Back to the discussion on hand:
It seems to me that Tendrils combo can do a few things on its turn.
A) Go all in - This is basically trying to win and losing if your opponent has more disruption than you have protection. This is more and more effective with more turns of Set Up.
B) Bait - This would be something like Chanting when you can't go off so you can Extirpate their FoW, or early game dropping an IGG so they either have to FoW or lose their land drops/aggro.
C) Set Up - In some decks this is just "Draw, Go", and in some forms of Combo it's "Infernal Tutor for Chant #2, go". Either way, setting up will always make the "All In" play more effective, however, this also gives your opponent more time to stop you. The fact is that the better at setting up a Storm Deck is, the better it will be.
Therefore, it seems to me that the best Combo deck in the format is the one that can Set Up the fastest, outpacing the disruption of the deck that is trying to stop it.
I think that in a vacuum, the best combo deck to take to a tourney is the one which you can play the best.
I would never choose to play combo with no practice, but if I had to, I'd pick Belcher, which (except for the occasional "hold a piece of acceleration back to recover" play), has only the "mull or keep" decision to make.
If I was trying to factor skill into it, I'd probably take a Tendrils list.
If I were trying to beat control, Solidarity is a solid (sorry) choice.
Ichorid does a dance on Thresh's face, to answer your specific question.
So really, in playing combo, you need to pick the deck to fit you, and then to fit the tourney meta. Anything else in just hot air.
Well, you should never play ANY deck with no practice.
well i would say U/B reanimator.
its combo, and its consistent.
Id like to milk that oreo... split it in half...and lick all that sweet sweet candy off. mmmmm... oreos....
well i would say <insert almost any combo deck name here>.
its combo, and its consistent.
Not like it says something.
Keep moon-walking.
Best current combo deck: Fetchland Tendrils
Runner-up: TES
Ok, let's elaborate a bit.
When Empty the Warrens was printed there was quite a hype. Belcher became consistent and TES/Iggy Pop had an alternative win condition. Everybody wanted to include answers to a turn 1 EtW in their decks - similar to the obvious "Lackey answer" before. There was a Source thread looking for possibilities to stop those turn 1 10-14 Goblins. And people started playing answers. Now look at the current format. TES lists went away from playing a full set of EtW and most pilots only use it as a backup plan if nothing else works - or occasionally hope that 10 Goblins on turn 1 either remain unanswered or do enough damage to win with a mini-Tendrils. Most FT lists don't run EtW, although they could support it easily. Belcher has dropped in popularity (at least in Europe... not at the places where A Legend is playing). Conclusion: EtW was too strong, people started hating it, now it's not very good anymore.
Then there was the Breakfast hype. A combo deck that also plays the unholy trio "Brainstorm, Force of Will, Tarmogoyf". A combo deck with a solid backup plan. But is it really solid anymore? Somebody pointed it out in this thread, Tarmogoyf + Force of Will alone doesn't win games anymore. People are trying to beat every single Threshold variant out there (and they succeed), why should they scoop to a single Force-protected Goyf? Beating Breakfast doesn't seem too difficult to beat: Step 1, disrupt their combo (Needle, counters, Leyline, Extirpate, Mogg Fanatic, whatever), Step 2, beat a very suboptimal Threshold deck (if you're not able to do that, you're either very unlucky or playing a bad deck). Breakfast has dropped in popularity.
Every single combo deck in the format is good enough to break a metagame and win tournaments. FT is, TES is, Belcher is, Breakfast is (was), Ichorid is. But after they win, people are trying to hate it. How can combo decks react to hate?
Belcher - the obvious hate cards are Force of Will, Daze, Pithing Needle, Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, discard spells for B, Meddling Mage, Orim's Chant and EtW answers. To beat Force of Will, Daze and other counterspells, people tested Pyroblast and Xantid Swarm. Both have proven to be quite unreliable, you have no way to tutor for them. Burning Wish for Thoughtseize costs 3 Mana - not good in a deck with 1-2 lands. Against Pithing Needle, Chalice and Trinisphere there's Shattering Spree - wishable for 3 mana (slows you down) or playable as a 4-of in the board that gets sided in (sacrificing consistency). Against Meddling Mage there's Burning Wish - Cave-In or Pyroclasm, either 4 Mana or 2 Mana + card disadvantage. EtW answers can't be beaten, they can be raced by Burning Wish - Goblin War Strike, which is also very unprobable to set up. Against Orim's Chant you have no out, you lose.
