[Article] Unlocking Legacy - Death Cloud

[Zach Tartell]

Link

Pernicious Deed. Damnation. Garruk Wildspeaker. Death Cloud. While writers argue about whether to run powerful cards or cards that synergize, Kevin Binswanger invites you to do both.

Am I the only one who reads Star City?

[Nightmare]

No, you are the only one who reads his bad articles.

Let's see you fucking create something, naysayer.

/sick of article bashing.

[Phantom]

I completely agree that more needs to be said about the Rock in Legacy, and I appreciate Kevin writing an article about it.

With that said, this list does NOT look like the list to talk about, and I find the matchup analysis suspicious. It makes little to no mention of decks that look like they slaughter it (Storm Combo, Goblins, Landstill) and makes some just plain strange statements about the decks mentioned. For example:

You are way ahead against Life from the Loam decks. Devastating Dreams is really bad for you (it can wreck your lands and kill Garruk), but most decks do not run it, and you have plenty of time to remove it with Thoughtseize. Most of the time these decks are slow enough that you play as a Death Cloud combo deck. They are counting on keeping their board full and spending all their mana on Life from the Loam. If you Death Cloud away all their lands, they will not be able to find enough to recast Life from the Loam.

I find the concept that A) Aggro Loam doesn't usually run Devastating Dreams, and B) it can't recover from a huge Death Cloud laughable. I mean, it's not like they run 4 Mox Diamonds and a bazillion lands...


or this:

Survival of the Fittest can be easy like Loam decks, or it can be a pain. You almost always get a chance to remove Survival of the Fittest with Thoughtseize

The deck runs 4 Thoughseize, and Survival decks run 4 Survivals. That right there seems like a 50/50 shot that you're napping it with discard. Then you have to factor in the fact that the Survival deck itself is running discard (usually more than you) and you see the chances of nabbing a SotF before it lands are smallish.

Anyway, i do appreciate the writing, I just wish I could buy into more of it.

[YuanTi]

Against an opponent with Death Cloud, I will generally fire Death Cloud if I will be better off afterwards than them.

Did he work that out for himself?

He seems to massively exaggurate his matchups. Loam stomps Death Cloud in Extended, why is it different here? Death Cloud away their lands and they'll recover and drop a Vore/Goyf/Crusher far faster than you.

Survival, as mentioned is likely enough to take your Thoughtseize with one of their own, and once down, they're not going to have trouble finding threats/mana creatures to recover from a cloud.

The Thresh match I'm not sure about, but he seems to forget they run counters.

He also hasn't mentioned a single bad matchup, or SB plan for them, while he has posted SB plans for good matchups, which is a lot less relevant.

I do like GBx decks, and think this deck has potential, but I'm very speculative about his matchup claims, and thus about the testing he has done on this deck.

[Bardo]

Folks, if you have nothing kind to say, at least say something constructive. Vague unsubstantiated bashings will get you a verbal warning for breaking Forum Rule #2.

[Whit3 Ghost]

A serious question for Anusien, what makes this deck better then Train Wreck?

[Anusien]

I don't think you all understand; you don't lose post-Death Cloud. Your losses on that front are going to come from not being able to make a few land drops in time. If you have Clouded away their entire board and hand and have anything left, you are going to win. Without a doubt, 100%. The biggest risk from Survival is that they find a land and start bringing back Birds of Paradise to make land drops and you have to remove the board. But they get a Birds every other turn and you get a 3/3 every other turn.


I mention storm combo, but it's fairly short. I felt like most people understood what just 4 Thoughtseize doesn't do to combo, and that I'm bringing in 4 Duress for sure. Your sideboard plan depends there on how much you want to sideboard to beat it, but at a start you're cutting the spot removal and Damnations for Duress and Extirpate.

