Stifle isn't just for Wasteland/Storm. Stifle also helps against Goblin Lackey, Goblin Matron, Goblin Ringleader, Eternal Witness recursion triggers, Sterling Grove, Smokestack, Decree of Justice, opposing Pernicious Deeds, Engineered Explosives, etc. There's something in every deck ever for Stifle to hit to a degree.
Plus, it's crucial to point out how absolutely steamrolled you get by Wasteland without it.
You might not need it if you're packing quad (!) Sacred Ground in sideboard, though. Any reason for that? I have to say that if you're not running Meddling Mage in the sideboard you might as well not be running white. Mage is probably the single strongest sideboard card the deck has if used properly, and everything Ground stops can be stopped by something else.
EDIT: Also, everyone who complains about Jace in Taco-style 4C tends to be running insufficient threat removal. Just saying.
Originally Posted by majikal
I suppose that Loam > Crucible if you arn't running wastes, I'll give you that.
How many loams should be run, just one as a single bullet?
I wonder if it would be a good idea to run extirpates in place of stifles? Extirpate is quite useful against a variety of decks, just like stifle. The only downside is its not blue, and with stifle becoming a non-blue card I'm running dangerously low on blue.
As for Jace, every single time I've dropped him he's been a house. Fact of fiction basically says pay 4, get 2 or 1 cards you want or 3-4 cards you probably don't as much. I like the card, but Jace seems so much better here. Also, Jace is another win condition if necessary. Did I mention the card looks really cool? :)
Edit:
"Stifle isn't just for Wasteland/Storm. Stifle also helps against Goblin Lackey, Goblin Matron, Goblin Ringleader, Eternal Witness recursion triggers, Sterling Grove, Smokestack, Decree of Justice, opposing Pernicious Deeds, Engineered Explosives, etc. There's something in every deck ever for Stifle to hit to a degree.
Plus, it's crucial to point out how absolutely steamrolled you get by Wasteland without it.
You might not need it if you're packing quad (!) Sacred Ground in sideboard, though. Any reason for that? I have to say that if you're not running Meddling Mage in the sideboard you might as well not be running white. Mage is probably the single strongest sideboard card the deck has if used properly, and everything Ground stops can be stopped by something else."
Yeah, I was thinking about cutting down the sacred grounds to 3 and making room for Mage in the SB. As I said, combo isn't very prevelent in my meta, so I don't know how much use they would be. Sacred ground is there for Crucible/wasteland lock as well as White Stax.
Seems like stifle is the way to go, but I'd still like to see an opinion on extirpates main/Jace :)
I'd like to get Tacosnape's opinion on these issues too, as his list is similar to mine.
Two if you're dealing with a lot of Stax/Pox/Wasteland heavy decks. Otherwise just one will suffice.
I currently run a 3/1 Stifle/Extirpate split. I'm tinkering with a 2/2 split, and there's no way I'd ever go lower than this. Extirpate absolutely sucks in more matches than Stifle does, and in a match where both suck, Stifle's better, because Extirpate won't pitch to a Force. Play two and two if you feel too Stifle-heavy. I still like 3-1 for the time being.I wonder if it would be a good idea to run extirpates in place of stifles? Extirpate is quite useful against a variety of decks, just like stifle. The only downside is its not blue, and with stifle becoming a non-blue card I'm running dangerously low on blue.
Jace's strength is what he does unchecked: He wins. You'll almost never have to use his kill, because the card advantage he'll generate you if he lives long enough to go Draw/Draw/Both Draw/Draw (Or, alternately, Draw/Draw/Draw-die-PlayJace#2-Draw), will steamroll into a very bad situation for your opponent.As for Jace, every single time I've dropped him he's been a house. Fact of fiction basically says pay 4, get 2 or 1 cards you want or 3-4 cards you probably don't as much. I like the card, but Jace seems so much better here. Also, Jace is another win condition if necessary. Did I mention the card looks really cool? :)
At the absolute worst, he cantrips and prevents 2 or more damage to you. Not a great effect for 1UU, but just think of it as a slightly pricier but on color Renewed Faith. With the potential to win you the game if the opponent can't stop it.
EDIT: Also, Meddling Mage is fantastic against White Stax, just for the record.
Alrighty, so I think what I'll do is replace my 2 crucibles with 1 loam and 1 other card. Either 1 extirpate or perhaps a 4th stifle. Or I might go 2/2 as you suggested. Thanks for the help.