Is it possible for a Belcher player to adapt to hate? No. You race it or you recover fast enough for a second and third attempt (with no draw spells, no Tutors and no library manipulation) or you die. You don't improve your blue matchups very significantly by playing Pyroblasts in the board. You don't improve your artifact-based hate matchups very signficantly by playing 4x Shattering Spree in the board. Look at the discussions in the Belcher thread, people are pretty much only arguing which build combines speed and consistency best - 2 lands with Dark Ritual or 1 land straight RG, Manamorphose or no, Spoils of the Vault or no. You can't prepare your deck for the meta you're playing in, you can even play All Hallow's Eve in your sideboard, it's irrelevant.
Let's have a look at Ichorid. You can tune this deck according to the meta - Ray of Revelation, Ancient Grudge, reanimation targets for specific matchups (Akroma, Ancestor's Chosen, Woodfall Primus, Simic Sky Swallower...), Street Wraith. Still, there are certain hate cards you really don't like to see - Leyline of the Void, Yixlid Jailer, Extirpate (Tormod's Crypt doesn't belong to this list). Against Leyline and Jailer answers exist and you can draw them with Careful Study or tutor for them with Gamble, still you won't be able to beat 2 Leylines or 2 Jailers without a ton of luck. Extirpate doesn't have answers, but a single one can often be played around. Good Luck facing double Extirpate, though (this is one situation where I like SSS). There's a significant difference to Belcher - while Belcher can't adapt at all, Ichorid can adapt - multiple Darkblasts/Contagions against Jailer, multiple Wax/Wane / Ray of Revelation / Chain of Vapor / Echoing Truth / Serenity against Leylines, Chalice and Threat diversity against Extirpate. But Ichorid is hurt way too much by hate, the deck has absolutely no backup and the answers have to be drawn.
Breakfast - already covered this (sort of), the combo is probably the most easy one to disrupt and the backup plan - while existing - just isn't good enough in the current meta. It's like every deck has at least 10 answers to the combo - main. You can't adapt to the wide variety of answers.
TES - we're getting close. A current oversized sideboard could look like this:
5 ToA/EtW/IGG/DRt/D4
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Pyroblast
4 Shattering Spree
1 Cleanfall
1 Pyroclasm
1 Thoughtseize
That's 20 cards. The ability to board Shattering Spree in hoses Chalice-Decks, the ability to board in Shushers and Pyroblasts is currently tested, and, looking at the TES thread, it's found to be quite successful against Counterbalance. Countermagic is also dealt with Shusher, Pyroblast and the mainboard Orim's Chant, a backup plan (namely Empty the Warrens) exists. Are there further answers to TES? I don't think so, you have an answer for every single hate card.
So what's the problem? Lack of tutor- and draw-power. Sure Ponders are great. You do have Brainstorms digging for you, but you can't shuffle anything away. Infernal does nothing in finding answers (unless you already have one and want to make sure). Burning Wish is very expensive (remember, this is a 10-land-deck). Very often having the right answer is draw-dependant, and "metagaming" comes down to changing 4 sideboard slots - TES mainboards don't tend to differ greatly - and you don't discover huge changes in the matchups after changing those 4 slots.
