All Nihil's points are legit, but I'd have to say that I've always found Chalice to be the MVP vs. Red Thresh. Burn can really hurt this deck as everything we run save Slogger can be easily killed by a bolt (if they are smart they can usually catch Raiders when you don't have Hellbent since burn is instant speed). Jitte is a house if you get it going, but it is so threat dependent that that isn't always possible.
I've never seen him so upset....or ever before.
That is why in my plan I removed the raiders to make space for Tarox. Since lots of basic burners like using things that deal 3 for one mana, it is rare that Fireblast is used outside of Red Sligh unless they find a way to recoup fast.Originally Posted by Phantom
R Threshold by far uses Bolt and Pyroclasm to kill stuff, but if somebody has found a way to fit in Fireblast and make it effective I will be very impressed.
I don't see this logic here. You're replacing the BEST (or at least second best) creature in the deck in order to make room for a much harder to cast creature that might barely do more damage, doesn't help us get hellbent, and STILL dies to a bolt unless you happen to be holding another Tarox (which happens in like 15% of games.
I'm begging you not to do this.
I've never seen him so upset....or ever before.
Uh.
Okay, point 1, Tarox dies to Lightning Bolt far far far more often than Gathan Raiders ever will.
Point 2, we maindeck four Chalice of the Void. Lightning Bolt is not the world's largest issue.
Point 3, Gathan Raiders is the best red creature in Legacy. He's also the best colorless creature in Legacy. If colorless were a color, he'd share a title with Tarmogoyf, who's the best blue and green creature in Legacy. If you're going to run jank like Tarox, he is not the correct cut. At all. Gathan Raiders singlehandedly kicked Razormane Masticore to the curb. He should do the same with Tarox.
If Gathan Raiders didn't exist and we, DS players, were given a chance to MAKE A CREATURE which WotC would then print; IT WOULD BE GATHAN RAIDERS WITH MOUNTAINWALK! He's just designed for this deck.
Holy God. This just gave me an insane idea to try Mountain Yeti in this deck. Unblockability and protection from Swords to Plowshares sounds pretty tasty.
I think I'll sleep first and then see if it still sounds good though.
I have looked through gatherer for every available mountainwalker a long time ago, but didn't find anything I thought would be better that akroma/sulfur.
Mountain Yeti has terrible cc, I thought it would be a little too prohibitive. Maybe not, but I seriously doubt it's better than rakdos and I don't think we want more 4cc's. (The double red wouldn't be that terrible this time since the card is already so moon-dependant.)
Other mountainwalker I considered, but benched, were:
Colos Yearling (2R 1/1 mountainwalk - firebreathing)
Vug Lizard (1RR 3/4 mountainwalk - echo)
Now that I think of it, Colos Yearling actually is a little tempting (and fragile), but I think I'll leave judgement of these to Taco and others since I've already benched these once so I don't really trust my judgement on this. Mountain Yeti is probably the best of these since it has prot stop. They really should print better mountainwalkers, there's no good equipment that gives mountainwalk either :(
EDIT: Vug doesn't die to lightning bolt, and costs one less than mountain yeti. It's one or the other, but Vug comes online a turn faster, and the echo isn't that bad in theory since you don't probably topdeck a mana source to play that rakdos immediatly anyway, and if you do - just play it the next turn. Testing really should happen here since we're swimming deep in the sea of danger-of-cool-things.
How about Hell-Bent Raider:
Creature - Human Barbarian 2/2, 1RR (3)
First Strike, Haste.
Discard a card at random: Hell-Bent Raider gains protection from white until end of turn.
It could help to get helbend. I think is better than yeti.
At this point Masticore is even better
There's your problem. It's harder to cast then Sulpher Elemental, without being better then Sulpher Elemental.
Hell-bent raiders: considered and neglected.(Even though the name is very, very appealing) CC sucks, hits for only 2. I don't know how relevant that prot.thing might be but let me know if my first impression is off the wall.
Since we're now bouncing oddballs how about stingscourger? I't won't make md because it's too situational and does practically nothing if all goes well but in some mono-color aggro-matchup it could perform. I don't know.
Keldon Marauders was also slightly interesting, but sulrfurrsrs just plain better.
I've been looking and looking but I think we already play the best ones. I might actually take that mountain yeti in a legacy tournament in a few weeks or so just because we have so much UW-landstill here so that prot. swords is more useful than usual.
check this topic please, Masticore (ANY masticore) sucks like Mudhole in this deck.
SRLSY:
MASTICORE ONLINE = NO HELLBENT and vice versa.
Now tell me how is it any good.
I swear, if an "eh guyz pliz let's use a masticore111!!! It is da bomb!" will be posted again, I'll shout IRL and put a link in this 3d with a .mp3 file.
Excuse my errors, English is not my native language. I'm Italian.
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise....
He's saying Masticore is better than Hell-Bent Raiders.
Context=awesome.
Thank you for opening the floodgates of shitty red creature discussion. If a creature doesn't cost 3 mana, 2 of which is colorless, it better be a game breaker (read Slogger or Pit-Dragon).
Tarox is shit. The bounce goblin is shit. Mountain Yeti is shit. That mountain cycling cougar is shit. Lets move to more important discussion please.
Technically Phantom did that. He's the one that started the thread.I'm just adding fuel to the fire.
Thank you!
Starting with?
Sideboard discussion and SB with any MU ?
How we deal with "anything on board" ?
Excuse my errors, English is not my native language. I'm Italian.
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise....
Here`s a quick brainstorm
all this talk about Masticore, has anybody ever thought that if you have Masticore out you don`t need hellbent ? :P
nah just kidding wanted to ask if anybody tested against R/b vial goblins ?
Warren Weirding owns first turn slogger :( any thoughts on what to side other than Pyrokinesis in, moons out
test it, buy it, play it
Have to watch your matchup... Remember that Blood Moons still help. What weirding if they have a stack of badlands? Not to mention stripping away their mana denial so that all they can do is affect your board. Keep the Magus of the Moons, at the very least... and keep Trinisphere out. Pyrokinesis... and maybe Pithing Needle.
I think this is the reason alot of Goblin players are now playing a basic swamp maindeck. I'm not saying you're wrong, but its not something you can rely on. Also, post board they will side in Grips, and Incinerator will still be good, so moons aren't necessarily 'safe' disruption. I think the matchup is really dependant on the first 10-14 cards because the first person to jump through tempo usually keeps it, unless one of them goes something nuts like double Slogger/SGC
It's never "safe", never said it was... but you do wish to bushwhack them before they do get out that first swamp... and the bigger key is keeping down their wasteland and rishadan port. You being able to maintain 3-5 mana is more important than your ability to spike to 5 in this matchup where you just bash at their walls of chump blocks. Against R/B, though... Grips? Just always be aware of that hasted Tinkerer... I would think a Goblins player would rather let the Blood Moon sit in most cases rather than lose tempo unless you decided to throw everything behind an Arc-Slogger.
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