What decks run white and/or green but not black? There are 8 DTB decks listed. Three of them use white and/or green, but not black (landstill, and two thresh variants). That's 37% of the decks to beat where this could be useful. Not exactly the tier 1's, but a close enough approximation.Originally Posted by Mental
This is useful in:
Thresh variants without black in the mirror or ichorid matchup (why wouldn't they run it? It's even harder to play around than grunt, and never goes poof.)
Landstill against all things Threshold and Ichorid as well.
Beyond this, it's obviously got some uses outside of Tier 1 that you pointed out. Use in Angel Stompy, use in Armageddon Stax, use in Death and Taxes, use against Loam decks, use against Solidarity, and so on, use against The Rock.
You claimed this wouldn't replace leyline. The fact is, this is (almost) strictly better than leyline if it's not in your opening hand, and it also gives good graveyard hate to two colors that didn't have it before. It'll see play in legacy boards so long as the meta remains the same. It'll be the leyline for control and aggro-control decks essentially, especially those not running black.
Although I am not agree that Shadowmoor will impact the format much, it gives us many potential cards, e.g. swan and painter's stone combo is now not good enough, it doesn't mean that they can't be utilized with later sets.
IMO, Faerie Macabre is the only card I think have instant impact on the format. It hosts all graveyard combo and penetrated protection of chant and counter magic.
As a legacy player, I can safely say that painter's servant will be played, along with Demigod of revenge and swans, in legacy but will probably fall short of being Tier one and reside in binders alongside all the timevault/rings and garruk/stasus decks. Oona will probably make it as a one-of in a few big-mna/control decks as a finisher that wins faster/more reliably than meloku.
As a limited player, I can vouch for the design team and confirm that they spent exactly three minutes testing this set for limited play. The set is more 'bmomby' than tenth, and has less removal. There are only 7.5 ways at common/uncommon level (in a large set) to 'kill' the raptor that turns all your dudes into exalteds. (and 3.5 of those only tap it, so you still have to deal with the static ability.) I've personally had to win through midnight banshee + knight of kulrath, midnight banshee + grim poppet, and raptor + the new 5/5 serra that wont die. (I didn't get there against that last one) Absolutely god-awful.
Type 2 is going to go so ape-shit with Shadowmoor to the extent that goyf will look like a fairly-costed dude, and won't make the cut in several green, even MONO green decks. I played against G/W hybrid.dec on MWS and wanted to kill myself. Turn one birds into turn two finks into turn three and four G/W liege and I was taking 7 a turn from a persistent Kitchen Finks. Rather die than play T2 while this set is legal.
As a cube player, I can easily say that Shadowmoor will have an impact in cube, as many of the hybrid cards can be played by several color combinations, effectively making your cube more fun to play with, as now both mono-white and blue control (or two color decks somewhere in between) can play swans and augury adept, ect. Upwards of 15-20 shadowmoor cards will be going in cubes across the country, so if you're a foil junky, get your foils soon while they're cheap/pack-cracking noobs don't know what they're worth. (caresses foil swans, adept, ect that I scored after watching idiots crack four CASES on release day)
Having played T4 before, I can say that Knacksaw Clique is easily one of the coolest dudes to have in your stack, with an ass that's bolt-poof.
I may be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure the most successful version of Belcher I have seen recently doesn't play Street Wraith, and does play D.Returns in the Board.
A Legend has been playing it for the past couple of months and has been on an awesome streak. I'm not saying that MM doesn't belong in some builds, I'm just saying that your reasoning is way off. It would be there to allow for Dart Rit to be much more easily castable.
Anyway....
I also believe that Faerie Macabre will see play. Against any combo deck with IGG it's chant proof and can ruin their day. It is also decent against decks like Loam. Not that this is going to make or break the card, but it can shrink a goyf or goose temporarily as a combat trick.
EPIC Syndicate
-My hero
-I don't think this one was a joke...
Aydunno. There are only few exciting cards in Shadowmoor...
1) Most exciting: Vexing Shusher. I like to compare this card to Countryside Crusher:
Before Morningtide, nobody (outside of the Netherlands) played Aggro Loam, although it was a good deck. Now it has raised in popularity and is nearly a deck to beat. Several other decks tried incorporating Crusher (43land, Goyf Sligh, ...), but it didn't work.