The primary forms of Loam in Legacy are not RGB Loam with multiple Cabal Therapies and Devastating Dreams. Those are worse for you because they can wipe you out with Therapy and recover faster. The majority of builds that get talked about or run are UGx Loam builds with Intuition; they tend not to run Devastating Dreams. These builds are much better for you; they run fewer good cards. You have Putrefy and Deed for their Moxen, as well as Garruk to recover faster. It's almost as if the last high profile Loam deck to do well at a tournament (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9078) ran Intuition, Force of Will, Life from the Loam, no Mox Diamonds. That deck basically only have Vedalken Shackles against you.

For those of you that haven't actually tested the matchup, Life from the Loam tends to accumulate a lot of lands. Through dredging and fetching, they tend to take a land out of their library a turn. Once you Death Cloud, 2/3 of the lands are gone from their library, which makes it extremely difficult for them to recover.

Yeah, sometimes Survival has the turn 1 Thoughtseize, turn 2 Survival on the play draw. And that's why I say Survival is worse for you than Loam. You're more likely to be on the play with turn 1 Thoughtseize than they are to have that opening. The biggest problem is that they can topdeck Survival, which is why I bring in Extirpates, or that they can fetch Witness with Survival (which almost counters a Deed). Your biggest advantage is that they only run 1 Witness, or that they tend to commit to the board. Damnation is quite good against them too. The biggest thing isn't their discard, but that they make 4/4s faster than you. You either have to keep Survival off the table or win with Death Cloud.

Guys, seriously? "he seems to forget they run counters."? Let's assume I'm smart enough to cast the Force of Will in my hand. Counters are not the be-all end-all of Magic, or we'd still be playing BBS. Their counters are barely relevant, because you have so many business spells. You want them to counter your creatures, because it means your Garruks, Deeds and Damnations are resolving. The problem is when they StP your Baloth and Force your Garruk, which is why UGR is much less a problem

[Anusien]

A serious question for Anusien, what makes this deck better then Train Wreck?

Death Cloud and Garruk. Train Wreck is a control deck, and this is a midrange deck with a much better long game. Death Cloud does everything Haunting Echoes does, but more too. It's basically a Haunting Echoes that saves you on-board.
Plus with acceleration and things like Baloth, this is much better against aggressive decks too. You sacrifice some combo and Threshold matchup game 1 to be more even against the field.

[Waikiki]

I've been toying with deathcloud aswell for almost half a year. With great succes and some weakness aswell. It's a totally different approach but works great for me. I'd like to start a thread about it after I run it at some tourneys next month.

[Nihil Credo]

The primary forms of Loam in Legacy are not RGB Loam with multiple Cabal Therapies and Devastating Dreams. Those are worse for you because they can wipe you out with Therapy and recover faster. The majority of builds that get talked about or run are UGx Loam builds with Intuition; they tend not to run Devastating Dreams.

You don't know what you're talking about and you're making up stuff from pure imagination or possibly mind-altering substances.

The majority of Loam decks making Top 8 around the world are RGB versions; another substantial minority are the Chalice Loam builds which, I admit, I take some shallow pride in having developed and promoted.

Seriously, check for yourself. (There's also a Loam Control category, which is mostly abandoned and mostly RGB or RGW as well.)

By contrast, just try searching for decks with both Intuition and Life from the Loam in the maindecks. Be underwhelmed.

Incidentally:

For those of you that haven't actually tested the matchup, Life from the Loam tends to accumulate a lot of lands. Through dredging and fetching, they tend to take a land out of their library a turn. Once you Death Cloud, 2/3 of the lands are gone from their library, which makes it extremely difficult for them to recover.

/facepalm

Dredging does not affect the ratio of cards left in their library, and therefore their chances of drawing more lands post-Cloud. Fetching does, but it takes a while for it to become relevant, certainly less than they need to resolve Devastating Dreams or Seismic Assault.

All they need to draw are (2-X) lands, where X is the number of Mox Diamonds they have in play. After that they'll just get back all their stuff from the graveyard.

