Andy in out current meta I highly recommend this sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Powder Keg
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyroclasm
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Blood Moon
As you know I've been playing the deck for quite a while and this board is highly tested.
Also switch out you SOFI for SOLS pro swords, life gain, and not having awful synergy RPD all make it simply better.
Team Hammafist
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
Tom, Have you tried pyrokinisis? I have not tested it extensivly but it looks like it would have good synergy with helbent. also do you dissagree with a 4th trinsphere in side, or in main?
Thanks, Andy
I've tested it, but it has the 2 major flaws of being awful when your in topdeck mode (which happens often due to hellbent being so crucial) and the fact that There is so much thresh in our meta and Trinisphere is just needed which obv has bad synergy with Kenesis.
As for Sphere number 4 I say don't bother three is plenty since having multiples is just pointless and you really would never end up siding in the 4th.
Team Hammafist
hey, I've been wondering about a couple Fledgling Dragons...any good? It goes decent with Hellbent, they get decent sized, have auto-evasion as opposed to Pit Dragon, still have firebreathing. I know they are additional 4cc slots, but does it matter that much? I was thinking of them in place of Sulfur Elementals. Thoughts? After all, we do call it Dragon Stompy...
This deck getting Threshold requires an act of god.*
If you think Fledgling is worth it unthreshed, go for it. I don't.
*Or a Wrath of God. Which could be considered as the former.
Last edited by Tacosnape; 02-27-2008 at 09:08 PM.
If only there were a similar creature of similar casting cost with more explosive abilities that was determined not by the number of cards in the yard, but by the number of cards in our hand or something...
/jerk
In all seriousness, unless they start printing Spirit Guides with dredge (Hmmm), Threshold creatures are right out.
And yeah, I'm not excited about more 4cc spots, espicially of thevariety. I mean, if they print another critter of Pit Dragons power level, then we'll have to consider it, but right now there are so many quality 3cc options that there is no reason to bump the curve up.
I've never seen him so upset....or ever before.
They are not really good unless you plan to be very creative to figure out how to pull it off to make the Threshold effects worth the while.
Otherwise it is best not to go with that sort of plan.
So does Slogger, Akroma, Hellbent Raiders and Dragon, anything wielding Jitte/Sword, and Tormod's Crypt. So does Taurean Mauler on occasion. Most of the top decks in Legacy don't run this guy, so this isn't a huge plus.
In my play experience, Sulfur Elemental usually makes WW even more dangerous. The only things he kills out of combat are Decree of Justice tokens, Mangara, and the odd Savannah Lions. Granted, he's pretty sick in multiples vs. WW, but it's a rare occasion to draw two of them, especially if you're only running two like most lists that run him. It's not like WW is some huge deck either. What he does most of the time is make Silver Knight a 3/1 pro-red, first striker, which is even more of a pain to deal with, and make the rest of their creatures swing for more damage. We already damage ourselves plenty without making our opponent's creatures more lethal.
That is about the extent of Sulfur Elemental's advantages. Occasionally, I'll kill a Bob, or a non-Threshed Mongoose, but otherwise I haven't done much worth noting with Elemental. For all the talk of him being a pseudo-removal spell, I've rarely seen it work to any great effect, and it's not like DS has tons of creatures that it can't/needs to deal with. Usually, he trades with a creature of about equal value. I will concede that Elemental will win an odd game where your opponent relies on you not being able to alpha strike him and that is his greatest strength.
I disagree. Sulfur Elemental turn one is far from an ideal play. I'd rather play anything in the deck turn one than Elemental, except for Akroma (morphed), SSG, a lone Jitte, or nothing. Taurean Mauler, on the other hand, is a good turn one or two play. People are stupid afraid of Mauler (perhaps unjustly so, but afraid nonetheless). They almost always spend a counter or removal spell on him that they should be saving for a Moon or a superior creature. People rarely waste removal on a Sulfur Elemental. Mauler is poor in the late game, but I don't see why Sulfur is so awesome outside of the odd uninformed attack by the opponent.
Split Second on Elemental is nice vs MBC and similar decks, but most decks aren't threatened enough by him to counter him anyway.
Pro's of Mauler:
Good early play
People overrate his value and go out of their way to kill him
Can potentially be huge
Randomly good vs Countersliver and Storm decks when they fail to go off.
Con's of Mauler:
Sub-par late-game topdeck.
Poor synergy with Chalice and Trinisphere.
Pro's of Sulfur Elemental
Can't be countered.
Can pull combat tricks.
Good vs slow control (kills Decree of Justice tokens, can't be countered).
Can be good vs White Weenie.
Con's of Sulfur Elemental
Can be bad vs White Weenie (increased damage).
Sub-par early play.
Isn't much of a threat by himself.
