If you have hellbent 100% of the time by turn 5, then you're amazing. In my testing, I've not had this success rate. Also, I was talking about all control; Landstill, MUC, and Stax builds.Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Of course I would rather counter the initial threat, but I don't ALWAYS have a counter when you bust out a crazy DS hand; that has absolutely nothing to do with correct/incorrect lines of play. Also, you're assuming I'll always have a Factory to trade with. Again, if you have 100% success rate at having a Factory out exactly when that scenario occurs, then more power to you.Then you're usually playing incorrectly. If you'd countered the threat, the Jitte would be useless. If you have a counter, you'd be better off taking the Factory-for-Jitte'dGuy trade, then countering the -next- threat, otherwise you'll be facing two threats instead of one.
Again, you are assuming that Landstill is the only dedicated control in existence, and that you will always have a sweeper ready in hand/play when your DS opponent has a threat in play (likely) and then plays a Jitte. If I'm a control player, playing... oh say MUC, then I don't care about any of your creatures really except hellbent Pit Dragon, hellbent Gathan Raiders, and Arc-Slogger. I DO care about a non-threat (Magus/SSG/face-down critters) carrying a Jitte.Jitte is a never counter for Landstill. At least for the kinds that have board sweepers.
It's also worth noting that part of what makes the 2/2 guys less scary is that Landstill has manlands. If Landstill spends its counters on weak cards like Jitte, the counters won't be there for either threats that are larger than manlands or Dragon Stompy's -best- answer to manlands, Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon. Either one of those hitting play makes any 2/2 quite able to go the distance.
Then, again, you're playing incorrectly. Landstill should always take that trade if there's only one Jitte'd threat on the board, regardless of whether the Loam or Crucible is active or not.
I didn't know you were counting counters and manlands as removal; as the former doesn't do anything about a resolved critter and the latter is only situational removal at best. Your particular Landstill build is obviously removal heavy, but that is not exactly representative of most Landstill builds. Also, non-Landstill control decks run even less removal than removal-light Landstill builds, with MUC only running 4-6 (2-3 Powder Keg + 2-3 Vedalken Shackles).As for removal spells, count again. My Landstill runs 4 Force of Will, 4 Counterspell, 4 Swords to Plowshares, 3 Diabolic Edict, 4 Pernicious Deed, a Crime//Punishment, and 6 manlands to block. In addition, my 4C Landstill has 7 card draw spells and 4 Cantrips. While Landstill will likely have to spend a counter or two stopping Blood Moon, this is largely negated by the fact that Landstill has draw and Dragon Stompy doesn't.
I don't really understand your rationale. Of course Jitte is a non-counter if you are holding a sweeper, countered the initial threat, run a removal heavy build, assume that Landstill is the only control deck in Legacy, etc... but guess what. That does not always happen. If you have a 100% success rate at having the correct answer at the correct time, then the Magic gods must be smiling down on you. However, if you're ever in a position where DS busted out a good hand before you stabilize, and they play a Jitte w/ a Sulfur Elemental in play, and you happen to be holding a Spell Snare/Counterspell/Force Spike/Rune Snag, why wouldn't you counter the Jitte? I'd choose to counter way more than if that Jitte was a Magus/SSG/Elemental/face-down critter.
Without restricting the discussion to a specific control deck, it is impossible to do any detailed (i.e. card-by-card) analysis in the first place.
For example, Blood Moon (or Magus) wins on the spot vs. Landstill, is pretty bad against Stax, and useless against MUC. A naked SSG will just walk into a Factory against Landstill, but is much more likely to go the distance vs. Stax or MUC. Chalice is terrible against Stax, but it's pretty good at shutting down StP vs. Landstill. I could go on...
And incidentally, Landstill may not be the only control deck in Legacy, but worldwide it's still played ten times as much as any other.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
I was wondering - if you are on the go and land a 1st turn moon and have a chalice in hand: do you drop the chalice down also ( at 0 ) or do you wait and see what number does most damage?
I mean, chalice for 0 and moon is just terribly efficient mana-denial, but then again, if you stick a moon 1st turn it usually either wins you the game or doesn't make much difference. So it appears to be win-more on the other hand..
