[Deck] Pox

[Clark Kant]

You realize that you can't cast Pox off of even 2 Swamps and 1 Factory don't you, much less 2 Factories? If one of the Swamps was a Urborg, you could.

[mujadaddy]

Yeah, I realize, thanks

There's just a looooot of nonbasic land hate out there for me to worry about Urborg when I'm going for a mono list.


I've been considering Imp's Mischief for the sideboard... It's pretty narrow, but it'd be nice to redirect the occasional spell from time to time...

[Clark Kant]

It seems rather narrow in this deck. If it wasn't for the lifeloss, it might have been decent. What do you redirect? You can't redirect countermagic and you will almost never have the mana to both play a Sinkhole and protect it with an Imp's Mischief early on, when countermagic actually matters. The only thing to misdirect imo is the creature kill (protect Tombstalker) and burn away from your dome. Losing life to misdirect burn is counterproductive, and you have discard, and mana disruption to protect tombstalker.

Any thoughts on Epochrasite? Has anyone tried running the card with Tombstalker in the monoblack pox lists?

A 4/4 is a pretty strong roadblock against random (ie. nongoyf based) aggro. Much more so than a 2/2. It is one turn slower to get back than Nether Spirit though.

// Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Swamp
4 Scrubland
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Flagstones of Trokair

// Creatures
4 Tombstalker
3 Epochrasite

// Spells
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
3 Pox
3 Rancid Earth
3 Ghostly Prison

// Sideboard
1 Ghostly Prison
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 The Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale

I run him in the above list because the deck couldn't support both Mishra's Factories and Flagstones, so I figured Epochrasite would work well as the bonus threat while allowing me to cut Crucible.

But then again, the classic Vaka Pox list that uses both Crucibles and Factories instead is very strong too.

// Lands
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Swamp
3 Mishra's Factory

// Threats
4 Tombstalker

// Disruption
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
4 Pox
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Rancid Earth

// Sideboard
2 Duress
2 Ghostly Prison
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 Chalice of the Void
4 The Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale

It lets me get away with running the full 4 Poxes as I have Crucible and only have 4 creatures that die to Pox.

I'm just trying to figure out which list is better.

[Land]

14-man tournament
Round 1
Game 1...

Opening hand: Swamp, Swamp, Dark Ritual, Tombstalker, Tombstalker, Smallpox, Hymn to Tourach

- G/R Welder Survival mulligans to 5 on the play.
- Wooded Foothills crack, Taiga, Welder

Draw for turn, Dark Ritual.
At this point I realized that the game state had taken a drastic turn in my favor. I look the hand over, knowing the power play is there...

Swamp
Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual
- Ok.
Smallpox, pitch Tombstalker
- =(
Announce the Tombstalker being played and scrape my grave away. Your go.
- OMGWTFBBQHAX!!!@!@!@ (not really... his reaction was not near as exuberant, but none the less effective in relaying his tension.)

3rd place win overall.
G/R Welder went on to intentional draw against Tinker for 1st place since both decks were owned by the same player.

[Maëlig]

Nice play Land, and congrats for the 3rd place. :)
Has anyone thought of solutions for this deck against burn and sligh decks? Those are terrible MU and if pox is to become competitive this is the main problem it will have to answer to imho. Now I know those 2 decks "shouldn't" be played in a competitive environment, but from my experience you always come across some and it's disapointing to lose against decks that are probably not going to make it to the top anyways. The only good option I see is putting 4 sun droplet in the SB, which I have been testing recently. The MU is still pretty bad, but if you have the chance of getting one in your opening hand you have your chances, and a second one is usually game. The problem is that red has access to good artifact-hate, and that it seems a bit too narrow as a SB option (it seriously limits your options).

[mujadaddy]

Burn is a horrible matchup. Only supreme luck with discard can help.

Sligh -- just board in more creature hate.

[kabal]

14-man

3rd place win overall.

Could you share your decklist? Thanks.

[eternaldarkness]

Burn is indeed horrible. I suggest you pray not to get paired against burn during a tourney. If you do find yourself facing a burn deck, side out all the poxes.

The droplet is too weak against burn and is a pretty narrow sideboard choice. You may want to consider Chalice of the Void if there's a lot of burn in your meta. Chalice at 1 can hurt you a little, but most of our 1cc spells (Thoughtseize + Dark Ritual) anyway are pretty much dead after the early game.

[mujadaddy]

Burn - pray

Totally

Oddly enough, I couldn't get back to sleep last night, and it occurred to me that Chalice@1 solves a lot of the deck's problems.

