[OLD] UGb Threshold

[Adan]

I played this yesterday..

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
2 Stifle
2 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Island

Sideboard

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Engineered Plague
2 Pithing Needle
2 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Krosan Grip
1 Thoughtseize
1 Stifle

Thoughts on the deck:

-The manabase was very good. I boarded Island out every round except the one where I played against GW Stax.
-Engineered Explosives is better than I thought it would be. Definetly should be at least 2 in the 75.
-Boarded Nimble Mongoose out a lot. I suppose it's necesary, but it's pretty bad in many matchups.
-Everybody played around Stifle by cracking fetchlands while I was tapped out. Then when they'd Brainstorm or use Top they wouldn't have a shuffle effect. Stifle must be unreal if it makes people do that. However, I don't know if I need to play it because everybody plays around it anyways. But those slots have to be a blue card.
-Thoughtseize is unreal good.

Having not played the format since Flash was legal, I went with a deck that had already been played to sucess. However, I'm not sure if the changes I made were good or bad. I wasn't sure where to post it, so I posted it here.

So you was faster than me... Maybe. I also planned to play UGbw, just to have StoPs.

It's quite similar to your list:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Underground Sea
2 [B] Tundra

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

But actually, this is not my own shit. I think I have to "credit" this guy:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=12277

But Stifles are crap. I don't know what they are useful for. Manadenial makes no sense since you don't play Waste-effects. Ang against combo? Lol, NQG eats combo for Breakfast, no matter what build, no matter whether you play Stifle or not.

[Liek]

OMS was playing almost Patrick Chapin's list, which I helped develop and test for worlds </shameless self promotion>.

Without Stifle your maindeck blue card count is pretty low. Has that been a problem? (on second inspection, you're at 19, I'm at 20. Not too big of a difference.) I agree that Stifle isn't very good.

Trygon Predator seems insane. I'll have to try that if I play the deck again.

I have no idea about how this format works, but is Jailer better than Leyline?

Do we need to have any cards for the Blood Moon deck, or is that not a real deck?

[Dilettante]

OMS was playing almost Patrick Chapin's list, which I helped develop and test for worlds </shameless self promotion>.

Without Stifle your maindeck blue card count is pretty low. Has that been a problem? (on second inspection, you're at 19, I'm at 20. Not too big of a difference.) I agree that Stifle isn't very good.

Trygon Predator seems insane. I'll have to try that if I play the deck again.

I have no idea about how this format works, but is Jailer better than Leyline?

Do we need to have any cards for the Blood Moon deck, or is that not a real deck?

Not really, if you are thinking of Jailer for the Ichorid matchup... because these days, they are prepared for them... with Darkblasts to draw/quickiedredge into. The format does revolve around a lot of cards with 1 toughness...

[Adan]

Not really, if you are thinking of Jailer for the Ichorid matchup... because these days, they are prepared for them... with Darkblasts to draw/quickiedredge into. The format does revolve around a lot of cards with 1 toughness...

Oh yeah, Darkblast is a huge reason to run Ley-Lines over Jailers.

The reason why I decided to play Jailers is that Jailers disrupt Ichorid and Cephalid Breakfast, being able to apply some beatz himself and not stuck in the hand like Leyline when he get's bounced. Leylines also increase the manacurve, which might be unfavourable.

Jailer has also got the advantage that he's also a midgame solution that can eventually be searched via cantrips. Try to do that with the 4-Mana-Leyline.

I have to mention that I "stole" the Trygon Predators from goobafish because I thought about our random Stax- and Affinity-infested meta. In such a meta they are ridiculously good, but I think they can make way for... *insert random useful card* in a *insert random archetype*-Meta.

Blood Moon? Didn't thought about that. My "old" list (2 pages before) ran maindeck Repeals, so bouncing Blood Moon and then thoughtseizing them was not that huge problem...

But if you are worried about Blood Moon, maybe exchange the Trygon Predators with Hydroblasts. Hm, Annul could also be quite techy, though it sounds gay.

The "blue-cards-count" might be correct, but I didn't noticed it during the tournament...

[Dilettante]

If you want to make Jailers much more effective against Ichorid, it is all in how you handle your cards and present yourself... Drop/flash a Leyline when you swap cards and keep the number of cards swapped low.... say five, the other four being face-down Jailers... Your opponent will juke left and you run right.

[kikkofrio]

But you have to consider that jailer doesn't stop wasteland-recurision by crucible, that is one of the most daungerous weakness of black-threshold. Your mana base isn't so solid and you don't play neither stifle (like tempo version) nor needle (like ugw).