Now Fetchland Tendrils. You can literally play everything. You can splash green and/or red. You have the best tutor power in the format with Mystical Tutor, Grim Tutor, Brainstorm+Fetch, Ponder+Fetch and Death Wish - play as much as you need. You have uncounterable answers to anything - Wipe Away, Sudden Death, Krosan Grip - if you want to play them. I'm following the FT thread here and on the Storm Boards, it seems like every day 2-3 new lists get posted. And not in the manner "I take out 2x Card X and add 2x Card Y"; the changes between those lists are pretty huge and the changes affect the way of playing the deck quite dramatically (e.g. SDT vs Street Wraith). The hugest advantage of this deck is its amazing flexibility. You win a tournament, next week they're all playing Chalice-decks, so you play 4x Serenity in the board and Death Wishes main (emidln said something along the lines of "Stax is a Bye") and win again, next week they show up with Counterbalance decks and you just cast your Wipe Aways and Krosan Grips and still win. Again, the important thing is the tutor power of the deck, which makes you play additional 2-8 instances of each anti-hate card you add. And you still keep your great aggro matchup (although I think the petal-less lists are a step in the wrong direction in this case).
Short summary:
FT can adapt to every meta and it will either draw or tutor its answers. This makes it the Best Combo Deck.
TES can adapt a little bit, but it doesn't have enough tutor power.
Ichorid can adapt a little bit, but if the hate hits, it hits too hard.
Belcher is a static list, it can't adapt at all. Hate is unanswered, it only wins through it due to its amazing speed.
Breakfast is not viable atm.
Solidarity - meh. I don't know.
SI, Aluren - I don't know the decks enough to write about them...
Are there other serious combo decks? (If you call Enchantress combo, I'll gladly go with Clark Kant and call Balance+Top combo. Ichorid is already close to the edge.)
Team SPOD[23:08:50] <@Anusien> You want me to actually test?
[23:09:02] <frogboy> I thought you already hadOriginally Posted by herbig
What Balance + Top? You mean just the cards?
Maybe someone should define what they mean by combo, first.
Early one morning while making the round,
I took a shot of cocaine and I shot my woman down;
I went right home and I went to bed,
I stuck that lovin' .44 beneath my head.
My opinion:
A combo deck is defined by the process of "going off". After going off, you
a) win (Tendrils, Stroke of Genius, Belcher, Sutured Ghoul)
b) have created a very favorable position and sit there for the rest of the game, playing nothing and watching the opponent lose in the next few turns (EtW, Brain Freeze leaves 0-5 cards in library, Aluren after comboing out [4 Forces in hand, 20 creatures on board], Swan+CoP-Decks without Lightning Storm/Conflagrate) - sometimes you might lose from this position, though.
c) have infinite life
"Going off" requires either playing many spells (Storm Combo, Belcher) or a 2- or 3-card interaction that creates some kind of (finite) loop (Breakfast, Swans, Aluren + Cavern Harpy + x, Life.dec, I Will Survive). It's not different in any other format, Reveillark Combo uses a loop, Dragonstorm, Heartbeat + TEPS are Storm Combo.
This is what I would call combo. Ichorid "goes off" rarely, and if it does, it's turn 1 or turn 2. Usually it doesn't play more than 4 spells (LED, Breakthrough, DA, Dread Return), and there's no loop. Ichorid is more an aggro deck - turn 1 I have 1 creature, turn 2 I have 3 creatures and swing, turn 3 I have 7 creatures and swing. The real "combo" gets boarded out most of the time. Enchantress does play many spells while "going off" (if it kills via Words of War, other win conditions like Sacred Mesa or Hoofprints of the Stag work differently), but even with Words of War it's not necessary to kill in one turn. Also - the deck sits behind Confinements and Elephant Grasses half of the time, how could you not call it "Prison"?
There probably is one different kind of "Combo" - "Bring Fattie into play with alternative casting cost". I'd take Tooth and Nail, Oath, Flash and Extended Hulk decks into this category. But this category is nearly unexisting in Legacy (apart from this strange UB Reanimator-Deck).
Team SPOD[23:08:50] <@Anusien> You want me to actually test?
