noOriginally Posted by Richard
I wonder how it feels to be bored.
-Jhoira, artificer
Augury Adept might see play somewhere in some build of MUC, and I will probably fiddle with it more out of amusment than anything else, but I doubt it will be good, as Smog so aptly put it.
I have at times flirted with devoting 11 cards to anti-red (7 BEBs, 4 Chills). As far as the other slots, I've experimented on Cryptic Command as a good SB all rounder. It can come in against Control and Mid-Range crap when you don't want certain things you've got MB. On the other hand, it's still cumbersome as hell and I don't really like it's "jack of all trades, master of none" thing.
On the other hand, the reason I think 11 anti-red might be warranted has nothing to do with Shusher, which is a stupid Red-Herring anyway. We don't run enough counterspells to be unduly bothered by Shusher (at least in my builds), and he can still be removed by Powder Keg or comandeered with Shackles. In builds with a heavier counterspell count Shusher might warrant further worry, but I don't have that problem in my builds.
Hi guys,
I am a new guy joining the discussion. Hope you don't mind :)
So... I always liked MUC, since I started playing it in OLD Extended (when FoW was still Extended legal) and now I am trying to run it in Legacy. My metagame has UGb Thresh, Aggro Loam, Enchantress and Ichorid. As you may see, it's mainly aggro.
However, I think that this deck can perform ok in an aggro metagame. Here is my list and I hope that you can help me out :)
1 Meloku, The Clouded Mirror
1 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Fact or Fiction
1 Forbid
4 Brainstorm
1 Capsize
3 Back to Basics
4 Counterspell
1 Misdirection
3 Powder Keg
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
16 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
Any tips? Thanks!
No Propaganda maindecked in an aggro meta = many, many losses. I would personally go for a 12 counter/12 board control/10 card draw/2 win con. split. MD bounce typically isn't needed if you have sufficient board control permanents.
Keep your manabase
4 FoW
4 CounterSpell
4 Spell Snare
3 B2B
3 Propaganda
3 Engineered Explosives (or Powder Keg if you're playing 24 Islands)
3 Vedalken Shackles
4 Brainstorm or Ancestral Vision
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Impulse
1 Morphling
1 Meloku/Oona/Rainbow Efreet/whatever.
Hey guys! I found this in a different thread but ah well its worth a shot.
How about we replace our kill conditions with Izzet Guildmage and play 4 maindeck cunning wish.
Izzet is good with ancestral visions. (have to splash r)
but most importantly it can instantly win the game with reset. All you need is 6 mana and you can go infinite. Then copy a draw spell untill you simply draw your deck and play another wish for the win.
total slots:
8
+might want to add some more cantrips or remand as a counter.
But keep in mind this gets around alot of removal and all of the pieces are useful outside of the combo.
High score..what does that mean? Did I break the game?
Is 14 board control cards too many?
I've personally been having success with this build in an aggro heavy meta...
4 FoW
4 CounterSpell
4 Spell Snare
3 Powder Keg
3 Back to Basics
4 Propaganda
4 Vedalken Shackles
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Fact or Fiction
2 Morphling
24 Island
Extripate is no where near as common as you guys make it out to be and even when it is, getting Morphing into the yard is damn near impossible. I usually beat my opponents by stealing their own creatures with Shackles anyways so I have honestly never ever lost a game because I ran out of win conditions.
Honestly, there is no reason to run a creature inferior to Morphling (which every alternative creature is) just because you fear Extripate.
My main concern is if I should be playing more counterspells. Mana Leak is no near as bad a card as you guys make it out to be.
Pernicious Deed is the entire reason why I do not run a full set of Morphlings as my kill condition, otherwise I would. In a build like mine, which lacks counter power, it is very easy to find myself with no way to win against a Landstill player who has landed one Deed too many, hence the inclusion of the completely unkillable Rainbow Efreet. If you don't expect a lot of Deeds then by all means run nothing but Morphlings as your kill condition.
I'm going to pretend Izzet Guildmage wasn't suggested, because I'd like to think the reason why adding two cards that suck (and take up a full 5 more slots than just running a normal kill condition) would be obvious.
Anyway, in an aggro heavy meta run the full set of Propagandas and Powder Kegs/Engineered Explosives. Shackles does not need to be a 4 of, but at least two is an absolute necessity, and at least 3 Back to Basics are needed as well. Beyond that, Forbid, Misdirection, and Capsize all suck, so those should be replaced by something that doesn't, in fact, suck. What that actually ends up being is totally up to you, but it could be anything from the Propagandas your list so desperately needs to further draw spells.