If you want to play jailer at all costs, you should spilt them with extirpate (like hybrid shit does).

[Thehunter820]

I'm considering gettin the cards for a thresh deck, while I think im going to go with Ugw, im still considering Ugb, as its pretty nice too, now I think I have a fairly good idea of what's needed and how to play it and all, but I was wondering how come ghastly demise isnt run by more people, the only weaknesses I can find is that its not that great for the first 2 turns, which could mean u wudnt have an answer for lackey right away but im sure you could have something else in hand.

[Adan]

But you have to consider that jailer doesn't stop wasteland-recurision by crucible, that is one of the most daungerous weakness of black-threshold. Your mana base isn't so solid and you don't play neither stifle (like tempo version) nor needle (like ugw).

If you want to play jailer at all costs, you should spilt them with extirpate (like hybrid shit does).

Well, I DO play a 3/3 split of Extirpate and Jailer. That's why I don't need Leylines imo.
Those are solutions I don't HAVE TO mulligan for. That's the advantage. But if you are talking about Waste-Lock, you have to keep in mind that that is ALWAYS bad for NQG, no matter which build unless you have a Pithing Needle out (which could be played by every build).

[fetchesbasiclands]

I'm considering gettin the cards for a thresh deck, while I think im going to go with Ugw, im still considering Ugb, as its pretty nice too, now I think I have a fairly good idea of what's needed and how to play it and all, but I was wondering how come ghastly demise isnt run by more people, the only weaknesses I can find is that its not that great for the first 2 turns, which could mean u wudnt have an answer for lackey right away but im sure you could have something else in hand.

Ghastly Demise is almost stricktly inferior to Smother,which handles more threats than Demise and isn't affected by your graveyard.I can't think of a single creature in the current meta that Demise could kill and Smother couldn't.Maybe it could be played as Smother no:5 though.

[Nihil Credo]

Ghastly Demise is almost stricktly inferior to Smother

Except for that 50% discount on mana cost, you mean?

[fetchesbasiclands]

Except for that 50% discount on mana cost, you mean?

Yeah,that's right.I would run Smother anyhow in almost any case,since it deals with Bobs etc..And it is also guaranteed to kill your opponents Goyfs,Noughts and whatever no matter how much cards in your grave.

[Thehunter820]

Ghastly Demise is almost stricktly inferior to Smother,which handles more threats than Demise and isn't affected by your graveyard.I can't think of a single creature in the current meta that Demise could kill and Smother couldn't.Maybe it could be played as Smother no:5 though.

Oh no, I wasnt saying to use in place of smother, that card is set in stone, but I've seen ppl using other removal past smother that wasnt ghastly demise, and I was just wondering the reasoning

[Dilettante]

Oh no, I wasnt saying to use in place of smother, that card is set in stone, but I've seen ppl using other removal past smother that wasnt ghastly demise, and I was just wondering the reasoning

Here's a cut-and-paste I put on another thread comparing Shriekmaw / Terror to Smother...
Shriekmaw / Terror
Rakdos Pit-Dragon
Arc-slogger
Sower of Temptation
Exalted Angel
Gathan Raiders
Auriok Salvagers
Silvos, Rogue Elemental
Siege-Gang Commander
Ravenous Baloth
Phantom Nishoba

Smother
Psychatog
Arcbound Ravager
Nantuko Shade
Dark Confidant
Phyrexian Negator
Hypnotic Specter
Withered Wretch
Mishra's Factory
Shadowmage Infiltrator
Chimeric Idol
Phyrexian Dreadnought


For an alternate comparison between Shriekmaw / Terror vs. Ghastly Demise in the first few turns, we would have to consider the differences in tempo. I'll mark (IMO) tempo advantage with * as opposed to kill ability, a rough estimate of when to expect something to come out, like Dragon Stompy powering out Arc-Slogger on turn 1-2. Something to note is that Ghastly Demise still allows regeneration.

Shriekmaw / Terror
Tarmogoyf*
Gathan Raiders*
Arc-Slogger*
Knight of the Holy Nimbus
Silvos, Rogue Elemental
Fledgling Dragon*
Phantom Nishoba*
Yavimaya Enchantress
Serendib Efreet*

Ghastly Demise
Goblin Lackey*
Goblin Welder*
Mishra's Factory
Chimeric Idol
Silent Arbiter
Savannah Lions*
Jungle Lion*
Jackal Pup*
Grim Lavamancer*

Then there's Diabolic Edict... I consider it better than either of the above on top of Smother. Here are the reasons:

Nimble Mongoose
Troll Ascetic
Simian Sky Swallower
Silhana Ledgewalker
Plated Slagwurm
Dark Confidant
Paladin En-Vec
Akroma, Angel of Wrath
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Sutured Ghoul
Hypnotic Specter
Nantuko Shade

[Zach Tartell]

Yavimaya Enchantress

Is that really worth worrying about? I mean, are we all on the same page when we thing "Yavimaya Enchantress?"