The chances of them having a Mox in hand are less than them having a basic land (or just, you know, playing Red). It's just not a good gamble.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
hmm, like Taco said, there is not much Room in the Mainboard, especially when you're playing Trini main, and don't want to play less than 7 Moon Effects...
My Questions...
What is a good Creature-Count? Sometimes you play Disruption, Disruption, Disruption, and only draw 1 or 2 Creatures... that sucks
But... much more important:
What are the Pro/Con-Arguments for:
1. Akroma, Angel of Fury
2. Sulfur Elemental
3. Taurean Mauler
YawG
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
:16:- (See, now Erratic Explosion's a deck)
Legendary Creature - Horror
Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
13/13
Dude... Read the thread.
Ah, be nice, the thread is 43 pages long...
I settled for a 22-creature count, and it has served me well. But others have tried for 24 and that would work too, if you are willing to let go of the trinisphere, at least MB. That is your decision, I opted for Trini main.
As for the creatures:
Taurean Mauler: I don't like him, he is counterproductive in this deck (stopping your opponent to play spells), he is a terrible topdeck (topdecking is what this deck does generally). He is FANTASTIC turn one or turn two, but I much rather play Raiders, Moon, ... turn one or two nevertheless.
Sulfur Elemental: Cheap, flash, uncounterable and 3 power. I like to see the other ability as gravy against Mangara and Breakfast decks. It can even come back and bite you in the ass on Serra Avengers and Exalted Angels. But then again, you are far in the game by then, and that should not happen with this deck. He blocks and kills Jotun Grunt too. I would play him only in a blue control meta with some Breakfast decks. He is not for my meta I think.
Akroma: I love her. A bomb against most forms of Landstill (that dont pack CoP:Red or Humility), and just a great creature overall. But I only run two as it is a not so early game card.
My two cents...
23 is a good creature count. So are 22 and 24. I don't personally recommend anything 21 or less, but builds have achieved success with 20-21. I don't recommend more than 26.
I personally play 24, but for the most part, 23 is probably the right number. If you play too much disruption you're getting more out of the Stax element than the aggro element and might as well be playing White Stax.
Shortened:But... much more important:
What are the Pro/Con-Arguments for:
1. Akroma, Angel of Fury
2. Sulfur Elemental
3. Taurean Mauler
1. Akroma is huge when flipped, the easiest to get out of your hand of the three, and lets you bluff Gathan Raiders that you don't have. She's fantastic against certain Landstill builds. She's the hardest to get full use out of, and she's the absolute worst in the Mirror.
2. Sulfur Elemental's biggest claim to fame is that he's never awful. Shuts down *.En-Kor, Decree of Justice tokens, and Harmonic Sliver. Makes Exalted Angel killable by Pyrokinesis. Is uncounterable, and can function as subpar removal by flashing in as a blocker for an attacking creature. Can kill Jotun Grunt, but most people by now are realizing Jotun Grunt is awful. Sulfur's biggest drawback is that he's never absolutely incredible, either.
3. Taurean Mauler is by far the best guy to have against RB Goblins and Threshold (Resistant to Weirding, loves Cantrips.) Better than Sulfur or Akroma in the first couple turns, but worse than either one of them late game. Capable of wreaking the most havoc on an opponent for the base three mana it takes to play him. Lacks any cool tricky abilities like the Flash-block or the Raiders-bluff. Has the bizarre drawback of making Plague for Humans weaken 12 threats in your deck, but nobody really boards in Plagues to do this.
In my opinion, Akroma's the worst of the three and Mauler-versus-Sulfur's completely a metagame call at this point. Mauler's better against Goblins, Threshold, and the Mirror. Sulfur's better against Cephalid Breakfast and isn't -bad- against anything.
You could always do a split, but I think Sulfur's the guy you take into a totally blind metagame. For now.
stax is a prison deck, not control
test it, buy it, play it
As for the Sulfur Elemental/Taurean Mauler/Akroma question, Tacosnape did a good job explaining the arguement, but here's what decks I've found each to be best against.