[rleader]

Just in the realm of speculation at this point, but if you played Beseech the Queen, what bullets would you pick? My first brainstorm went something like this:

6 Snow Covered Swamp
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb

4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
2 Powder Keg

4 Beseech the Queen
1 Rhystic Tutor (I think the deck might be able to get away with running this as a singleton)
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Planar Void
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Plague
1 Extirpate
1 Painter's Servant
1 Grindstone

3 Tombstalker

Side:

3 Trinisphere
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Extirpate
3 Pox
1 Dystopia
1 Sphere of Resistance

I dropped Pox to make room for everything, but it can come back in to replace useless bullets. I'm curious to test to see if the deck can slow down an opponent enough where it can afford to waste a turn tutoring. If the effect is powerful enough, I think it can, especially as a lot of decks are unprepared for hate in game one. Also, where as other decks use two or three slots on Crucible, here, you only need one for when you know you can set up a lock.

A good portion of the bullets can be found off of a turn one dark-ritual into Beseech, as you only need one (or zero) lands.

I'm mostly just thinking theory at this point. Which is why I stripped the Factories for the Ancient Tombs and tossed in the Grindstone kill (if you ever accidentally fall upon one of the pieces, tutor for the other).

[mujadaddy]

Rhystic Tutor? No. Don't give your opponent a choice as to whether your tutor works or not. There are at least 3 better tutors out there.

Beseech the Queen? I don't think so either -- you'd rather not show the opponent what you're about to do to them if you can help it.

I'm curious to test to see if the deck can slow down an opponent enough where it can afford to waste a turn tutoring.

Certainly. Have you played the deck much? This deck specializes in getting both sides into top-deck mode.

I'm mostly just thinking theory at this point. Which is why I stripped the Factories for the Ancient Tombs and tossed in the Grindstone kill (if you ever accidentally fall upon one of the pieces, tutor for the other).

...Ancient Tomb? No wai. What's your reasoning for that? Run uh... that rainbow land that pings for 1 before Tomb... And the Grindstone kill is NOT for this deck, imo. And Mishra's Factories are really powerful... in this deck, too.

[Aggro_zombies]

Beseech the Queen? I don't think so either -- you'd rather not show the opponent what you're about to do to them if you can help it.Certainly. Have you played the deck much? This deck specializes in getting both sides into top-deck mode.

...except this deck has the worst topdeck mode in the format. At least Nourishing Lich can win if it gets a Shoal and a Wurm. Here, drawing a Hymn, Sinkhole, Ritual, Thoughtseize, or land when your opponent is in topdeck mode is like asking to get raped.

Having played this deck a lot in the past I can say, somewhat unhelpfully, that it isn't viable. Basically, you're playing a deck that tries to put both players into a game mode where you will almost always lose (unless you're insanely lucky and/or you don't run Pox) because you have more dead cards in the aforementioned game mode than they do. Drawing a Thoughtseize and then having your opponent draw and play a Tarmogoyf right after you Poxed is a kick in the nuts. I abandoned this deck because I couldn't find a way (and still can't, really) to overcome your terrible mid- to late-game.

That said, if people really want to work on this deck, I think removing all of the Poxes is a good first step. Let's face it, Pox is a terrible card. It forces you to play a host of subpar cards so that you can come out "ahead" after casting another subpar card that pushes you into a game state where black disruption decks typically have problems. Dropping Pox allows you to focus on play stuff that's actually good but not synergistic with Pox.

I'd also suggest splashing green. Life from the Loam and cycling lands are great, Tarmogoyf is great, Eternal Witness is great, Genesis is great. If you want a lighter green splash, use Volrath's Stronghold and Regrowth instead. You also have access now to Deed, Krosan Grip, and potentially Living Wish (recurring Fulminator Mage seems hot). You've also got access to dredge guys, which are really good in a deck with a lot of symmetrical sacrifice effects - the best probably being Grave-Shell Scarab here. Garruk is also a house because he can accelerate you pre-Pox/Smallpox and shit out tons of guys immediately afterwards. Basically, running green allows you to further break the inherent disadvantage to playing symmetrical destruction effects by giving you access to better men, better removal, and better recursion.

[Top Deck]

...except this deck has the worst topdeck mode in the format. At least Nourishing Lich can win if it gets a Shoal and a Wurm. Here, drawing a Hymn, Sinkhole, Ritual, Thoughtseize, or land when your opponent is in topdeck mode is like asking to get raped.

Having played this deck a lot in the past I can say, somewhat unhelpfully, that it isn't viable. Basically, you're playing a deck that tries to put both players into a game mode where you will almost always lose (unless you're insanely lucky and/or you don't run Pox) because you have more dead cards in the aforementioned game mode than they do. Drawing a Thoughtseize and then having your opponent draw and play a Tarmogoyf right after you Poxed is a kick in the nuts. I abandoned this deck because I couldn't find a way (and still can't, really) to overcome your terrible mid- to late-game.