I predict that Shusher will have a similar impact. Replace "Aggro Loam" with "TES", "The Netherlands" with "Bryant Cook" and "43land, Goyf Sligh, ..." with "Goblins, other random deck that tries to play Shusher, ...".
2) Second most exciting: Painter's Servant. It's a combo that actually could work. Too bad that both cards pretty much suck on their own.
3) Third most exciting: Swans of Bryn Argoll. Meh. It's not that broken. I'd play Moon Thresh over Swan Thresh anytime.
4) Manamorphose. Street Wraith didn't change Belcher numbers signficantly, neither will Manamorphose. Maybe the deck's average Goldfish turn will decrease by 0.08. Nobody will notice. And other decks can't play that card.
Tattermunge Maniac - Crap. It's a horrible Kird Ape and Kird Ape is already bad.
Guttural Response - Crap. We have REB and Pyroblast.
Demigod of Revenge - I have no idea why anybody is considering to play him.
And that's it. The fact that the currently second most expensive card of the whole set is a hybrid of Gray Ogre and Wasteland pretty much sums it up. Absolutely not comparable to Lorwyn, which brought the awesomeness of Ponder, Thoughtseize and Gaddock Teeg. And created new deckbuilding strategies with Garruk, Jace and Hoofprints. And brought some creatures for (playable! non-goblin!) tribal decks like that merfolk or that faerie deck. Shadowmoor boosts one deck and creates two new archetypes. It's not horrible, but it's far from awesome.
Team SPOD[23:08:50] <@Anusien> You want me to actually test?
[23:09:02] <frogboy> I thought you already had
But not Prophetic Bolt proof. Which is an actual type 4 card.
The E.P.I.C. Syndicate: I mean, if they play a lullaby for babies they should at least play the Monster Mash when somebody dies.
Now i strongly disagree there. Lorywn brought a lot of stuff, but i see many decks that will run duress before they run thoughtseize, just because of that 2 life. Gaddock teeg is not that great of a card either (name at least 2 decent GW decks that Gaddock teeg won't ruin) and aside from very few garrucks, planeswalkers don't exist in legacy. Their too slow. Vexing Shusher will be a bigger impact than you give it credit for.
Oh, and gutteral responce is a good sideboard card for green when its not paired up with red.
Considering that about 70% of legacy decks run blue, i would mainboard Shusher, but maybe i wouldn't do 4.
Merged triple post. -J
Tarmogoyf can bite the FATTEST part of my ass.
I see your point about WoSM, and I guess I agree with some of it and disagree with some. The assumption that it will be played in Thresh is ridiculous. Even playing it in the board is a ridiculous idea, because Thresh needs a large graveyard to put any pressure on a deck like Ichorid, and Ichorid plays tons of answers to things like WoSM. Sure, it's decent, Ichorid will just bring in Ray of Revelation, and Thresh won't have any clock while Ichorid draws into a ridiculously nutty hand.
In Angel Stax, it will probably see play.
In UW Still, it will probably see play. However, that deck doesn't see play.
Name the other decks that runs W but not B and are in the top tier.
So if a card can be answered, we shouldn't play it? I don't like that arguement. Also, Wheel only affects one player of your choice so you can still beat down with your Goyf and Goose.
I really think Runed Halo and Wheel will give Enchantress another push. It needed combo hate (Runed Halo) and it needed help with sweepers (Wheel). It is already a really strong deck and is getting stronger cards to prevent it from being hated out.
Whoa, what? I guess I just suck at this game. In that, Wheel will see some play, I guess. It will be included in UGw Thresh, Stax, and UW Landstill. That's about all I see, but I guess that's decent.
I thoguht the same thing at first and was hesitant to put it into Enchantress because after they Deed, they get Deed back. Then I read it and came!
Now I need to pick up a set. Damn!
Nitpick: Stax won't play Wheel of Sun and Moon, because Stax has little to no use for graveyard hate - every yard-based deck out there can be hated better with more synergistic tools (taxing for Ichorid, Chalice+Ring+Field for Aggro Loam, and pretty much everything in your deck for Breakfast)
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
I am with Nihil on this one. Wheel just doesn't make sense in Stax. Now, if they had a nice enchantment that helped you draw cards (and was white) that would be a lot more likely to pop up in Stax.
Team Multi-Grain - We're wholesome.
Like Pursuit of Knowledge?
Total combo with Sylvan Library.
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