[Deck] Ichorid

[Ozymandias]

Putrid Imp is better than Street Wraith because the chances of your opponent having Force of Will in his opening hand are about 40 percent, and It provides an out to GY hate. It also provides you with a must-counter spell.

[smoky squirrel]

Any comments on this list:

Land
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Colisseum

Dredgers
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

Draw
4 Breakthrough
3 Deep Analysis
1 Cephalid Sage
2 Careful Study/2 Street Wraith

Other
4 LED
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge From Below
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba

Sideboard
4 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Echoing Truth

I don't know if all the numbers are optimal... And I don't know which to take, Careful Study, or the uncounterable black Street Wraith, I'm leaning towards Wraith, but I am afraid that the digging power of Careful Study is better to get my answers game 2 and 3. Echoing Truth in side is to remove multiple pieces of hate, or tokens (Goblin or Zombie)

[Brehn]

How often do you find yourself casting Echoing Truth?

[smoky squirrel]

When you need to cast it (say, with a Leyline on the board, or a Yixlid Jailer) you are not dredging. So you will draw that second land and you are able to cast the spell. So yes, when you would need it, you can cast it. I just wanted a good answer against multiple permanents of the same type. We just have no good answer against 2 Leylines, 2 Yixlid, 2 Samurai of the Pale Curtain, and those do come up. Plus, they help against the mirror, and help against storm combo, the latter being a bad matchup.

[Proz0r]

@ Brehn

Obviously you are right in the Street Wraith vs Putrid Imp discussion. But why do you play 4 Putrid Imps? Why not more (as in Tireless Tribe)? Is 4 the optimal number? I don't assume that the non-removability for Ichorid will stop you from playing Tribe.

[Brehn]

Non-removability for Ichorid, 1/5 wall instead of 2/2 flying beater, no more available slots. And, I'm happy with the amount of mulligans I have to take. For reference, my current mainboard is the same as smoky squirrel's (-1 Coliseum +1 Undiscovered Paradise for more consistant Gambles out of the board). In my testing I've discovered that the only slot that is debatable in a general meta is the third Analysis. Options are the 3rd Return, the 3rd Study or the 1st Tribe.

Tribe is good if you expect
1) multiple Crypts. Unfortunately, people have discovered that most Ichorid players don't care about Crypts that much, so more decks are splashing black for graveyard hate (see UWb Landstill), preferring black splashes to others (see UGb Threshold) or create new metadecks with black (see The Epic Control). Also, they're discovering that Extirpate is underrated in general.
2) red removal spells and/or some fat creatures that have to be blocked. See "Goyf Sligh".
3) Doran. Ok, disregard that.

So in any meta with black, Tribe is really just P.Imp number 5 for mulliganning purposes. And I'm happy enough with my mulligans right now. Remember, with every Putrid Imp/Tireless Tribe you add to the deck, you're increasing its consistancy while slowing it down. Aggro and Combo decks won't forgive slow starts all the time.

[Maagler]

I have been testing the tribes and i am an advocate for them. I like the ability for them to efficiently combat crypt, and I also like the higher consistency with them in the deck. I have found that 5-6 Pimps seems to fit into the deck perfectly. I see more keepable hands that go: Pimp/tribe, Land, dregger and I always keep them. Also they provide some big blockers against goyf.

[dlevsApiJ]

Instead of what have you tested it? I really like the card,, but cant find slots for it.. Only the Careful Studys (maybe cutting 1 for "the 5th Imp")

O, and about the FKZ, I will play 1 SB, cause MB most of the time you SB it out.. And I had 1 SB place, and no place MB.. I play it instead of the Sage in my SB (see my last list)..

And against the question:

Brehn (cause you also play with Gamble SB), what do you SB out when the Gambles + 3/4 other cards come in? Cause last tourney I really saw my deck became very slow after SBing..

Jip

[Jaynel]

O, and about the FKZ, I will play 1 SB, cause MB most of the time you SB it out.. And I had 1 SB place, and no place MB.. I play it instead of the Sage in my SB (see my last list)..

Jip

This really doesn't make sense. I feel like you want the deck to be AS RETARDED AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE in Game 1. FKZ is absolutely necessary to achieve this - he's simply awesome in the maindeck. The rest of the match usually slows down, as you bring in cards that dilute the combo but aid against hate.

[dlevsApiJ]

You saw the post spirit of the wretch? That are the cards/MU where I want the FKZ.. Like enchantress gonna board their Moats/Grasses out,, or Staxx his Prisons/Magus of the Tabernacles.. Of cource not,, G2 you also need the FKZ here, but I wont play it main, cause these decks are very rarely played, and I dont have the MB slots for him..

And in most MU's, you dont have to be really fast G1, cause they dont have hate to you.. Please say why you have to be so fast G1,, I dont see it..

[Jaynel]

You really don't want to leave anything to chance Game 1, that's why I feel speed is important. If you somehow manage to lose the first game, chances are very good that you will lose the match.

[Brehn]

And in most MU's, you dont have to be really fast G1, cause they dont have hate to you.. Please say why you have to be so fast G1,, I dont see it..