Throwing that one out again: does Curse of Chain tempt MUC players? It's as good spot removal as MUC has ever seen.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
I will try it and let you know when my playset arrives tom. But I'm not impressed. For the same two casting cost, you are just one mana away from playing Shackles which is far superior. The same two casting cost is enough for Keg which is usually better against aggro as well.
If there is a creature you wanted to stop early so desperately, you're better off just countering it.
I agree with absolutely every thing else in your post except for the above statement.
Honestly... in an aggro heavy meta... why NOT run 4 Shackles?
It is far and away without question the most broken card in the deck, more so than Fact or Fiction even if you're talking about aggro.
It lands turn three and usually manages to steal their biggest creature turn 4 to use as a blocker. Then you block with it, get it killed and steal another one.
Against aggro, if you don't see a propaganda asap, Shackles is the difference between winning and losing. Keg is too slow in my opinion. It comes out turn two, but this means you didn't get to counter anything that turn. And you don't get to blow up cards like Sea Drakes, Negators etc till turn five which is too late.
So I would prefer to run 4 Shackles and 3 Keg than vice versa. Shackles in never dead in multiples against aggro either. And it's actually neccesary if they play Krosan Grip type effects.
Even propaganda is just a temporary stop gap. It stops an early creature cold but is near useless by the late game. Shackles is a permanent solution.
Because they're slow, far worse in multiples than you let on, and can be easily dug for when you need one. Drawing one early game is like a mulligan at times, and it cannot be relied on as the first line of defense against aggro due to its cumbersome nature. That is why 4 are not necessary, no matter how aggro dense your metagame is.
So, in short, the reason why Shackles is not necessary as a four of is because you do not want one on turn 3, or even 4, most of the time. In fact, I usually don't even want them on turn 5, although it can be necessary at times. They are an exceptional late game tool, but as a late game option you do not need four of them to make them effective.
It does, and I am experimenting with it, but it will probably require a totally new deck to accomodate it, as I said earlier. I'll post my findings later when I finish screwing around with it.
Why nobody plays Flow of Ideas?
It's a great card in this deck. I use it instead if fact or fiction couse on the turn 4 i dont have much stress and many threats so on turn 6 i draw 6 cards and win the game. Or if later then draw 10-14 cards often.
It's a six costing sorcery that doesn't flat out win you the game.
Kadaj,
How is drawing Shackles against aggro a mulligan at times? I would happily keep a decent opening hand with even two Shackles in a heartbeat.
It's a five casting cost Control Magic whose cost can be paid over two turns. But the massive advantage is, it completely reusable.
I win more games beating down my opponents with their best creature thanks to Shackles than I do beating them down with Morphling.
I am curious to hear other people's experiences with Shackles in aggro metas.
Sanguine, Re: Flow of Ideas
Actually, it does flat out win you the game if it resolves. It actually doesn't sound bad.
If it was an instant, I would run it in a heartbeat.
Even as a sorcery, it probably warrants experimentation.
I can't justify running more than two due to the high casting cost.
So I will probably try out a 2/2 split with Fact or Fiction.
I think that there is much more important question then draw engine in this deck. I used to play with different kinds of threshold decks and the main problem is mangoose!!! and sometimes mystic enforcer. So only powder keg helps against mongoose but they have many answers on it - needle, grip, stifle,counters... Big creatures like enforcer can be stoped by sideboard curse of chain but what to do with mongoose?
Good to hear somebody else is thinking along the same lines. Most decks can't compete with massive card advantage. But don't run Flow of Ideas. Anything not instant is bad. I've been using Opportunity. It costs the same, is an instant, and draws you enough cards to make it worth it. Here's my draw configuration right now:
4x Fact or Fiction
4x Ancestral Vision
2x Opportunity
Every card nets me staggering card advantage and draws me into permission, board control, and win conditions.
Shackles is a mulligan at times because it's slow as fuck. You cannot rely on it as your first line of aggro deterant because it doesn't do anything until turn 4, and that requires you tapping out on turn 3. I don't really know how you've managed to win by beating people down with their own creatures, which is something I think I've managed to pull off once or twice in something approaching 1000 games of testing and actual tournament play.
Usually the board developes into this huge stall with my opponent having 2 or 3 creatures out but being unable to attack due to Propaganda and B2B locking down their mana, and then I finish them off one with one of the various fliers.
Seriously, I don't know about you, but paying 3 mana to do nothing on turn 3 doesn't sound like a good plan against goblins to me. Especially since it will usually end up being turn 4 because of Port anyway, which makes it even shittier.
Don't get me wrong, I think Shackles is an amazing tool, it's just not worth 4 slots when it's so terrible early game. Yes, it's extremely potent in the mid to late game, but you don't need 4 slots for a mid to late game tool.