[23:09:02] <frogboy> I thought you already had
Lack of tutor and draw power? Between 4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm, 2 Infernal Contract, 4 Burning Wish, 4 Infernal tutor? 18 cards isn't enough? 1R is expensive? Between 10 lands, 4 Chrome Mox, 4 Lotus Petal, and 4 SSG, if you can't cast Burning Wish, I'm sorry. It's probably not the deck. I often draw 2-4 lands a game against control where you need to cast Burning Wish as an answer, I don't know about other people but ten lands seems to be the norm. TES can also win before the hate comes down, I play in the same metagame week after week. Playing through new hate and new decks, yet I still take first a considerable amount of the time. I haven't heard any complaints or people saying we should up the land count. This is going to come across as a flame and I don't mean it to. Have you ever tested TES it doesn't seem like you have.
If it can literally play everything why isn't it playing Vexing Shusher? It's the best card for storm combo since ETW. Theres no reason not to play it if you can literally play anything. The deck doesn't even play Grim tutor anymore so I'm ignoring that, then again whats the current list for today? Changing your list every other day isn't a good thing. Yes, it shows that you have free slots, but doesn't make the deck any more flexible if you're arguing SDT vs. Street Wraith. Hell, if I wanted to, I could change my 6 or 7 open slots in TES every day if I wanted to also. However, I already found the cards best fit for the slots which is why I don't. TES isn't flexible? This is news to me, with a customizable wishboard, 6 open slots in the maindeck, and actually being able to play any card I think it's slightly more flexible. Does one Death Wish really add that much flexibility? Great match-up against aggro? The SDT lists are slow, I barely consider it combo anymore. The average 2.5 combo win turn is false, I'm sure many people would agree with me. It's 3.5-4 now.Now Fetchland Tendrils. You can literally play everything. You can splash green and/or red. You have the best tutor power in the format with Mystical Tutor, Grim Tutor, Brainstorm+Fetch, Ponder+Fetch and Death Wish - play as much as you need. You have uncounterable answers to anything - Wipe Away, Sudden Death, Krosan Grip - if you want to play them. I'm following the FT thread here and on the Storm Boards, it seems like every day 2-3 new lists get posted. And not in the manner "I take out 2x Card X and add 2x Card Y"; the changes between those lists are pretty huge and the changes affect the way of playing the deck quite dramatically (e.g. SDT vs Street Wraith). The hugest advantage of this deck is its amazing flexibility. You win a tournament, next week they're all playing Chalice-decks, so you play 4x Serenity in the board and Death Wishes main (emidln said something along the lines of "Stax is a Bye") and win again, next week they show up with Counterbalance decks and you just cast your Wipe Aways and Krosan Grips and still win. Again, the important thing is the tutor power of the deck, which makes you play additional 2-8 instances of each anti-hate card you add. And you still keep your great aggro matchup (although I think the petal-less lists are a step in the wrong direction in this case).
You can have your opinion, just use facts when talking about them. The flavor of the month will soon die down.
I have to say that all in all, this is one of the most masturbatory threads on the Source in it's history. From what I've seen, it's a study in who can defend their pet deck harder, and honestly, I don't believe it's relevant. I'd even go so far as to say the entire exercise is worthless, as the defenition of "best" is so vague that there's no possible way to get an objective, clearly defined winner. So, there you have it.
Edit - You know what? I don't even really care. Have fun jerking each other off.
Ah, Curse you, Nightmare. I've written an answer, then you closed the thread and now it's gone :[ (also, why is Bryant trying to defend his pet deck if I haven't even attacked it?)
Allright, short summary:
- I'm not insulting TES, I just think that FT's ability to adapt to certain metagames is superior. That's why I consider it to be the overall better deck, you can build to include answers to specific hate but you can also build it to include answers to ALL kind of hate for an unkown meta. If I try to do this with TES I end up with a 25-card sideboard. This doesn't mean that FT is always the better choice.
- Why have I talked about "Lack of tutor and draw power"? Simple. Imagine you don't draw Orim's Chant in your opening 7. How fast/reliable do you get one with TES? And how fast/reliable with FT?
- Yes, I have tested and played both decks. And I'm really excited about Shusher. I also hate several of the newer SDT builds of FT for the reasons you've said.
Here is where I have to ask YOU: Did you test it? 5 Death Wishes main add very much flexibility.Does one Death Wish really add that much flexibility?
Team SPOD[23:08:50] <@Anusien> You want me to actually test?