Without Extirpate or a discard+Wretch combo, your chances of winning this matchup are very, very low.

I like your take on Death Cloud, still.

[YuanTi]

For those of you that haven't actually tested the matchup, Life from the Loam tends to accumulate a lot of lands. Through dredging and fetching, they tend to take a land out of their library a turn. Once you Death Cloud, 2/3 of the lands are gone from their library, which makes it extremely difficult for them to recover.

But since they've gotten so many, they have more left on the table than you too.

Death Cloud costs XBBB, so you'll have to have 2 or 3 lands left after you drop it. Where you may have missed Land drops, Loam, most likely, won't have. So they'll probably have more lands than you, and still be able to recover other lands using LftL.

[Whit3 Ghost]

I mention storm combo, but it's fairly short. I felt like most people understood what just 4 Thoughtseize doesn't do to combo, and that I'm bringing in 4 Duress for sure. Your sideboard plan depends there on how much you want to sideboard to beat it, but at a start you're cutting the spot removal and Damnations for Duress and Extirpate.

The primary forms of Loam in Legacy are not RGB Loam with multiple Cabal Therapies and Devastating Dreams. Those are worse for you because they can wipe you out with Therapy and recover faster. The majority of builds that get talked about or run are UGx Loam builds with Intuition; they tend not to run Devastating Dreams. These builds are much better for you; they run fewer good cards. You have Putrefy and Deed for their Moxen, as well as Garruk to recover faster. It's almost as if the last high profile Loam deck to do well at a tournament (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9078) ran Intuition, Force of Will, Life from the Loam, no Mox Diamonds. That deck basically only have Vedalken Shackles against you.

For those of you that haven't actually tested the matchup, Life from the Loam tends to accumulate a lot of lands. Through dredging and fetching, they tend to take a land out of their library a turn. Once you Death Cloud, 2/3 of the lands are gone from their library, which makes it extremely difficult for them to recover.

Guys, seriously? "he seems to forget they run counters."? Let's assume I'm smart enough to cast the Force of Will in my hand. Counters are not the be-all end-all of Magic, or we'd still be playing BBS. Their counters are barely relevant, because you have so many business spells. You want them to counter your creatures, because it means your Garruks, Deeds and Damnations are resolving. The problem is when they StP your Baloth and Force your Garruk, which is why UGR is much less a problem

• You said that your combo matchup is worse then that of Trainwreck. This means that you have under a 10% chance of winning game one, and virtually all your hate loses to Orim's Chant.
• You completely ignore the Agro Loam list that top4ed the same tournament and beat the deck you used as an example.
• Yes, your deck has a lot of bombs, but it seems that it will have a lot of trouble actually casting any of them when your manabase is being, either by Moon Effects or by Stifle/Waste and you're under pressure from Goyf and company. Also, your lack of a draw engine severely damages your Threshold matchup as you pretty much give them turns 1-3 to set up without putting any pressure on them except for 4 Thoughtseize.
• Your Goblins matchup seems awful due to the same reason, barring a T1 Thoughtsieze, followed up by multiple Goyfs and or Deeds and no way to answer Lackey turn one.

So basically, you lose to Combo, Goblins and 40/60 Thresh?

[Brehn]

The primary forms of Loam in Legacy are not RGB Loam with multiple Cabal Therapies and Devastating Dreams. Those are worse for you because they can wipe you out with Therapy and recover faster. The majority of builds that get talked about or run are UGx Loam builds with Intuition; they tend not to run Devastating Dreams.

