Holy shit there has been alot of posts since I was last on here, I'm not going through the hassle of setting up all the quote's versus answer's but I will try to address all the questions that have been raised.
First off I would like to give prop's to Darkalucard for picking up on all the simularities of playing this deck as to playing Landstill. To those that know me I have had more than alittle success in running Landstill, I had come to the conclusion however that Landstill is not a viable deck to expect to win a tournament with because there are way to many different type's of decks that you must be able to beat. On top of the very open format that Legacy has become the simple power level of the control cards being printed by wizards versus the power of the aggro cards printed has been extremely lopsided for a long time now. When Landstill was king it was hard just to build a deck that could beat Landstill let alone the entire format, now I could build 20 decks atleast that could crush Landstill without even metaegaming for Landstill. As one of the initial pioneers of Landstill in Legacy I am announcing that in my opinion the deck is dying/hibernating currently atleast until the print far more powerful control cards than what currently exist. With that being said if you were to play Standstill you would then still have to deal with all of the problems of running Standstill like Aether Vial means you just can't play the card and you would still have to wait until you had total control of the board before you could play a Standstill. Worse than that though you couldn't play it without already having a threat in play or you wouldn't be able to win since you have zero threats playable under Standstill. If you were looking to play that kind of aggro-control Standstill deck I suggest you check out either Skies or Armostill, as for Tombstone I don't believe Standstill has a place. If you try testing the deck I think you will see that casting the Harmonize's is not ever really an issue.
As to the Top versus Brainstorm issue, They both have there advantage's and disadvantage's. Whitch one is better is entirely a situational decision. I prefer Brainstorm personally. The capability of getting card quality and quantitty is more important to me than getting multiple uses focused only on card quality. Honestly whitchever suite's your playstyle best is what you will probably have the best success with.
Regarding Fact or Fiction, first off it keeps getting compared to Harmonize, this is incorrect, it should be compared to the function of Eternal Witness not Harmonize. Harmonize will always net you 3 cards, part of what makes those mid game Brainstorms so damn powerful are the extra land drawn off of early game Harmonize's. Fact give's you some decent card quality with a shot of getting some card quantity. Let's face the truth regarding Fact, if your opponent doesn't suck you will only be getting two cards or possibly even just one. If you are getting three cards you are either throwing the cards you want into the yard or your opponent is lame. Personally I tend to beat the opponents that would screw up separating a FOF already.
Regarding the Blue Mana in the deck, first off there are three actual lands that produce Blue not just the one Sea as someone mentioned. On top of that there are 4 Birds of Paradise that were already in the deck. I understand that I have a considerable amount of tournament experience running a ridiculous Mana base and that i'm used to wieghing out all of my choices regarding what to fetch for and when to do it, but do people realize that if you go Bayou + Birds of Paradise turn one that you have 100% of the colored Mana you need to cast everything in the entire deck including your Swamp to play Snuffout? To the player's that are having colored Mana issue's I would suggest just running Top and staying away from the Blue. To those of us with considerable control deck experience I don't believe you will have problems running the Blue Mana.
Playing this deck is much closer to Survival than it is The Rock, I built this deck based alot on Colin Chilbert's 4 color Survival deck and the Type 2 deck that won this past worlds event. I didn't like how Survival had so many dead cards in it if you didn't draw Survival. If there was a "mirror match" that you could face I believe Survival would be it. If you can stop them from getting Survival online you will destroy them almost every time, if not... you will get your ass kicked by the sheer card quality and quantity that the deck can generate. This along with some other reasons is why I believe the SB is in need of an overhaul. Both Pithing Needle and Meddling Mage would be incredibly powerful in this match as well as some other's.
Regarding the Survival match it depends alot on what version of Survival they are playing and what version of Tombstone you are playing.
Team Pandora
Team Disqualified Poster
I whole heartly believe that the Landstill that had dominated the format in the past... has become reborn as GWB Rock.
These decks will dominate the format.
Also check out this decks primer: We Do Not Sow (GB Loam)
Also [ATW] The Rock - Adapted to Legacy
I would love to refine GWB Rock into it's true calling. Tombstone is one of those decks taking a step in the right direction.