[23:09:02] <frogboy> I thought you already had
To some one who doesn't use Storm combo, I suppose that's a fair assessment, but from the other side of the perspective, there is a lot of fallacious statements being made about FT in comparison to other Storm combo decks that need to be addressed.
Arguing over TES vs FT vs SI vs Belcher based Storm decks is no more inane than debating over the color variants of Landstill or Threshold, it just pertains to a smaller demographic of people than the Force of Will band wagon.
I should've addressed your sideboard issue before. 25 card sideboard? What is the TES sideboard lacking? What doesn't it answer? From my latest list... I'm just curious of what it's lacking. If you ask me Fetchland Tendrils and TES are quite even when it comes to room and the ability to adapt to metagames. TES more so since you can literally play anything without hurting the deck. Unlike Fetch Tendrils where you have to add in more duals and hurt your ability to get other colors.
TES has 4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm, 2 Infernal Contract. To find Orim's Chants, I think it's reasonable to say if I need one I'll find one. FT has 4 Brainstorm, 3-4 Ponder (Depending on which list of the day), 3-4 SDT (some people don't play this), 1 Infernal Contract and 3 Mystical Tutor. At the very most running maximums of these cards theres 16 to TES's 10. However, TES has Burning Wish for Thoughtsieze. Meaning TES doesn't have to find Orim's Chant since it has another option. In the end, if FT players play the maximum number of cards they're really only running 2 more ways of finding protection. Most lists don't run that many and will be on par with TES or below. However, post sideboard, TES gains 4 Vexing Shusher and 3 Pyroblast. Changing these numbers greatly. Fetchland Tendrils has two more options game one if they run the most that they can, where TES has the standard and then has more games two and three. On top of being the faster deck and having Empty the Warrens to it's advantage. Having a better chance to win before your opponent finds Force of Will is huge.
I've tested three different Fetchland Tendrils lists, so yes. I'm failing to see how you play 5 Death Wish, all the lists I found play 1. I'm assuming you mean 3 Mystical, 1 actual Death Wish, 1 x?
FT plays a minimum of 4 topdeck tutors (Mystical, LDV, or some combination thereof). This is combined with a minimum of 11 cantrip effects (Brainstorm/Ponder/SDT/SW). Add in 4 Chants, and the optional Death Wish in some builds. That comes up with 8-9 copies of chant (whether of not Death Wish is included, ignoring the recent build I've been playing with 2 LDV, 3 Mystical).
Now the sideboard has:
2 Abeyance
1-2 Extirpate (depending on whether an Extirpate is maindecked)
It's been brought up that Extirpate isn't a real piece of control hate, but anyone who says that doesn't actually understand what Extirpate does. The function here is to guarantee that Chant #2 resolves by pulling the only cards capable of stopping chant out of an opponent's deck. There are up to two, because control in legacy plays up to two hard counters.
Shusher is really good (again, anyone who says otherwise hasn't been playing it properly), but it's still vulnerable to creature removal. Extirpate doesn't suffer this issue and is found by all of the standard tools.
The biggest difference in TES and FT has come recently with Shusher's ability to go off through countermagic largely without resolving Chant effects. Without Top in the deck, this would be a huge disadvantage for FT, removal effects or not. The thing is that Top largely simulates this for FT while still avoiding critter removal. Top lets FT play with an extra 3 cards that are castable off our four black lotus, even after a hellbent tutor is countered. This is so degenerate that people who test with me have taken to boarding needles against FT's Top because it is so much better than their own in CB decks. With topdeck tutors like Mystical, LDV, and Doomsday, combined with plentiful shuffle effects and Brainstorm, countering all the cards in our hand no longer guarantees a win (or even makes it probable). Indeed now you need stifle or needle on top to make sure that Brainstorm/LDV/fate didn't put yet another tutor or tendrils on top of the deck.