I think it's important to note that more then 2 crucible "type" effects in a game is usually not great inless your running the 1-1 split and then it gets great.
In Der's list dredging some mishra's and then playing them via crucible can be back breaking, then at eot just discarding the LFTL and repeating until you have complete land control. If they blow them up get them back, just never miss your land drops and you should be good.
Another important note:
The deck is called LAND-Still. and its worded that way for a reason. If your never not in Complete control of a game or your tipping back and fourth then its either -1- you missed a removal or counterable target "nimble mongoose" or you missed land drops to help you maintain that advantage.
Keep in mind this archtype thrives on being the best till you hit card 0 in your library. You should be able to run your opponent out of gas, and then make your win look easy. It's getting to that point that can be alittle difficult.
Im not sure if this is a mistake or not, but I often will not activate mishra's unless I absolutely have to in blocking situations, especially against anything splashing white. "plowshares" Also if I have a game locked down and I have mishra's in play I will wait till I see decree or eternal dragon to start swinging. To me Mishra's are the best overall win condition but its the first thing your opponent goes after, so by forcing them to play their tricks on your other threats it makes mishra's inevitable and basicly they just end up slow rolling your opponent if they run out of gas or are tapped out or have nothing relevant going on.
The other thing is if you time it right you can end rounds on the 1-0 win. Just dont slow play because you'll get nabbed for that instantly, pace yourself and maintain your goal.
I run Taco's list pretty much card for card (it just seems so much more solid than that 4c cunning mana screw myself deck) and the stifles also seem underwhelming at times i've considered just running more extirpates main seeing as they deal with a ton of problematic cards and are also very rarely dead.
The manabase of 4c Cunning Landstill is actually way more solid and stable than you give it credit for. You have 7 fetchlands and 1 Eternal Dragon to have easy access to your splashes and, more importantly, your splashes are only very limited ones: you still are basically only UW Landstill with a black splash for 4 mainboard cards and a green splash for 5 mainboard cards. The splashes are also not very color-intensive so that one dual/source of the splash suffices to assure being able to cast anything. On top of that, you also have Crucible of Worlds and Life from the Loam to fix any issues with the manabase you might possible encounter.
If you compare the following manabase to the pretty stable 3c Cunning Landstill manabase:
// Lands (25)
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Tolaria West
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
Sources: 9
Sources: 7
Sources: 3
Sources: 2
// Lands (24)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Plains
2 Island
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
You are basically trading an Island for a Tropical Island and a Plains for a Savannah which makes you only more un-stable against Blood Moon (same color-distribution concerning your two main colors Blue and White) whille adding in more stability by adding in another fetchland.
If you now compare this to Tacosnape's manabase which looks something like this:
// Lands (24)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
You basically only have two green source less (same amount of fetches due to Eternal Dragon) - but this is compensated by running less cards in the splash (in those kind of manabases, stuff like Garruk or Tarmogoyf are an additional strain on your colors, the former because of the doulbed cost and the later because you want to play it early - in 4c Cunning Landstill you only need green for Pernicious Deed, Life from the Loam and... nothing else - same is true for the black splash [Diabolic Edict isn't run in 4c Cunning Landstill giving you more color stability because you only need to go for your two splashes when you want a Deed]), a land more and CoW/LftL - also, the Cunning Landstill manabase has 2 basics implemented into it which could easily be switched to more duals if Blood Moon/Back to Basics are absolutely no concern in your meta.
You also play two Blue Sources less - but you still have the same amount of Blue sources as in UWb Cunning Landstill which is completely enough (the deck is more White-centric than normal versions and doesn't need double Blue that desperately because it can handle stuff otherwise much more efficiently).
For sure the Cunning Landstill list is more white intensive due to Humility but you're also playing way more white sources than this list (7 > 4) - as many as a strictly UWb List.
I'm not saying that the manabase is better than Taco's, this would be not true, especially since Taco plays Stifle, but the manabase is way better than you give it credit for and than many people think - it is just as consistent as a 3c Manabase which already rarely has problems, with regards to reaching white mana, and very close to as consistent as an 'American' Manabase with regards to reaching black and green, you just have to play a little tighter sometimes, leaving fetchlands uncracked as long as possible and not going for excess colored sources (for instance, I rarely go for Blue Duals when I've already got two out although this is the default play in most other Landstill versions).