This deck is very promising.
Note:
I notice how you say it plays out like Surival more. I belive this is because Surival decks are basically Rock with a card advatnage engine in the card "Surival of the Fittest". The standard rock decks need something like this, this is in the form of Tops and Wish's, in your case Brainstorms and Harmonize. This is the direction Rock decks should take.
Since the Hadley tournament I've been doing a little testing with the Tombstone shell and have been having pretty decent results with the following list:
// Lands
2 [CHK] Plains (4)
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [MM] Swamp (2)
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [B] Taiga
1 [R] Savannah
1 [A] Badlands
1 [B] Bayou
4 [RAV] Forest (3)
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [4E] Birds of Paradise
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
2 [LRW] Doran, the Siege Tower
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
// Spells
2 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [PLC] Harmonize
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [LRW] Primal Command
SB: 1 [A] Regrowth
SB: 1 [A] Tsunami
SB: 1 [PLC] Rough/Tumble
SB: 1 [TO] Chainer's Edict
Team Hammafist
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
I love the Burning Wish idea! We have been messing around with both Glittering Wish and Living Wish but haven't done enough testing to actually play them yet. The Magus of the Moon seems alittle risky but I can totally see how it could just win games, How has it been working for you?
I'm glad people are playing the deck and having some success with it, I do believe this is the new direction with regards to playing control decks. It's also nice to see people understanding why this isn't a build of The Rock, that the deck is just considerably more explosive and has a better draw engine.
I've created a solid shell to start the deck with, I'm hoping the alternative idea's keep coming in. I am still looking for some solid side board strategy's if people care to post there idea's.
Team Pandora
Team Disqualified Poster
Magus of the Moon is actually quite good since the only basic you really need to function is a forest and maybe a swamp. Since you can fetch out basics and you have birds the Blood Moon effect really doesn't hurt you. As for Burning Wish, the card is simply too good. I don't think I've lost a game (unless I was mana screwed) where I saw multiple wishes.
Team Hammafist
I played in this past weekend's event, I am glad to say that both of the two Tombstone decks in the event made it to top 4. My match's went as such:
Round 1 vs Terravore/Countryside Crusher/Tarmogoyf/Force of Will
I win 2-0, still not sure what the hell he was trying to do with all those cards but my spot removal plus Doran made for 2 easy wins.
Round 2 vs Survival (Di)
I lose 1-2, I believe I both Sideboarded wrong and wasn't playing enough cards relevent to this match in the SB. I begin to think about my consistent losses to various Survival builds and some possible options in the SB. I have tryed to race Survival thinking that my men are just faster and that there are more of them plus my spot removal should clear the way but my opponents have been consistently stabalizing around 4-8 life. Perhaps with the right SB cards going the control route would be more effective.
Round 3 vs R/G Rifter
I win 2-0, Very easy match for this deck.
Round 4 vs Goblins (teeniebopper)
I win 2-1, I still have never lost to Goblins in an event but this match was damn close. My opponent was packing all sorts of disruption for Engineered Plague. Apparently they made a Black Goblin that pumps all your other Goblins +1/+1. That and he was running Shriekmaw and Engineered Explosive's, I actually had to play a Plague on Elementals or I would have died to a Shriekmaw.
Top 4 vs Tombstone (biggest legacy player alive)
This was probably the first ever sanctioned Tombstone mirror match. I utilzed my 7 months extra experience running the deck and claimed an easy 2-0 win. Congrats again to Brian for yet another top 4 with this deck.
Finals vs Survival (Di) again
Since I have almost zero testing against this deck and I have next to zero relevent disruption cards in the SB for his draw engine I decide to try the same theory of going aggro as before to see how it fairs, I lose 0-2. I don't believe this match is unwinnable by any means, I did claim one game against him and he actually lost to Brian in the swiss. This once again returns to my predicament over the appropriate SB. Had I been running the Needle's I had been considering, I would have had a far better chance of trying to go the control route aganst his deck.