Sulfur Elemental:
Cephalid Breakfast
Survival
Death and Taxes/WW
Anything with Decree of Justice
White Stax
Taurean Mauler:
Goblins
Thresh
CounterSliver
Storm Combo (In case they try to go off and fail)
Burn (early)
Goyf Sligh (early)
Akroma:
Landstill
MUC
In general, Sulfur Elemental is a better late game topdeck than Taurean Mauler, because he swings for one point of damage more, assuming they don't play any spells, but it's not much of a difference. This is more than made up for by Taurean Mauler being excellent on turns one and two. Sulfur having flash isn't likely to swing the game late, nor is his having split second.
Real Men Play Guma.
That aside, personally I would rather have a 3/2 uncountable with flash combat tricks every single minute of every match than a card that is entirely dependent on your opponents game state and having been able to drop said card early on in the game. What are you going to mull for Mauler every match? Mauler just doesn't do it for me, maybe I am missing something feel free to pull my head out of my ass for me.
Last edited by socialite; 03-17-2008 at 10:55 PM.
Dragon Stompy doesn't mulligan well. Dragon Stompy is a deck that's success is largely based on its opening hands, due to its inability to draw cards outside of a draw step.
Therefore, the point of Mauler (Or any card that's best in the opening hand) is to have solid, powerful cards in every opening hand. This is in theory the same point of Trinisphere, but Trinisphere isn't always good in your opening hand, isn't Chrome Mox fodder, didn't actually kill the opponent, and has no mana denial backing it up. However, the logic still applies.
If you have a Mauler in your opening hand, he's better than if he were a Sulfur Elemental or a Red Akroma. If you don't have Mauler, then chances are higher you've got something else good. A turn one Chalice, turn one Moon/Magus, or what have you.
Obviously there are limits to the strength of this theory, as occasionally you will get more than seven draw steps and the odds will favor cards that are stronger in the late game. But that's the theory behind Mauler. Much like Moons and Chalices, he sometimes sets you in a very good position to win on your first turn.
Hello to everyone.
After reading almost each of the 42 pages in the post, I have finally decided to post. I have just built a DS deck and I tested it for the first time last Saturday in a small 8 player tournament.
I have never written reports, so here is my attempt of what I can remember.
My deck list was:
4 Tomb
4 City
10 Mountains
4 SSG
4 Seething Song
3 Mox (I have to get 1 more)
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice
4 Slogger
4 RPD
4 Raiders
4 Magus
3 Blood Moon
2 SoFI
2 Jitte
1 Sulfur Elemental
SB:
3 StarStorm
2 Pyroclasm
3 Shattering Spree
3 Needle
3 Sulfur Elemental
1 Trinisphere
Round 1: WR Rift
G1: My first game with this deck. I have to mull to 5 because I still don’t know what a good hand is. He keeps a good hand but he finds very few cards to cycle, so after a slow match he kills me with 2 Eternal Dragons. I got to cast some threats (which he burns with Slice and Dice) and some lock with Chalice 1 (against StP) and 2 (against further Rift), but they were useless against the Dragons.
G2: Mull to 6. I discover he cowardly runs CoP Red, but with a quick hand I can kill with unmorphed Raiders equipped with SoFI.
G3: Again, a very slow match. I lock with Chalices but he had got down a CoP. We don’t manage to kil each other and the mach time runs out (fortunately for me, as I couldn’t face the Dragons that might come into play).
Round 2: Goblins
G1: He starts Mountain-Lackey. I start with Tomb-Mox-SSG-Seething-Seething-Slogger-Trinisphere. Nothing more to say.
G2: I lock with Chalice 1 and Trinisphere. He slows my game with Rishadan port, and gets to run bigger goblins, to break my Trinisphere and to win me.
G3: He draws bad. I cast Chalice 1 and get to cast again an early Slogger which does the rest.
Round 3: Mirror
G1: I draw bad (lacking of red sources) and he gets a quick hand with hellbented riders.
G2: He keeps a hand with tomb mox, but I play a 1st turn big threat with a Chalice 0, which runs him out of red mana.
G3: I got an early dragon equipped with SoFI while he keeps a hand with no red mana and he doesn’t get to draw a mountain.
Round 4: Survival
G1: An early Magus and his bad luck (he draws nearly all the nonbasics he has in the deck) give the game to me.