Okay, I don't like senseless article bashing or personal flames. But seriously, that's like saying "The majority of Threshold builds are 5-color and run 4 City of Brass". In the last few months there was exactly one relevant tournament where an UGx Loam made Top 8, in the very same tournament two 5C Thresh made Top 8. Just to prove your ignorance:

Torneo de los Jamones
February 24, 2008
40 Players

1. RGb Aggro Loam

Iserlohn
March 2, 2008
69 Players

1. RGb Aggro Loam

Hassloch
March 16, 2008
37 participants

1. GBR Aggro Loam

Magic Corporation Legacy
March 29, 2008
43 Players

1. RGb Aggro Loam

Tell me which world you're living in. Sorry, but I won't read your article. This reminds me too much of your Scepter-Chant article. Yeah, that one with the Pristine Angels in it.

[Bovinious]

To me this looks like taking a tier 2 Extended deck and replacing the Overgrown Tombs with Bayous. I really dont get how this is good at all but maybe thats just me...

[Osse]

First. Namedrop! Mize.
Second. It wasn't that I got discouraged, I just got busy. And I felt the deck as a whole was a little underwhelming, but you've obviously put more work into it than I have. Death Cloud + Garruk is good times, definitely.
Third. Why is everyone bashing this? I'm not going to say I haven't been critical of Kevin's work before, but none of my criticism was depth-less bashing. Seriously, if you have nothing good to say, just don't say anything.

I AM going to agree with people on the Loam and Survival matchups as I've played both decks. I don't think Survival has a 'recognized' build so saying it has 1 Witness isn't necessarily fair. Also, everytime I see an Aggro-Loam shell, it seems SO underwhelming compared to other mid-range decks. Like, my Survival deck is just so much more efficient at handling the format. That's something for another time though.

I'm fairly certain that this deck is supposed to beat Threshold. This decks plays like Landstill with a better kill. Who knew! Seriously, wiping Threshold's board, and hitting them with Beasts is nearly impossible for Threshold to recover from.

I'm curious as to ways to solve the Goblins matchups. Life-Gain and Plague seems to pull the matchup towards even, instead of a disaster. Hmm.

About the Shadowmoor stuff, I think it's too early to tell. Whenever a new set comes out I tend to disregard it until the full spoiler is out, and until I'm comfortable with the CURRENT build to start changing things. Shusher is definitely a bomb though, test it.

[mujadaddy]

Am I the only one who reads Star City?

Until someone posts an article here, I don't bother determining what is & isn't behind the Paywall.

Personally, I think Death Cloud is a stupid card. It costs FOUR mana () to do the same thing that Smallpox does for TWO (). The way my Pox deck runs, I don't want to pay more mana than I have to for ANYTHING, much less symmetric sacrifice. /end Death_Cloud_Rant

I haven't tested the decklists provided in the article, but I'm not impressed.

*more later*

[Isamaru]

Why would you play Mutavault over Mishra's Factory? The only reason I can see would be against Warren Weirding...

You probably should have discussed Cabal Therapy, even if you didn't include it.

[Osse]

Why would you play Mutavault over Mishra's Factory? The only reason I can see would be against Warren Weirding...

You probably should have discussed Cabal Therapy, even if you didn't include it, considering it goes well with the rest of the deck...

Mutavault sacs to Baloth! But seriously. Vault is just a better Factory here. The hitting for more than 2 doesn't really matter here to be honest.

Find space for Therapy and there'll be discussion. Just cause it fits the decks strategy, doesn't mean it goes in.

Idea Time! Was there any thought towards Burning Wish? I mean, I know I hate (Burning) Wishes in general, but the fact that you can search up stuff like a 4th Cloud, or another Damnation, or Chainer's, or whatever seems like something that should be considered. I realize it's tight, and makes your manabase somewhat worse, but it's a thought.

[Nihil Credo]

Mutavault sacs to Baloth! But seriously. Vault is just a better Factory here. The hitting for more than 2 doesn't really matter here to be honest.

Killing Mongoose, surviving bears and Goblins >>>> 2 life off of Baloth.

[Bardo]

Yeah, being a 3/3 on defense trumps all peripheral benefits of Mutavault. (Factory is also like $20 cheaper, not really a factor in the discussion, but still.)