That said, if people really want to work on this deck, I think removing all of the Poxes is a good first step. Let's face it, Pox is a terrible card. It forces you to play a host of subpar cards so that you can come out "ahead" after casting another subpar card that pushes you into a game state where black disruption decks typically have problems. Dropping Pox allows you to focus on play stuff that's actually good but not synergistic with Pox.

I'd also suggest splashing green. Life from the Loam and cycling lands are great, Tarmogoyf is great, Eternal Witness is great, Genesis is great. If you want a lighter green splash, use Volrath's Stronghold and Regrowth instead. You also have access now to Deed, Krosan Grip, and potentially Living Wish (recurring Fulminator Mage seems hot). You've also got access to dredge guys, which are really good in a deck with a lot of symmetrical sacrifice effects - the best probably being Grave-Shell Scarab here. Garruk is also a house because he can accelerate you pre-Pox/Smallpox and shit out tons of guys immediately afterwards. Basically, running green allows you to further break the inherent disadvantage to playing symmetrical destruction effects by giving you access to better men, better removal, and better recursion.

Pox is honestly better at the mid/late game. Both players are in top deck; however, you have constant threats like nether spirit and chimeric idol. The idea is your top decks are better than their because your's should require less resources to power out, and you have resource denial in both perm destruction and hand destruction.

This is also one of the reasons why pox is bad against monored burn. Burn generally needs even less resources than pox (a land and a bolt of some type). :p

This is the reason why nether spirit is invaluable in the deck. It essentially is a "free" spell. Oddly enough i was thinking about combining pox with some type of ichorid strategy since ichorid requires probably even less resources, but the problem with that is the number of card slots required. Ichorid requires a lot of slots to keep it going or fed.

[Cabal-kun]

Both players are in top deck; however, you have constant threats like nether spirit and chimeric idol. The idea is your top decks are better than their because your's should require less resources to power out, and you have resource denial in both perm destruction and hand destruction.

I can totally see top decking discard when they can draw and play their cards during their turn as being better than anything else. Drawing dead cards = tech. Did you read Aggro_zombie's post at all when you quoted it?

[Maëlig]

Hum... on another note, has anyone tried cremate MD? I'm a bit concerned about the lack of GY hate MD since pox doesn't do well against decks resilient to mana-denial and/or discard such as ichorid and LftL-decks. At worse, it cycles for 1, fills your GY for tomb stalker and can remove a creature blocking nether spirit from your GY.

[rleader]

Rhystic Tutor? No. Don't give your opponent a choice as to whether your tutor works or not. There are at least 3 better tutors out there.

Not at three mana, not for less than $200 a playset. With all the LD in the deck, the opponent is going to have to tap out at some point, which is why I suggested Rhystic might be playable as a one-of.

Having played this deck a lot in the past I can say,

IOW, before Tombstalker was invented.

I'd play a Pox deck against a Garruk deck any day of the week.

Hum... on another note, has anyone tried cremate MD?

Interesting idea.

[Michael Keller]

Dropping Pox allows you to focus on play stuff that's actually good but not synergistic with Pox.

Dropping Pox turns this deck into solid M.B.C. If that's what you want, then fine. But Pox is not a bad card, not by any means. I suppose you can offer comparisons to Death Cloud (which is far more devastating if you can resolve it), but Pox the card should in no way be dismissed as simply "bad". That card is the heart and soul of the deck, and can swing the game in a tremendous way.

[Aggro_zombies]

That card is the heart and soul of the deck, and can swing the game in a tremendous way.

And Pox the deck is a terrible deck. Seriously, you have to play things like Nether Spirit and Chimeric Idol to win when your opponent can pack Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose? Something seems wrong there.

[Michael Keller]

Well maybe what Pox needs is a small color splash to add a little consistency and resiliency.

[mujadaddy]

Hum... on another note, has anyone tried cremate MD? I'm a bit concerned about the lack of GY hate MD since pox doesn't do well against decks resilient to mana-denial and/or discard such as ichorid and LftL-decks. At worse, it cycles for 1, fills your GY for tomb stalker and can remove a creature blocking nether spirit from your GY.

Cremate: not the worst suggestion I've ever seen... But maindecking such narrow GY hate doesn't really excite me... Ichorid & LftL are dead meat after sideboarding, though, don't you think? I've had sooo many Ichorid players scoop to a turn 0 Leyline... and Loam players scoop after about 6 or 7 turns, too.

re "Cut Pox": I've cut down to two. The reasons you don't want to cut them out completely, though, is because 1/3 of the opponent's life is a sexxxxxxy number for them to lose. It makes everything else the deck tries to do work better, ie, faster.

My computer at home died Monday night, so I haven't tested Chalice of the Void yet, but I'm betting that Chalice at 1 is going to be a big thing (Brainstorm & Mongoose, just to name 2 pains in my ass )

re: Tutors for $200/playset -- Um, Infernals? -- also, why run FOUR tutors? 1 or two should be enough, no?