I did try cutting one Witness from the MD in favor of the fourth Harmonize, I found that I had Harmonize in almost every single game, my card advantage was much smoother and more consistantly available. I believe I am going to continue running this change.
Team Pandora
Team Disqualified Poster
Your primary problem was not boarding in Krosan Grips. I was worried about them the entire time the first time around we played, and after I found out you didn't board them in the finals, I took advantage of it game 2 and played a lot more aggressively.Since I have almost zero testing against this deck and I have next to zero relevent disruption cards in the SB for his draw engine I decide to try the same theory of going aggro as before to see how it fairs, I lose 0-2. I don't believe this match is unwinnable by any means, I did claim one game against him and he actually lost to Brian in the swiss. This once again returns to my predicament over the appropriate SB. Had I been running the Needle's I had been considering, I would have had a far better chance of trying to go the control route aganst his deck.
I did try cutting one Witness from the MD in favor of the fourth Harmonize, I found that I had Harmonize in almost every single game, my card advantage was much smoother and more consistantly available. I believe I am going to continue running this change.
Another issue for the matchup, as you mention, is your attempt to play the aggro deck against me. Misassignment of role = game loss. That's a universal rule. Remember, I will always be the aggro deck in this scenario. I play more the double the amount of creatures you do. In order to win the matchup, you need to be the control deck and reconfigure the decklist/sideboard to suit that if you want to win, because the primary reason you lost that is because you took an aggro perspective into the match and went aggro v. aggro against a much better aggro deck. Still, despite that, it was all in Krosan Grip. Board them in next time!
I really like the deck though. It's a lot cooler than I thought it was when I first saw it posted on here.
I think it should be mentioned that Di has made a deal with the devil to beat everyone on Team Left Field as long as he is playing a survival deck.
Major Deck Projects
Deck 2012: Angel Walk
Deck 2009: Tombstone
Deck 2007: Exploration Crucible:
Deck 2005:Bob the Belcher:
Geoff if possible could you post a current Tombstone deck list with possible SB cards. I realize I could piece something together from all the previous posts, but that would take a minute or twenty. This deck looks extremely promising, right now I have Next Level Blue for extended, hate fairies so I don't really play much type two, and was considering making something Legacy just because I can (although NO ONE plays Legacy in Tampa Bay area).
J Smelski
I admitted the error in my strategy, like I said with little actual testing and then to play against the best Survival player I have ever met, I didn't expect to win. I decided I was going to use you for some testing, you may have more creature's but they are all smaller. My theory was this, if you don't draw Survival and I go aggro you are screwed, that was how I took the one win from you that I did. To be fair you managed to draw Survival every single one of our games despite the heavy discard I threw at you. I will admit I did not expect to have to deal with Gilded Drake either and that my SB strategy will be much different the next time we meet.
@Jason it's the most recent list posted by me with one change
-1 Witness
+1 Harmonize
I don't have a certain SB, in fact I have asked other's to post thiers a number of times now.
Team Pandora
Team Disqualified Poster
I made top four once again with the deck this week. Literaly every round was a deck I didn't want to face but with some different Side Boarding strategies the day went well for me.
Round 1 vs Survival
Holy shit if I'm not playing against Di my turn one Thoughtsieze on Survival can actually do something. My opponent failing to top deck additional Survivals when needed and my new SB cards actually made this an easy match. I win 2-0
Round 2 vs Plainswalker+Shackles+Deed/Control-spiderfreak
He has way too many cards that I can't get rid off with only the 2 C+P's in the MD I scoop game 1 to Shackle's plus Lilliana. I SB and take an easy win through game's 2 and 3. I win 2-1
Round 3 vs Survival
Well round one wasn't just luck I take a 2-0 win against another Survival deck.
Round 4 vs Belcher-Legend
Game one he kills me with ETW before I can find a C+P. Games 2 and 3 I am able to force him to discard Belcher's and I had something to kill ETW when needed.
Top 4 vs White Thresh
Game 1 is bad, Damn Shackles are a pain in the ass. I SB heavily for this match but I end up dying to the third Mystic Enforcer, seriously I think he played one turns 7,8 and 9. I stp'd the first 2 but I wasn't able to stop the third one. I lose 0-2.