G2: I get a Chalice for 2 and some threats but he gets a Deed (Academy Rector + Cabal Therapy) and the game is his.
G3: I get again a Chalice for 2 and a few later I topdeck a Needle just when he has cast a Deed without the mana to activate it yet. My dragon fles over his Rector.
Semifinal: WR Rift
G1: He plays a Rift and a Humility, but I get an unmorphed Raiders equipped with SoFI which protected against StP with Chalice 1 give the game to me.
G2 and G3 were similar to the first matches: slow games with me trying to cast Chalice 2 to avoid CoP and Rift and Chalice 1 before playing any big threat to avoid StP and him disenchanting my chalices and burning Slicing and Dicing my threats over and over. He finally gets Dragons which kill me on the G2 and 3 Rift which kill me on game 3 (I was very close to win with an Slogger which dealt him 6 damage after decking half of my deck, but he played a “gain 6 life” to which my Chalice 1 and 2 couldn’t counter).
3rd and 4th place: Survival
On both games he got a 1st turn Therapy and an early Survival I couldn’t deal with.
My feelings on the deck were very good. I didn’t play against deck with manabases which could be affected by the Moon, but despite this I got quite good results (I finished 1st on the first round).
I felt Thinisphere was not as deffinitive as Chalice and Moon (in the only game the Moon effects were effective).
I deeply wished for some sort of removal. I didn’t have Powder Keg in the Sb, and I missed them so much to get rid of CoP, Rift, Survival.
I also missed some kind of “Final Blow” when my opponent was close to death.
So here are some thoughts after all I have read:
-What about reconsidering some direct damage? It seems quite a sacrilegy to run a red deck with no direct damage. I will consider testing Demonfire as it has been suggested in this thread before. But… in which slot?? Hasn’t ayone finally tested Pyromancy?
-@ Taco: Why have you removed Powder Keg even from your Sb? I have very few experience with this deck as you see, but in my only experience I missed removal so much I even thought about includding it in the maindeck. Okay, I guess your answer: this is an Aggro deck, but if someone gets to chast an Anti-aggro threat before you can cast the Chalice, you have lost…
-Trinisphere: I think it can be either the best or the worst card depending on your metagame and pairing, so maybe it could be taken out of the maindeck, but I think it is still worth a place on the Sb.
-Jitte vs SoFI: A difficult choice for me. Jitte is from far the best equipment in MTG. But it gets countered if you cast a Chalice for 2 and doesn’t make your creatures inmediatly big. SoFI is a lillte more expensive to cast and makes it more difficult to get hellbent, but who dislikes some card advantage?
- About the number of threats: Maybe on my next game I will try to add up to 23-24 of them (I will consider 2 Sulfur and 2 Akroma).
Semantics. Both archetypes try to live through the early game with permanent-based board control (Landstill = Deed, MUC = Propaganda, Keg, Stax = Ghostly Prison, Tangle Wire, 3Sphere), both gain card advantage (Stax is virtual card advantage through lots of 2-for-1s and 3-for-1s courtesy of Smokestack, while Landstill/MUC play raw draw spells), then both have a scant number of win conditions (MUC usually runs 2 max, Landstill 4-6, and Stax 4-8).
stax has no instants, stax doesnt play tangle wire (at least the geddon build).
stax has no board control (magus of the tab + armageddon if but than doesnt count) you need to sack stuff to smokestax allso so its not 2 for 1 + usually you only have 1 counter on stax, only if you have no other option.
i dont see any control in the deck whatsoever
test it, buy it, play it
Either way, let's definitely talk about it in the Dragon Stompy thread...
I've never seen him so upset....or ever before.
@The Stax discussion: Prison is Control. Just whereas Control answers everything reactively and wins on its own time, Prison answers everything proactively on its own time. And the entire discussion is irrelevant to this thread, anyway.
Congrats on your finish! Good report.
@Direct Damage: You do run Direct Damage. It's called Arc-Slogger. As for maindeck burn-style direct damage (assuming you're excluding things that don't hit players), it isn't worth it. You can't get enough of it to improve your board position effectively, and drawing it early is complete shit. If you have threats on the board, it's not hard to outrace your opponent with Dragon's insane pumping and evasion and Slogger's reach. And if you don't have threats on the board, you need more threats, not burn spells. If you do run them, however, Demonfire's your best bet, mainly because it's easy to get out of your hand in a pinch, and if you get a slow start you can do it for 1 to pick off a fast Lackey/Confidant/whatever.