Actually, the most common creature killed by Sulfur Elemental is Harmonic Sliver.*
This can actually be pretty significant. Against Slivers, an active Harmonic Sliver can seriously hurt you, as it'll keep you off Chalice, Jitte, and Chrome Mox. Survival decks often pack a Harmonic and a Darkheart, and they also often pack Cabal Therapy. A Sulfur Elemental in play means that Darkheart can't act as Harmonic #2 and that Harmonic #1 can't stick around to be a Cabal Therapy. Or a chump blocker, which can be just enough to win you a game on occasion.
On rare occasions it'll go LOL at a Decree of Justice, but smart players hardcast Decree against DS, and if they get time and mana to get a Decree off, you probably lost.
*This excludes flashing him in front of a Creature during the attack step.
Last edited by Tacosnape; 02-28-2008 at 03:28 AM.
I didn't know Sulfur Elemental had flying. I'd love to chump Hoofprint tokens with him too.
Also, Fledgling Dragon is kinda bad here...I think that a 2/2 flier for 4 is not that great. Sure a 5/5 Flying Firebreather is kinda hot, but getting Threshold in this deck is not too easy. City of Traitors and Seething Song are going to be the only consistent things to hit the yard, along with countered goods. So if all is going well, we might have 3-4 cards in our graveyard. He's really good if he is resolved and we are losing though (if we have thresh that is...). Otherwise, a morphed dude is going to be easier to cast and as tough, though lacking evasion.
Yeah, er, that wasn't me. That was my retarded twin who I ordinarily keep locked in the closet breaking free just long enough to make Dragon Stompy posts.:P
The thing about the Harmonic Sliver is valid, though.
Good point about Harmonic, but I've found (or thought) the creature it kills most is Nomads en-Kor. Breakfast has a terrible time going off with one down (and never forget the split second uncounterable-ness) and two down can shut them off from Shaman en-Kor.
I've never seen him so upset....or ever before.
There are plenty of UWG Thresh builds that I've seen run him main, but also in the SB (helpful in the mirror). I've also seen many UWB Fish decks run him. While UWB Fish isn't a major force anymore, UWG Thresh is. True, we already have a decent matchup versus Thresh, but I don't mind being able to have a better one.
There are plenty of times that -1 against a White creature will matter; WW deck or other. Tacosnape and Phantom helped explain this.In my play experience, Sulfur Elemental usually makes WW even more dangerous. The only things he kills out of combat are Decree of Justice tokens, Mangara, and the odd Savannah Lions. Granted, he's pretty sick in multiples vs. WW, but it's a rare occasion to draw two of them, especially if you're only running two like most lists that run him. It's not like WW is some huge deck either. What he does most of the time is make Silver Knight a 3/1 pro-red, first striker, which is even more of a pain to deal with, and make the rest of their creatures swing for more damage. We already damage ourselves plenty without making our opponent's creatures more lethal.
Playing combat tricks, messing with opponent's endgame math, etc. are all awesome. Glad we agree.That is about the extent of Sulfur Elemental's advantages. Occasionally, I'll kill a Bob, or a non-Threshed Mongoose, but otherwise I haven't done much worth noting with Elemental. For all the talk of him being a pseudo-removal spell, I've rarely seen it work to any great effect, and it's not like DS has tons of creatures that it can't/needs to deal with. Usually, he trades with a creature of about equal value. I will concede that Elemental will win an odd game where your opponent relies on you not being able to alpha strike him and that is his greatest strength.
I'm not saying that I'd cast Mauler over a Morphed Raiders if I was playing on turn 1. I'm saying that whether I draw Sulfur in my opening hand, or draw him on turn 5, he's equally effective at what he's supposed to do. Yes, we understand that Mauler is good on turn 1/2. But beyond that?I disagree. Sulfur Elemental turn one is far from an ideal play. I'd rather play anything in the deck turn one than Elemental, except for Akroma (morphed), SSG, a lone Jitte, or nothing. Taurean Mauler, on the other hand, is a good turn one or two play. People are stupid afraid of Mauler (perhaps unjustly so, but afraid nonetheless). They almost always spend a counter or removal spell on him that they should be saving for a Moon or a superior creature. People rarely waste removal on a Sulfur Elemental. Mauler is poor in the late game, but I don't see why Sulfur is so awesome outside of the odd uninformed attack by the opponent.
I don't agree with your Pro/Cons list entirely, but the bottom line is this, if you must race your opponent and absolutely need a legit threat to resolve and swing/carry Jitte, I'd much rather have Sulfur Elemental in my hand than Taurean Mauler (the only exception being on turn 1/2).Split Second on Elemental is nice vs MBC and similar decks, but most decks aren't threatened enough by him to counter him anyway.
Pro's of Mauler:
Good early play
People overrate his value and go out of their way to kill him
Can potentially be huge
Randomly good vs Countersliver and Storm decks when they fail to go off.
Con's of Mauler:
Sub-par late-game topdeck.
Poor synergy with Chalice and Trinisphere.
Pro's of Sulfur Elemental
Can't be countered.