As far as not having a stable list, I don't see this as a problem. Good storm combo players can easily identify good and bad cards in a list and how matchups play out without even testing. I can immediately dismiss configurations of storm combo as easily as a Thresh player can throw out Tarpan. When I cut particular cards, I know exactly which goals those cuts are going to affect in each matchup, how they affect my goldfish, and what interactions I might gain or lose. I know what stops them. When I was adding Top I could already foresee (and mentioned it several times) that needle on top was going to be a diffculty. The people who aren't immediately seeing the benefits/drawbacks of particular cards are the weak players who probably won't be able to win regardless. I'm not the only storm combo player who does this. Bryant is notorious for this same arrogance that deckbuilders extremely familiar with their archetype have a tendency to develop.
The flexibility argument someone brought up is garbage. TES plays whatever the pilot feels he can cast, which is anything with a CMC of 4 or less. FT is slightly more restricted, but it's self-imposed only because red and green have very little that compels FT players to run more heavy splashes. Shusher could be added in pretty easily, especially in the builds with 16-17 lands, but it's just not worth it when Chant/Extirpate/KGrip/Wipe Away already do what Shusher wants to do and those are available without such a heavy color commitment.
@ Bryant
I think they mean 4x Mystical to find the 1x Death Wish as the additional copies.
@ Everyone
I'm also finding the speed arguments against the Top/Doomsday version pretty tiring. For anyone who hasn't realized this yet, Doomsday significantly speeds up the goldfish while adding to the threat density (even when faced with hate), is tutorable with Mystical Tutor, and requires less acceleration than a typical Infernal Tutor->IGG hand. If you can't goldfish each hand by turn 3 you aren't mulling properly or simply don't understand how the pieces fit together (i.e. you are making bad decisions with cantrips and tutors).
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
I think the validity of the thread is strong, particularly given that it's putting defenses of all the current tier 1 (and some tier 2) combo decks in a single place where we can try to analyze the strengths and weaknesses without hitting multiple threads (all equally masturbatory in their own right) and trying to juxtapose arguments upon each other.
One thing that's really interesting is that it's becoming clear that FT is a hybridization of TES (the major component) and Iggy Pop with a few new angles thrown in. That's why I think it's strongest right now: it has proven tech in play being used to allow combo to proceed at it's own pace instead of at the mercy of opposing control. You can still win turn 1 or 2 with an excellent draw but you can equally well win on turn 6 even after the opponent has gotten his controls into play.
@ your sideboard: Off the top of my head a Draw 4 is missing and additional Shattering Sprees are missing. The Sprees are pretty important when you're facing stuff like Chalice @ 2 or Trinisphere. Being able to side them in is huge against Stax and XY Stompy.
@ Orim's Chant issue: Don't forget that Mystical Tutor (which I've never played less than 4 in FT) FINDS Chant while your draw spells TRY to find Chant (and you're playing "unpowered" Brainstorms which can stop your digging for 2 turns). Sure Burning Wish -> Thoughtseize is another possibility to play around FoW. You can also go off through a counter sometimes. The argument of Draw/Tutor power remains the same. The power of the Tutors is especially important postboard: while you have a toolbox you can access sorcery-speed for 1R, FT has a toolbox it can access instant-speed (dodging discard) for U. It may not contain any color, but it may contain instants.
Again, this is an aspect where FT has the upper hand. There are other aspects where TES has the upper hand. "Having a better chance to win before your opponent finds Force of Will" is one of them, but it doesn't change the fact that the Draw/Tutor power of FT is superior.
@ Death Wish: 1 Wish, 4 Mystical.
Team SPOD[23:08:50] <@Anusien> You want me to actually test?
[23:09:02] <frogboy> I thought you already had
Before the release of Scourge, your definition would have been totally inapplicable. Combo was defined as that - a combination of cards, that when played, won the game. Buried Alive + Animate Dead, or Illusions + Donate. But clearly the new Tendrils decks were neither aggro nor control - they were combo, but they didn't win by any specific combination of cards, and in fact, that was what made them so good.
So did Storm rewrite the definition, or did it reveal that the definition that relied on the kill method was inadequate?
Early one morning while making the round,
I took a shot of cocaine and I shot my woman down;
I went right home and I went to bed,
I stuck that lovin' .44 beneath my head.