@Powder Keg: Actually, it just gets rid of very little that I don't have a better answer to (The notable exception being ETW Tokens.) It can't touch an Enchantment, and most of the cards that really hurt me are enchantments. Tarmogoyf can be outraced if not killed outright, and most other low-cost creatures capitulate to Pyrokinesis. Manlands are better dealt with through Blood Moon, and most Artifacts I would want to get rid of can be dealt with faster and cheaper via Pithing Needle.
@Trinisphere: It shines in some matchups. No question. It also makes you die in games where it's subpar due to it not giving you choices as to what to imprint on your Mox. Or by being topdecked on turn 3, where it starts to suck against a lot of decks. However, it's still really solid against Threshold and Storm Combo. My current list is experimenting with another card in its place that improves Threshold/Landstill/MUC matches, but leaves my Storm Combo match sort of iffy. I'll post results/explanations if I decide it's worth it.
@Jitte vs. SOFI: The only valid reason to play SOFI is if you expect to play the mirror a lot, because SOFI wrecks the mirror. Otherwise, it sucks. It's more expensive than Jitte, can't gain you life, and blows on a Rakdos Pit Dragon as it often cuts off your Double Strike damage (SSG can dodge this neatly), whereas Jitte on a Hellbent Pit Dragon is very often an instant kill.
@Threats: I advise skipping Akroma. Sulfur Elemental and Taurean Mauler are better choices.
Advice on skipping akroma seconded, IF you don't live in a meta where every other player plays UW-landstill, and the rest plays something else that involves counterspells. I'm obviously exaggerating but seriously, prot. W&U and uncounterable - sign me in!
Still though, I think Sulfurs are good enough in these mu's and since they're better all around, I'm going to go with those next Saturday. I'll let you know if they do something impressive.
Wow.
First, there aren't any spell-type requirements in order for a deck to be considered control or not. Throughout the history of Magic, there have been control decks that have had anywhere from 0 Instants (43land) to 24 Instants (some MUC builds).
Second, there are Stax builds that run Geddon and Wire. Please reference Chris Copolla's most recent Stax article on starcitygames.com for lists he's compiled.
Third, I don't understand how Stax doesn't run board control cards. Ghostly Prison, Smokestack, Tangle Wire, Geddon + Magus, Crucible + Factory are all considered board control. Also, it should be noted that there is such a thing as PRO-ACTIVE disruption (3sphere, CotV) vs. REACTIVE disruption (counters, board sweepers, etc).
Finally, you need to re-examine your apparent "requirements" as to what constitutes a control deck. I claim it's a deck that survives the early-mid games using WHATEVER spell-types does the best job (Instants, Artifacts, Enchantments, Sorceries), gain card advantage (Raw Draw vs. Virtual Card Advantage, it doesn't really matter), then win using whatever you feel like(Morphling, Factories, Pegasus Tokens [pre-Mirrodin Parfait], recurring Barbarian Ring, etc).
EDIT: Back on topic, how often do you hold out and try to flip an Akroma, or just go all in and gas your hand, leaving little hope of flipping an Akroma? 100% dependant on game state or is Akroma just a beast when sh'e flipped?
It's game-state dependent. I don't usually go out of my way (IE, Hold back) to flip an Akroma unless it's guaranteed to win me the game when/if I flip it and I'm going to struggle to win the game otherwise. Generally you don't go out of your way to flip her, but if the opportunity presents itself and it's a good idea, you do it.
Most often if she ends up on the board face-up it's because of one of four things:
1. I Morphed her turn one with either a Song in hand or a Song topdecked, allowing me a turn two flip.
2. I caught her midgame where I had enough mana.
3. I built up and hardcasted her against a deck like MUC or Landstill.
4. Someone in the mirror match ran Boldwyr Heavyweights. This happened once. They dropped it turn one and I quickly showed them Akroma wins races. Theoretically this could also happen if someone casts Patriarch's Bidding or something similarly bizarre.
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