Ok. This is where I'm putting my foot down. There are some ideas that have merit, and some ideas that just suck, and Flow of Ideas is one of them. I would not invest 6 mana into a draw spell for ANYTHING. Period. I don't care what it is, it's not worth it. End of discussion. The fact that it's a sorcery makes it even worse. Hell, the card didn't even see play when it was legal in standard and there were plenty of blue control decks that were viable then. Why? Because it's a 6 mana sorcery that doesn't win you the game, contrary to what you might think. It might draw 6 cards, but that basically just means you have a full hand again, while your opponent gets a free turn to rape you because you tapped out.Sanguine, Re: Flow of Ideas
Actually, it does flat out win you the game if it resolves. It actually doesn't sound bad.
If it was an instant, I would run it in a heartbeat.
Even as a sorcery, it probably warrants experimentation.
I can't justify running more than two due to the high casting cost.
So I will probably try out a 2/2 split with Fact or Fiction.
Opportunity has the same issue. It costs 6 mana. Seriously people, 6 mana = very, very bad. With the exception of something like Yawgmoth's Bargain or Mind's Desire, neither of which are legal in Legacy, 6 mana cards aren't good in Eternal formats, and this is no exception. I have no idea why you want further card draw anyway, but I'd rather run Think Twice, which is terrible, or even Thirst for Knowledge, which is worse, over Flow of Ideas or Opportunity.
Well there goes my plan on unleashing my uber tech of Guile in a more counter heavy build onto the world.
Seriously though, I can think of plenty of six mana cards that are justifiable.
Even excluding the cards that cost you more than 6 mana in two turns to get into play, Akroma Fury, Exalted Angel etc...
Fairie Stompy can justify Shoreline Ranger. Yes occasionally he's used to get a land or pitch to Force, but he's mainly there to serve as an additional beater in a pinch.
Dragon Stompy can justify Razormane Masticore.
Train Wreck can justify Helldozer.
Even Guile I think is solid in more counter heavy versions of this deck.
Costing six over several turns isn't the same as costing six.Blue Stompy typically doesn't run Shoreline Ranger, and if it does, it's not for playing. "In a pinch" doesn't mean relied on.Dragon Stompy doesn't run Razormane Masitcore any more and it cost five.Train Wreck runs Cabal Coffers. It's mana works differently.
Hi Guys!
I've played around with an initial MUC build (never played the deck before).
I ended up with something like this:
Lands:
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
17 Island
1 Plains
-24
Critters:
1 Oona, Queen of Fae
1 Morphling
1 Guile
-3
Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Fact or Fiction
4 FoW
4 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Propaganda
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Back to Basics
2 Cryptic Command
-33
SB:
4 Chill
??
I like the fetchable Plains.. This way I can (obviously) blow EE @ 2. I don't like to add the Swamp since I'd like the U-mana instead and I think I'll rarely blow EE @ 3 (since I play Shackles, B2B and Propaganda).
Fetches are also for Brainstorm..
I'd like to try out Ancestral Vision, but It's lame to get both that and Spell Snare in your opening hand (especially if you're on the draw..).
I'm not sure about CC, but I'd like to try them as 2-of. They look awesome for the mid-late game.
I'm concerned whether or not FoF is to little actual draw. Should I find something else for the Spell Snare-slot, and then replace Brainstorm with Visions?
Hope to get a comment on the list. It seems like this deck has alot of uncertain slots (atleast more than other T1.5 decks..).
MEMENTO MORI!
Danish Legacy Addict
Nobody plays Exalted Angel without a way to speed it up significantly (Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors and Chrome Mox) and no one runs Akroma Angel of Fury or Razormane Masticore at all.
At any rate, as I've said many times, Cryptic Command is awful in the Maindeck, and it's equally awful in the SB as my experimentation has proved recently. It's slow, not particularly good at anything, and highly vulnerable to all sorts of stupid disruption that you'd usually be able to avoid.
I think you need to stop worrying about having Spell Snare and Ancestral Vision in your opening hand. Ancestral Vision is not bad at all if you can't suspend it on turn 1, and more often than not I just suspend it on turn 1 in that situation anyway. Unless I know my opponent has the potential to drop something stupid like Dark Confidant, in which case I'd sit back on Spell Snare.
I still maintain that using Fetchlands to make Brainstorm not suck is a bad idea, because running Brainstorm makes it very hard to find room for more actual draw spells, on top of the fact that I haven't changed my position on Brainstorm not being that good in MUC anyway, which is evidenced by the fact that I have yet to see a decklist in this thread that contained both Brainstorm and 6+ actual draw spells. I'm sure it is doable, but it's such a pain in the ass to find room for everything, on top of all of the vulnerabilities of having fetchlands in the first place and the fact that I think Powder Keg is better than EE anyway, and fetchlands become an unnecessary risk.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
