decks and it's intricacies would be much appreciated. Thanks ahead of time.
If you are going to play a slower combo deck you need some defense to stall while you assemble the combo.
Aluren is a pretty good example of a combo deck that doesn't win until post-turn 3/4. It runs 4 FoW, 3-4 Cabal Therapy, and 4 Wall of Roots/Blossoms to help in buying time against faster decks. Cephalid Breakfast (though it can goldfish Turn 2) runs a similar stall/protection package, 4 Goyf instead of walls, essentially to help against fast aggro and then counters/discard to help vs control or faster combo.
So yea Turn 3-4 combo is viable, but it needs to pack enough control/defense to ensure it makes it to Turn 3-4 while assembling the combo.
Just to clarify, my build runs 4 Thoughtseize MD'ed and 4 Duress SB. It does pack a good amount of disruption. But should I run more disruption, or is this sufficient.
And add to that, why do people play Aluren and Breakfast if it's a slower combo deck? Why doesn't John Doe just grab the fastest combo deck out there?
Because the faster a combo deck is able to win the less backup plans it normaly has. So these decks either win fast or die to a lot of cards that negate their win plan without beeing able to constantly handle these cards without influencing their own combo-game-plan.Originally Posted by Cavius The Great
Fast combo decks are hated more easily and less consistend then the slower combo decks. So both have their pros and cons.
Does this site consider Burn to be a combo deck or a sort of "aggro/combo" deck?
Countering one lightning bolt won't stop the deck, but it will stall it somewhat.
I would consider Burn acting more like a combo deck that has a 3-5 turn clock. So it is considered a slow combo deck and as you said every counter is only going to by a turn at most. so it is slow but resilient to the most defense plans except for Jitte, Chalice, 3Sphere and such.
Burn might be a bad combo deck.It's still not bad to be in the Established Forums and get fourth turn kills at best. I guess that answers my question on the 3rd - 4th turn viability thing.
I also think that "fizzling" is a factor whether the combo deck is consistent or not. I guess I failed to mention that in the first post.
At least a Burn deck [with a sideboard] is, what, 1/5 the price of 4 Tarmogoyfs?Burn might be a bad combo deck.
It might not be the best, but it sure as hell is cheap to build and doesn't die to Yard hate.
Please don't turn this thread into a "budget/price" thing.
I like to play burn when I don't feel like thinking. Sort of an auto-pilot deck at times. I'll play it every one in awhile when no one is expecting it to steal an easy win.Please don't turn this thread into a "budget/price" thing.
Every combo deck has its weaknesses... TES' weaknesses are primarily linked to its high card-count dependance, resulting in things that disrupt mana cost (Trinisphere, Thorn of Amethyst), Chalice, and heavy discard. Now, it has some protective measures (Orim's Chant, Xantid Swarm), but Orim's Chant doesn't stay on the field and Xantid Swarm is fairly vulnerable and takes a turn to go online. Belcher has very similar weaknesses. Solidarity is extremely dependent on Cunning Wish and High Tide and runs slightly slower than the above two, but does offer in general, a measure more protection and goes off during your opponents' turn with Force backups and such. Aluren is of similar speed to Solidarity, and its combo is somewhat more consistent, and can be difficult to disrupt once it gets going, save stifling effects.
I agree with you totally that every combo deck has it's weaknesses and strengths. That's something I originally overlooked. Every matchup is different for 'said' decks and playing a certain combo deck is probably primarily based on your metagame.
Wouldn't this mean that the combo deck able to win the fastest while also protect itself the most is the "best"?
Do any combo decks come close to this criteria?
Not really. See your meta. In an environment with a few counters, but a lack of cards like Chalice and Trinisphere, I like TES for its consistency and protection. If there are cards like Chalice, I'd rather have Solidarity for its ability to do end-of-turn sweeping followed by crunching them during their opponents' next turn after all the disruption has been negated... Then, there's Ichorid...
Ichorid dies to GY hate though. Not exactly "perfect" in my book.
It also gets disrupted by a Mogg Fanatic these days. I run into SO MUCH ICHORID NOW! Gah! At least that's what Dragon Stompy's for... but just to laugh my ass off, I'll actually try my hand at *playing* that stupid Bureaucratic Nightmare I now have...Ichorid dies to GY hate though. Not exactly "perfect" in my book.
What's Bureaucratic Nightmare? Can I get a list?
EDIT: I saw the list through a PM. Thanx. Well, you know, you're list looks pretty damn good for a casual deck. You definitely should play it in a tournament and give us a tourney report. =)
Last edited by Cavius The Great; 02-20-2008 at 06:18 PM.
I just need to find 2 Anvil of Bogardin. Meh, shouldn't be too hard. When's the last time you saw someone not build a deck out of love for a card or theme... or simple effectiveness, but out of simply desiring to cause the world pain and suffering? That... is the Bureaucratic Nightmare.
Anyway, I still like TES for a blind metagame for overall effectiveness. It's *can* be very fast... it *can* protect itself fairly well, even post-board... it can win a fair amount turn 1, but does not rely on it. It's very weak in a monoblack/stompy dominated scene, but does just fine against Threshold and Goblins. Thank you, wastedlife and co., for making the most thought-provoking deck I've played.
I just checked SCG.com and Anvil of Bogardan is 4 dollars and out of stock. This is crazy. What deck plays them besides yours? I never realized they were so popular.
Exactly. I think I can grab one from one of the local stores I frequent. But maybe someone collects them...
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