I strongly disaprove of this: you don't want stuff that is card-disadvantage nine times out of ten in a deck that wins based on card advantage. Also, Extirpates are pretty often dead draws as they're not influencing the current board state. If you want access to Extirpates preboard, just play Cunning Wish which is never dead due to being more flexible and sometimes even game-breaking (fetching Pulse of the Fields or Enlightened Tutor for Humility).
Team SPOD - ...land of the brave...
Just for the record, my manabase doesn't, hasn't, and never will include Academy Ruins, nor have I ever or will ever run the card in Landstill. I don't even run an artifact in my entire 75.
Any manabase reference to me, while this doesn't necessarily make my deck more consistent, looks like this:
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monestary
That's the same manabase I've been running for the last year. It's never changed short of the occasional foray with a 7th fetchland in place of a Tropical, until I remember I don't like dying to Stifle, upon which it resets to normal.
So the correct numbers for me would be 10/4/4/4, or 18/10/10/10 if you factor in the fetchlands and are counting ways to hit the source rather than the actual source itself.
I understand where your comming from tacosnape, and it probobly makes sense. Ruins for me is personal preferance.
I like the ability to stop people from countering a relavent crucible over and over "as they know I will have the ability to drop it the next turn ANYWAYS."
I also like the mishra explosion technique where your opponent plays a threat, you cast ee. sac and attack. Then ruins it back to your hand if they play another threat. Its a very usefull little combo and it works especially well against decks like mono black disruption mid-late game as they basicly dont have any card advantage on you. So having and endless removal "MACHINE!!!!" is pretty cool, and not a way to win.
I'm currently testing der's new build. Although I like having a fourth deed in the md, I do not like not having spell snares. This is really sort of a bad position to be in.
If you like utilizing crucible over and over again and are running green, you should just use life from the loam. :)
The best thing about academy ruins is the EE/ruins combo, as you said. I just don't think that 4 color landstill can afford to run the 7th colourless source. I'm already tight for colour in the early game; I cant afford to not be able to play early counterspells.
Taco - any reason you run Diabolic Edict over EE? Running 4x Deed and 3x EE has been a jesus-send for me. I almost always have answers to pertinent threats.
-LFTL comment. It's a 1-1 split between crucible and LFTL.
-It's not a seventh colorless source, it's a 6th. The seventh source is tolaria west, which is actually a spell slot, "props to der and wasteland for finally showing how to fit it in, and wow omg it works well."
Your problem is your thinking too hard. As der said all the heavy white splash landstill's are early game u/w control decks, sometimes u/w/b. But never u/w/g/b. It doesnt work if you play it like that. In fact I cant remember the last time I layed a t3 deed. I probobly lost though I can tell you that much. Inless your already in hand having the colors and the deed and theres nothing you can do about it, AND you have 0 counters, theres really no reason to extended yourself out that far.
Just go like this
Tundra
Underground sea
Tundra
Tropical island
Simple. If you have mishra's and need it early replace tropical island wish mishra's. This is not overly difficult stuff.
Also ive been noticing alot of disruption decks right now in my metagame. Alot of black x discard, do these meta's shift like standard where its kind of flavor of the week stuff?
Tolaria West seems like an interesting card to run in a spell slot. I might give that a try. It sounds like you only run 1 Nantuko Monestary now that you can fetch it with West. That makes sense I suppose. The rest of your comments didn't make a lot of sense. Of course I know that most of the time you don't play deeds on turn 3. I'm just saying that the more colorless sources you run, the greater chance of you being unable to cast early game UU spells like Counterspell/Jace.
In terms of metagame shifts, I think that each metagame is different. My meta doesn't have a lot of black x discard, but it could be possible that people are shifting towards those kind of decks, as they generally have a strong matchup against Thresh.
I run der's list now. Im currently testing the configuration he's got. For referance.
// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UNH] Island
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [B] Savannah
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [IA] Counterspell
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [TE] Humility
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [RAV] Seed Spark
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
The tolaria west is in there to grab
1 of tutor wasteland
academy ruins
mishra's factory under a standstill softlock.
Engineered explosives for a bit oh mass removal.
I always have been a big fan of Der's 4c landstill list.