Can pull combat tricks.
Good vs slow control (kills Decree of Justice tokens, can't be countered).
Can be good vs White Weenie.
Con's of Sulfur Elemental
Can be bad vs White Weenie (increased damage).
Sub-par early play.
Isn't much of a threat by himself.
how would you play a hand with:
traitors, mountain, song, dragon, moon, simian ( -1 cause mulligan)
Excuse my errors, English is not my native language. I'm Italian.
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise....
Not enough information - playing or drawing? any idea what you're playing against? If you do, does it have counterspells? Quick pinpoint removal? Is it heavy on non-basics or is it heavy with basics? Game 1, 2 or 3?
TL,DR: if you think Saito is ok, check your moral compass. It may be broken. - Spikey Mikey, amen brother
WE know what the price of progress is (often 8-10 life). - Cait Sith
A casual stasis deck? You must not really like your friends. Do you play it before or after you pull the wings off of flys and microwave the neighbor's cat? - EwokSlayer
Would have to see the first two draws... but against a generic deck... Turn 1 mountain... Turn 2 Traitors into Simian Spirit Guide-Dragon generally, particularly if the draw is a permanent mana source... Then Turn 3, if it was a mana source, Song, Moon, Land, Empty hand, Rar Rar Dragon. Rush Moon if you see them fetching non-basics...
I probably wouldn't lead Mountain, Go on this hand like I would occasionally do on a seven-card hand.
Unless I knew specifically that doing so wasn't a good play based on my opponent's deck, my opening play would be City of Traitors, pitch SSG, Moon, pass. If your Moon gets Forced, you probably lose, but with this hand? If your opponent had a Force you probably were going to lose anyway. Your chances of stealing a win on a first turn moon here are pretty high, and when you have to mull to 6, you need to take chances at instant wins.
I might go Mountain, Go here if I knew my Moon wouldn't be very effective even if it hit. Also, against certain decks where speed mattered most, I might drop the Dragon turn one off SSG/Song. A lot depends on your information.
Unfortunately, this is a horrible deck to ever goldfish... Goldfishing Dragon Stompy is like selecting a club for golf, blindfolded. The only blind swing I almost always take is if I'm on the go, if I see Chalice for 1 with ancient tomb or mox, I take it. If I can get a read on my opponent, I *might* choose Moon over it as a quick-drop. Sometimes, your opponent just... reacts as humans do after you play an ancient tomb and tap it... expecting a Chalice. That reaction might cause me to throw down the Mox/SSG and go for a Moon of some form instead if I have both. After I see my opponent's first play, I then kick up the spurs... I only Operation: Dumbo Drop if I know what my opponent is playing or I have no other real plays...
My play G1-go would have also been city, ssg -> moon and hope to some day draw a land or something. I was a little worried though if I play too risky but seeing that Taco would have made the same play makes me feel a little happy.
The bad thing is that if your opp. scoops before his first turn it's really difficult to sb correctly
Out of curiosity, how would you play this godly hand g1,go:
mountain, tomb, chalice, magus, song, slogger, ssg ?
I think I'd just play safe and go with the most of it:
1) tomb -> chalice
2) mountain -> magus
3) rfg ssg, song -> arse-slogger (that's how finnish usually pronounce it, not intentionally though)
But I am tempted to go first turn slogger, second turn magus.
Or you could just mulligan it and hope to get to play some actual magic
Assuming you know absolutely nothing about the deck your opponent is playing?
I'd be very tempted to just say the hell with the Arc-Slogger and go Tomb, SSG, Song, Chal-1, Magus. There are very very few decks in existence that can deal with a Moon effect and a Chal-1 being down before they get an opening turn, and almost none of them can do it consistently. If the Slogger were, say, a Gathan Raiders (Or any other 3-drop sans maybe Akroma), you automatically take this route.
The safer (and probably wiser) play is to just go Tomb, Chalice-1, setting yourself up for either a turn two Song/Slogger with protection from STP, or a Magus of the Moon if you need it more.* Plus, Tomb/Chal-1 doesn't tell your opponent for certain what you're playing. Tomb, Chalice-1, go is never bad against an unknown opponent.
Also, If the Magus were a regular Blood Moon, you definitely take the second option, because the first play is only decent with a threat involved.
If you know what deck you're up against, you decide what you need on the board when. There are definitely cases where the turn one Moon is correct, and same for the turn one Slogger. There are also cases against control decks (Or certain other decks) where the correct play might be Mountain, Go aiming to set up a Chalice for 2 the next turn.
*I'll always play the Magus before the Song/Slogger here if my opponent's first land drop is a nonbasic (excluding a fetchland) or sometimes, a Swamp. The reason you don't lead the Slogger into the swamp is to avoid the 600 black creature removal spells that cost, especially Edict effects which the Magus can guard against. However, by holding the Slogger back here you risk Hymn to Tourach. So take your pick.
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