I'm bringing UGb thresh to the Hadley tournament in a week, since I think that it's probably the best of all (in respect to mirrors). Here's what I'm thinking, since I expect Thresh, Dragon Stompy, and Stax (unless everyone's lying about what'll be there):

Land:
1 Swamp
1 Forest (using the prayer method for fetching it)
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

Creatures:
3 Sea Drake
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
2 Shreikmaw

Spells and such:
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Sensei's Diving Top
3 Counterbalance
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize (in reality 2 Duress 2 Throughseize, but I reckon I might be able to pick up two at the site or steal two from teammates)

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Yixlid Jailer / Tormod's Crypt / Extirpate (I need feedback on this slot)
3 Something (Engineered Plague, more artifact hate, more hydroblasts or something, or spell snares or stifles for combo maybe)

My reasoning on the Cabal Therapys in the board is that I run way too many creatures, so I may as well have a little something extra against combo (which is probably pretty good already, being as I'm playing thresh). THey might come in against control, too. Actually, they definitely will.

Sea Drake because 1: I don't own and haven't been able to find any Tygron Predators; 2. He beats Tygon Predators; 3: He's a pretty solid clock; 4: he costs 3. I feel like I'm missing out on my 4 slot, but I hope the game doesn't go that far, then. I chose 'Drake over Tombstalker because it really sucks to flip Tombstalker off a bob turn three. Like, a whole bunch.

I guess Confidant doesn't really count as a creature, if the Hatfields are correct - he's more like a Draw spell that gets countered by Swords, but that' s nice, 'cause then Tarmogoyf gets to play.

I seriously need some help on the sideboard, though. I really hate saying that Thresh is the best deck out there, but it honestly might be, so I'ma give it a shot.

[Jaynel]

I think Extirpate is the right slot in the sideboard. It's efficient against Ichorid (an early one on Bridge from Below makes winning very difficult) and can also help out in other matchups. Yixlid Jailer, though very good against Ichorid as well, seems ONLY good against Ichorid and isn't really effective against many other decks.

[Nihil Credo]

0) Your removal suit is horribly expensive. EE in particular, while not terrible, is at its worst when you're running the most cheap permanents of any Threshold list.
1) Better to run less Thoughtseizes but the full 4 Confidants. There's only so much life loss you can afford, and one option is clearly more powerful. Confidants die easily yet a surviving Bob will win you the game.
2) Extirpate in the SB is an absolute must. I believe in a CB version it's even more of a reason to splash black than Confidant. Predict is only somewhat worse than Bob, but Crypt is a hell of a lot worse than Extirpate.
3) Therapy in the SB is terrible. Against control, you want to SB in Grip and Extirpate, so you don't have room for Therapy. Stifle would be a lot more useful.
4) Breeding Pool > Forest if you expect Extirpate. If you are hoping that it will let you operate with a Moon in play, then ignore this, though I think it would take one hell of a hate metagame to make the gamble worth it.
5) 1 Island is enough. Against Blood Moon, Counterbalance is weak. Against other forms of nonbasic hate, you need only to use a dual once.
6) Do you expect the new Warren Weirding Goblins to be present? If so, you need Plagues in the SB. If not, you can get away with Blue Elemental Blasts.

For the record, here is the general framework I currently use for Black Thresh:

4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island OR 3 Tropical + 1 Breeding Pool (meta call)

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
3 Daze

2 Ghastly Demise
2 Diabolic Edict

5 open slots, options include:
- Daze #4
- Ghastly Demise #3
- Up to 2 of: Vedalken Shackles, Trygon Predator, Counterspell
- Up to 3 of: Spell Snare, Pithing Needle, Thoughtseize, Stifle

SB:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
3-4 Extirpate
0-2 Diabolic Edict
0-3 Engineered Plague
Any number of cards not picked from the open slots above


EDIT: I didn't notice your metagame analysis. Based on that, I would recommend for the variable slots in the MD: 4 Tropical Island, Daze #4, 2 Predators, 2 Spell Snare. For the SB, 3 Extirpate, 2 Edicts, 3 Pithing Needle.