Yes, they have hate. They have Engineered Explosives or Pernicious Deed or Devastating Dreams or Wrath of God or Cataclysm or Aluren or Cunning Wish->Echoing Truth or Burning Wish->Pyroclasm or Glittering Wish->C/Punishment. Those can all be topdecked. And if you returned a Grave-Troll, any of these + a chumpblocker can steal the game. Let's take spiritofthewretch's list and complete it:

Ichorid
Cephalid Breakfast
Anything with Enlightened Tutor
Burn
Stax
Enchantress
High Tide Combo
4c Landstill (EE/Deed)
UW/UWb Landstill (EE/Wrath/C.Wish)
Aluren (Aluren/Deed)
Death & Taxes (Cataclysm)
Angel Stompy (Cataclysm)
Rabid Wombat, Mighty Quinn (Wrath, Moat)
RGSA, RGBSA (B.Wish)
Aggro Loam, CAL/r (B.Wish / Dreams)
The Rock/Doran/Funkbrew/Truffle Shuffle (Deed / G.Wish)
Some Deadguy/g-Variants (Deed)
MUC (Propaganda/C.Wish)
TEC (Wrath)
Rifter (Pyroclasm, Slice and Dice)
Polar Express (topdecked win)
Life.dec (topdecked win)
MossNought (topdecked win)
I will Survive (topdecked win)
Gargangel Stompy (Moat)
Train Wreck (Decree of Pain, Damnation, Deed, Punishment)
Anything with Trinket Mage
43land (Tabernacle <- Gamble)
Pox (Tabernacle, Ghostly Prison)
Eternal Garden (Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm <- Crop Rotation)

Those are rarely played, you say? Some of them yes, some of them no. I don't like losing to random jank. I especially don't like losing to random jank game 1. (Not that all of the listed decks are jank...)
This should be the guideline:

You really don't want to leave anything to chance Game 1, that's why I feel speed is important. If you somehow manage to lose the first game, chances are very good that you will lose the match.

[Muradin]

Looking at all those Extended lists I am not sure whether running a full playset of Ichorid and Cabal Therapy is the right choice. I think in every Matchup but heavy Control like Landstill 4 Ichorid seem to be overkill and just take up precious slots. Of course cutting an Ichorid would weaken the eot--> discard mode a bit but on the other hand it would give us the possibility to fit a full playset of Careful Study or Street Wraith into the deck which would really improve the quality of the draws a lot.
Nevertheless I think we shouldn't completely play the Extended style. Akroma is definately not that good in legacy and Tireless Tribe gets outclassed by LED + Deep Analysis. Furthermore we always have to keep in mind that there is Swords to Plowshares in Legacy which is a possibility to finally get rid of one of our Ichorids.
So what do you think, can one Ichorid/Therapy be cutted from the maindeck?

[Tacosnape]

One Ichorid could concievably be, but I doubt it.

Cutting a Cabal Therapy from this deck is under no circumstances whatsoever the right choice. Therapy lets you amass Zombie armies, knock Trolls out of your own hand, and quickly disrupt any fast strategy or answer your opponent has, including taking down Tormod's Crypt and Planar Void if you get a good enough start on game 3.

[Nihil Credo]

This is something I noticed in Smoky Squirrel's list, but it's possible other Ichorid players have made this mistake:


If you've cut every non-blue, non-black spell from your lists (i.e. no Gamble, no Ray of Revelation, etc.), then stop playing rainbow lands and run eight blue duals of your choice. 4 Seas if you have them, and probably 4 Ravnica duals or painlands (getting a fetchland Stifled can be ugly).

Incidentally, this also gives you the option of running Wonder again.

[Tacosnape]

If you've cut every non-blue, non-black spell from your lists (i.e. no Gamble, no Ray of Revelation, etc.), then stop playing rainbow lands and run eight blue duals of your choice. 4 Seas if you have them, and probably 4 Ravnica duals or painlands (getting a fetchland Stifled can be ugly).

I thoroughly agree with this. Watery Grave/Underground Sea is a pretty strong setup, and as the only off-color cards I ever want are enchantment removal spells, this seems like a pretty solid idea.

Incidentally, this also gives you the option of running Wonder again.

What? And open ourselves up to Hurricane? And you call yourself an adept.

This is a really strong idea, though. This lets us swing with annoying 1/1's on the table much more frequently.

[smoky squirrel]

@Nihil

No mistake running the rainbow lands. I'd much rather run the Underground Seas and such, I just don't have 'em... Some are coming my way though. As for the Echoing Truth, they are really nice actually, and I cast them as much as I would cast Ray of Revelation or Ancient Grudge.

[Nihil Credo]

Even if you don't have Underground Seas or Polluted Deltas, Underground River is a strict upgrade over City of Brass, and Watery Grave is generally considered better than Underground River.

[Bovinious]

Obviously if you are not running Rays/Grudge SB the rainbow lands go out and in go USeas and Graves, but its almost definitely a mistake to cut the Rays/Grudge from the SB, they answer so many things you just cant any other way.

[Muradin]

What do you actually think about Cephalid Sage? What is the right number for them? 0, 1, 2? At the moment I am running 2 to make sure the eot discard plan works out well, but I might change it because drawing them in your opening hand is really annoying. Furthermore I think, that they might be overkill quite often. Actually the whole Dread Returns plan with running FKZ and Sage and more than 2 DR might be overkill, nevertheless it wins game that couldn't be won otherwise. In my opinion the only way to make the DR Package reliable is to play at least 3 Dread Return, 1 FKZ + 1-2 Sage.