Instead of looking at just the strengths of the decks... one also has to look at the weaknesses. I personally avoid FT because... not because of needing to adapt a measure to a different deck, but... I find FT to be... more single-minded and strategics to attack that being easier to accomplish over a series of games. With the existence of Runed Halo, we will have to see what form of penetration that has upon the format. However, I do not see it as a major factor as of yet... Not enough white decks. However, one thing that I worry about with FT that I worry less about with TES... is Extirpate. It does much more than remove a card from the game... It is also an untimely shuffle. In the right hands, after a protective Brainstorm to a discard effect or aggressive Mystical Tutor, it negates such unless your opponent can mise it out. Mystical Tutor also opens you up to Therapy if you can not immediately make use of your newfound grab. It doesn't work with my playstyle, where I prefer to keep the state of my hand a secret unless forced otherwise. I use that state to my advantage whenever I am *not* facing a discard deck. However, Fetchland does have... selective resilience in terms of garnering precise quality. It is a double-edged sword. You do trade knowledge to your opponent... in exchange for precision card quality... It is something you can not measure in efficiency... so... in that respect, both decks have their merits. I think FT is a better deck in terms of being able to go off efficiently, like a machine... but TES is better for keeping your opponents in doubt.
@Spatula: I'd probably say that the "loop" in my definition is inaccurate. It doesn't necessarily create a loop, but it needs to be a 2- or 3-card combination that ends up putting you into one of the 3 described scenarios after resolving. Trix falls under category b), you don't have to do much after donating your illusions, but you might still lose. Buried Alive + Animate Dead falls under the category of "play fattie alternatively"-combo which I've included in the end because it's currently not present in Legacy (but in several other formats).
@Dilettante:
Hmm... Burning Wish in TES has this problem and in both FT and TES Infernal Tutor for a second copy of a card is horrible against Therapy. But Mystical? The best plan (against decks with discard) is to hold back your Mystical Tutor until you either win or desperately need some toolbox card you'll be using in your next turn. Otherwise, you can still play it in response to their discard spell.Mystical Tutor also opens you up to Therapy if you can not immediately make use of your newfound grab.
Team SPOD[23:08:50] <@Anusien> You want me to actually test?
[23:09:02] <frogboy> I thought you already had
I've found with more Ponder in the maindeck, you don't really need the sideboard Infernal Contract. For two reasons: Ponders find the maindeck Infernal Contracts, and Ponders find the cards that the Contracts would be looking for. As for more Shattering Sprees, I could understand this, however, in the northeastern part of the United States Chalice decks aren't too popular. Not to mention Shusher can be board in versus those decks to counter Chalice's ability.
I'll concede the point that Fetchland Tendrils is better at finding Chant, I guess they have to be. The later the game goes on the more you have to find it. In the early game it's less important. This leads me to another point, aggro has a strong chance of beating fetchland Tendrils. The deck plays 4-5 cards that take away half of it's life, then fetchlands, complimented with Street Wraiths in some lists. A Goyf swing and a bolt will often end then game.
That's still only one out in the deck. Virtually you have 5 Death Wishes, only one of them answers all the hate throw at such a slow combo deck. Which brings me to Dilettante's post.
I personally get lost in here a few times, but his main point stands. Fetchland Tendrils hate is a lot deeper than hate for TES.
Fetchland Tendrils (only)
- Extirpate. <-Common
- Meddling Mage/Runed Halo <- These will start seeing play with FT only playing Tendrils.
- Tormod's Crypt <- This is huge since almost every deck plays graveyard hate.
- Pithing Needle on Fetchlands and Top hurts badly.<- Very common
- Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast <- Very common.
TES (Only)
- Enginneered Explosives (Empty the Warrens, EE rarely effects Fetch Tendrils)
- Blue Elemental Blast <- Sees very little play. It may with Shusher.
TES and Fetchland Tendrils
- Trinisphere
- Chalice of the Void
- Counterbalance
- More less relevant hate.
Fetchland Tendrils loses to more common hate than TES.
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