I seem to be sideboarding the same cards every round, I may try switching some stuff around to see if I can't improve some game 1's.
Team Pandora
Team Disqualified Poster
Can you post your list?
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun." --Ash
This is Geoff's list for those of you to lazy to scroll
Black
4x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Snuff Out
3x Tombstalker
Green
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Eternal Witness
4x Harmonize
White
4x Swords to Plowshares
Blue
4x Brainstorm
Gold
3x Doran
2x Crime/Punishment
Land
5x Basics
7x Fetch Lands
9x Dual Lands
Major Deck Projects
Deck 2012: Angel Walk
Deck 2009: Tombstone
Deck 2007: Exploration Crucible:
Deck 2005:Bob the Belcher:
Just FYI, the list you posted doesn't match the list above.
+ Brainstorm
- Magus of the Moon
- Burning Wish
further more, JanValentine00 posted it not konsultant.
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun." --Ash
The Burning wish list is an alternative list suggested by JanValentine00. The list posted by Raider Bob is the list I created and am currently running. Any changes I post will be in reference to this list.
Main Deck
Discard
4x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
Removal
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Snuff Out
2x Crime / Punishment
Creatures
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Eternal Witness
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Doran
3x Tombstalker
Draw
4x Brainstorm
4x Harmonize
Lands
4x Windswept Heath
3x Polluted Delta
4x Bayou
1x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Tropical Island
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
2x Swamp
2x Forest
1x Plains
Side Board
4x Engineered Plague
3x Krosan Grip
3x Engineered Explosive's
The other 5 slots are what I've had trouble deciding what to play. Some form of Graveyard removal seems needed along with something to deal with Belcher/Tendrils. Almost everything else is dealt with very well between the MD and those 10 SB cards.
Team Pandora
Team Disqualified Poster
Regarding the sideboard, I'd cut EE down to 2 and run a 3/3 split between Extirpate and Orim's Chant. You have solid game against Ichorid postboard (3 Extirpate, 3 Engineered Plague), and combo (3 Orim's Chant + maindeck discard).
The 3x EE are extremely important. There are only the 2x Crime and Punishment in the MD to deal with artifacts or enchaments after they resolve. Both Shackles and Counterbalance can be problems for this deck. You do have the 3x Krosan Grip in the SB as well but if you run into something like White Stax or Enchantress you need to have an excessive amount of Artifact/Enchantment removal. Not to mention EE is my best way to deal with the Bloodmoon effects that have become so popular. Chalice control decks can create a problem as well. The EE are just to useful to cut, I'd be more likely to add the 4th than to cut one. The Orim's Chant idea for combo has merrit. I think Raider Bob is actually running them in his SB. No one here really runs Ichorid but I have tested against it some. The match is greatly in the favor of Tombstone. Doran does funny things to Ichorids and Ashen Ghouls.
Team Pandora
Team Disqualified Poster
Is EE an effective way of dealing with Moons, given that the very reason they hurt is they cut you off from mana of colors you want? If you can make three different colors to blow one up, do you really need to? Honest question.
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
I can definitely see how Moon effects can be harmful. Two basics + a nonbasic gives you 3 charge counters on Engineered Explosives, and that's easy to come by. The problem is that the deck needs double black (Tombstalker) and double green (Witness and Harmonize), and getting rid of a Moon (even when you can get EE to 3 counters) will open up your game a lot.
However, it does seem like between discard and Krosan Grip coming from the board, it really doesn't seem like EE is truly suited for taking out Moons. I stand by my sideboard choices, but konsultant probably knows the deck better than me.
Blood Moon is much more difficult to deal with than Magus of the moon.
3x Snuff outs is Free Removeal, and the 4x Swords make Magus ez to deal with(If you do not walk into it that is) Blood Moon on the other hand is difficult for the deck to deal with with only 2 C/P and the 3 EE in the board.
Major Deck Projects
Deck 2012: Angel Walk
Deck 2009: Tombstone
Deck 2007: Exploration Crucible:
Deck 2005:Bob the Belcher:
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