Cunning wish just makes 4c landstill run more smoother and more efficiently in my opinion. Another thing I like about tolaria west is that it can indirectly stabalize your manabase better in terms of colors.(example: you won't have to run as many colorless lands particularly wasteland with Tolaria west)
I also like Der's list because you don't really need to change it really from metagame to metagame since the deck is already as flexible as is generally speaking anyway.
Der Imaginure Freund is one of those masterminds when it comes to building landstill for legacy. At least in my opinion.
Last edited by Mister Agent; 04-16-2008 at 01:52 AM.
Team Hammafist!
I become more of a believer every time I test his ideas.
"I also like Der's list because you don't really need to change it really from metagame to metagame since the deck is already as flexible as is generally speaking anyway"
I disagree alittle bit, but its only because the deck has a really difficult time with random burn/ hater decks. this model is rediculously good though. I can tell you i've personally never been unhappy with any of the changes, and the fact that he moved up in the land count made me happy. The less consistently I get mana screwed the more I win. I also can't tell you how manytimes ive been stuck at 1 land because of 2X wasteland and come back roaring, it's just a testiment to how powerfull this deck can be on the right draws.
You make your land drops, you win. You miss them and your chances of loss rise with every passing turn.
heres a good question for the board.
Theres a new card in shadowmoore that has recently been spoiled.
1G
Enchantment:
All lands you control count as each basic land type.
To me this screams kill dragonstompy, as they dont run enchantment removal and it makes bloodmoon absolutely worthless. Wouldn't this be playable in 4 c IF you maindecked 1 forest?
I know it sounds kind of bad, but I think its playable because of how horendous that matchup tends to be. Especially with players maindecking akroma angel of fury.
Well making land drops on a consistent basis is one of the biggest fundamentals when building and also playing any type of pure control. Also I am sure you do disagree to a extent considering no deck is optimal against everything. But you should be able to win the burn matchup considering you have cunning wish into pulse of the fields unless of course they force through an red elemental blast on your wish.
There is also not really much you can do about the hate decks either but if your prepared for most of the field I'd say I wouldn't worry about it.
Also if your worried about the dragon stompy matchup I would run a couple of nevinyrral's disks considering they still fit your overall game plan or play an 3 color landstill deck. Nevin's disk sounds like a more tuned strategy then running the basic land enchantment from shadowmoor at least in my opinion.
Team Hammafist!
Sorry but that won't work. If you cast it first, then they play a Moon-effect, your lands will be mountains (and only mountains) thanks to timestamps. If however they get their Moon-effect first, you won't be able to produce any green mana.
Even if it would work, a card that is that narrow would never find its place in Landstill. After all you play broader solutions to anything. Also note that an 1G-enchantment + Deed = not a combo.
Yeah that new enchantment isn't too useful. I'd like to start a discussion on Jace:
I'm going to have to disagree with some people here regarding Jace. Most people either run Jace, Fact or fiction, or some random utility cards in these slots (edict, etc.). Its likely that I would run either Jace or Fact or Fiction if I had the choice. In my opinion, Jace is superior to Fact in Landstill for a few reasons:
1. Jace is a win condition. I don't mean that so much as in the "-10, mill for 20" sense, but in the "I draw an extra card every turn for the rest of the game" sense. When you sweep the board of all threats and drop a Jace down, your opponent MUST answer it, or they will lose. Fact or fiction does not do this.
2. Jace is tough to kill without creatures. In a deck that runs so much creature removal (11 slots), its not too much of a challenge to protect your Jace mid-game (which is when you want to drop him). There arn't that many cards which kill plainswalkers in the current meta. Sure, burn and creatures make short work of him, but if you're being attacked and burned to death, you have other problems.
3. Jace is blue and costs 3. Not that you'll be playing Jace early, but its nice to have a cycling damage sponge early on if you need another land drop to save yourself. Force of will bait doesn't hurt either.
The best arguments against Jace that I see, are that he draws cards slowly when compared to fact or fiction, and is vulnerable in situations when you are facing massive creature hordes. People say that Jace seems like a "win-more" card, but really, Jace is just like standstill. You clear the board and drop a Standstill OR Jace, and let the card advantage roll in. Try it out, its a good card!
Jace could be amazing in the right combination, but keep in mind that no 2 landstill hands are ever the same. Some have alot of counters in them and some have alot of removal and some have alot of draw spells in them, and then there are the generalized hands with a combination of all 3 minus the land you need. :(
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