[Obfuscate Freely]

1) Better to run less Thoughtseizes but the full 4 Confidants. There's only so much life loss you can afford, and one option is clearly more powerful. Moreover, Confidants die easily yet a surviving Bob will win you the game.

This is wrong. Thoughtseize is amazing, and by far the biggest reason to splash black. Play four or go home.

Zach, your manabase is terrible. Why do you feel the need to run nonblue basics? Dropping a game here or there to a Blood Moon effect is not as bad as losing games throughout a tournament because your own manabase screwed you over harder. Your manabase should be optimized, first and foremost, to let you play your spells. Fighting through mana denial is secondary. Try this:

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
1x Island

This manabase is extremely resilient to Wasteland, because it is so redundant. As Nihil suggested, you can work in a Ravdual or two, if you're really worried about Wasteland + Extirpate.

I think Ghastly Demise's efficiency makes it significantly better than Shriekmaw and Engineered Explosives. If you expect Dark Confidants and other things that Demise can't kill, consider Smother, as well.

Sea Drake is awesome. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

You have a good start on the sideboard. Krosan Grip and Blue Elemental Blast are both solid. Cabal Therapy doesn't seem great, though. Against control decks, boarding up to four Counterbalances and four Confidants will do more good than bringing in Therapies. I would probably put Plagues into the open slot.

I'm not sure if the graveyard hate is justifiable. Will there be enough Ichorid there to warrant it? Will three Extirpates make enough of an impact in that matchup, anyway? I think you should use these slots to shore up other matchups (this is where you could fit some Trygon Predators, for example).

[Whit3 Ghost]

Zach, as a matter of personal preference, I would run UGb Canadian/Tempo Thresh.

4 Underground Sea
4 Trop
3 Delta
3 Strand
4 Wasteland

4 Goose
4 Goyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Demise
2 EE/Smother/Edict/Bounce

Board some number of Duress, Blasts, Kgrip, Needle and Extirpate. If you really feel it's necessary, you can also board into the Counterbalance engine. If there's going to be that much Stax/Dstompy, board Deeds if you can't get Predators and possibly even if you can.

You have at 6 removal spells for the mirror in addition to a very strong Discard package, with Extirpate out of the board to take advantage of the Wastes and Discard.

[Adan]

This is wrong. Thoughtseize is amazing, and by far the biggest reason to splash black. Play four or go home.

Zach, your manabase is terrible. Why do you feel the need to run nonblue basics? Dropping a game here or there to a Blood Moon effect is not as bad as losing games throughout a tournament because your own manabase screwed you over harder. Your manabase should be optimized, first and foremost, to let you play your spells. Fighting through mana denial is secondary. Try this:

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
1x Island

This manabase is extremely resilient to Wasteland, because it is so redundant. As Nihil suggested, you can work in a Ravdual or two, if you're really worried about Wasteland + Extirpate.

I think Ghastly Demise's efficiency makes it significantly better than Shriekmaw and Engineered Explosives. If you expect Dark Confidants and other things that Demise can't kill, consider Smother, as well.

Sea Drake is awesome. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

You have a good start on the sideboard. Krosan Grip and Blue Elemental Blast are both solid. Cabal Therapy doesn't seem great, though. Against control decks, boarding up to four Counterbalances and four Confidants will do more good than bringing in Therapies. I would probably put Plagues into the open slot.

I'm not sure if the graveyard hate is justifiable. Will there be enough Ichorid there to warrant it? Will three Extirpates make enough of an impact in that matchup, anyway? I think you should use these slots to shore up other matchups (this is where you could fit some Trygon Predators, for example).

The Truth³!

But yes, 3 Extirpates and 3 Jailers are justified, just because spiritofthewretch plays Ichorid all the time (because he lacks too much skill to pilot any other deck that is not from the "combo" archetype) here. And the possibility to win against Ichorid - which is usually a autoloss - justifies the usage of the black splash, as well as the versatility of Thoughtseize and the cardadvantage of Confidant.

I played it today after dropping at the PTQ and I really fell in love with the black splash. Extirpate is also a insanely versatile card that often replaces Pithing Needle here (against all those loam-decks, land.decs, Landstills, mirror, Ichorid and whatsoever).

[Nihil Credo]

This is wrong. Thoughtseize is amazing, and by far the biggest reason to splash black. Play four or go home.

I've played Thoughtseize and I don't disagree that it's tremendously powerful. I just think it doesn't win as many games as Confidant does.

Unless the meta is sorely lacking in aggro and aggro-control, if you want to play 4 Thoughtseize then you must run Predict as your CA draw spell. With Confidant in the deck, I always had to fall back on 2-3 copies.