[Deck] Armageddon Stax

[Silverdragon]

So I'm not sold completely yet on the duskrider and mindcensor in the sb. Duskrider has mostly been there tombstalker, and the fact that I've still never seen a deed hit him. Mindcensor has its good points and bad ones. Its great for hours of fun against fetches, survival, combat tricks, and getting threats into play against control. It just seems like I should be running somethign better, but have yet to find someting that fits.

I'd suggest either Karmic Justice or Pithing Needle if you are not satisfied with the creatures in your sideboard. Or you could run additional lands so you can increase your landcount after boarding for matchups where you might need to Geddon more than once.
Defense Grids for the times you do play against control or aggro-control might also be a good option but I don't know how common Landstill and the like are in your meta.
The 25 land including 2 Tabernacle concernes me a bit. Maybe you should cut an Oblivion Ring or a Tabernacle for one more manaproducing land (Flagstones no.4) to go up to 24 manaproducing lands. Oh and you should definitely cut a Muse for the 4th Ghostly Prison. 1 mana makes a huge difference against a good Goblins draw (also not being a creature is very valuable preboard).

@Darksteel Citadel
Between 4 Mox Diamond, 4 Crucible, 4 Flagstones (and the option to play a land from your hand after Armageddon sometimes) it has been a long time since I've seen a Magus die because I couldn't pay the upkeep. Darksteel Citadel might help you get back in the game faster after a Geddon or even let you ignore the Geddon completely but imho it is not needed. I'd rather have a Factory or Wasteland instead.

[Cait_Sith]

Citadel, Wasteland, and Factory and do have have problems with colored mana at all.

Why NOT run Citadel? It survives Armageddon to allow for a greatly speeded recovery. It has a very insignificant drawback.You stand to gain more than you stand to lose from it.

[Silverdragon]

Now you've got me interested Cait_Sith. Can you post your manabase or your complete decklist because I always struggle with what to take out for the various lands.
For reference here's what I think should always be part of the manabase:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones (yes I think running only 3 is a mistake)
6 Plains

That's 18 lands so far. Now you have 7-8 slots left at most. Normally I play 2 more Plains (especially when I have 3 Exalted Angels and Oblivion Rings maindeck), 2 Wastelands and 3 Factories. The 26th land could be Tabernacle.
With Darksteel Citadel I'm assuming you play 2 of them instead of the additional Plains which is not an option for me because even with 8 Plains I get colorscrewed more often than I'd like.
So the other option (for me at least) would be to cut either Factory/Wasteland or Exalted Angels (reducing the need for white mana so I can then cut Plains). Maybe it's just me being unlucky with colorscrew but anyway as I said I'd rather take Wasteland number 3 and 4 or the last Factory before I'd add a Citadel.

[Melwis]

Now you've got me interested Cait_Sith. Can you post your manabase or your complete decklist because I always struggle with what to take out for the various lands.
For reference here's what I think should always be part of the manabase:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones (yes I think running only 3 is a mistake)
6 Plains

That's 18 lands so far. Now you have 7-8 slots left at most. Normally I play 2 more Plains (especially when I have 3 Exalted Angels and Oblivion Rings maindeck), 2 Wastelands and 3 Factories. The 26th land could be Tabernacle.
With Darksteel Citadel I'm assuming you play 2 of them instead of the additional Plains which is not an option for me because even with 8 Plains I get colorscrewed more often than I'd like.
So the other option (for me at least) would be to cut either Factory/Wasteland or Exalted Angels (reducing the need for white mana so I can then cut Plains). Maybe it's just me being unlucky with colorscrew but anyway as I said I'd rather take Wasteland number 3 and 4 or the last Factory before I'd add a Citadel.

Glad to see someone else going with 4 Flagstones :) It seems solid.

However, could you (or someone else ofc) tell me what is the awesomness with Oblivion Ring? =)

[Melwis]

I hope my question isn't to dumb lol =P

[Arsenal]

It's semi-permanent, versatile removal that has a mana cost that plays nicely with our manabase. Overall, pretty nice to have in your SB for any matchups that have problematic, all-in strategies.

[Noman Peopled]

I've done some further testing with Mistveil Plains if anyone's interested, and you guys were right - mostly. I've found that against deck that can a) seriously meddle with your permanent base (anything red, red/green basically, with honorable mentions to Deed/Explosives) and b) lay down a lot of permanents itself (Goblin tokens, Loam/Crucible or whatever, with ETW and Dredge being exceptions due to speed) it does hold its own.
However, seeing as I want to sideboard Suppression Field against Goblins, that leaves Loam, which can be adequately adressed with the proper card choices as well, without making myself more vulnerable to Wastes, even if it's only a bit. (As a sidenote, Countryside Crusher vs mana denial and Ghostly Prison = :D :D :D

@ Oblivion Ring
O-Ring is great because it covers one of Stax' weaknesses, that being its inability to deal with problem permanents. Stax is designed to work through multiple effects stacking up - sometimes the deck just doesn't click the way it has to to deal with a particular permanent. Despite the multitude of lock effects, there's all kind of things that can go wrong, especially if your opponent has access to Ancient Grudge or Shattering Spree postboard or if your draw craps out on you.
For example, I have lost quite a few games because I didn't draw Armageddon in time and Smokestack wasn't enough, or because I wasn't able to destroy my opponent's Moxen. I got beat by a single Jaya and two lands once. I just didn't draw what I needed to upkeep her to death and had already taken grief from Tomb.
Prior to [whatever set O-Ring was in] I was sideboarding Faith's Fetters which has its advantages (can be played ony anything to gain life or shut down a land's ability) but doesn't cover the weak spot as well, imo - it leaves static abilities (Wheel of Sun and Moon) and triggers (Ancient Runes, I guess? oh, I once got beat by a random Boggart Shenanigans) untouched.

Also, I' d be interested where those of you who have Ravages of War bought theirs. Other than ebay. (Fell free to PM me rather than cluttering up the thread.)

[Melwis]

Summons(5):
--------------
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Windborn Muse

Sorceries(5):
--------------
3 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War

Enchantments(5):
-------------------
3 Ghostly Prison
2 Oblivion Ring

Artifacts(20):
---------------
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Trinisphere
2 Smokestack
2 Tangle Wire

Lands(25):
------------
6 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 Crystal Vein

This is what I think my Armageddon Stax will look like but ofc I will listen if you think something is wrong with it. After understanding how Oblivion Ring works I realise it is key once you decide to throw Smokestack out. But the thing I like about it the most (which has been stated) is that it takes care of random single permanents that the deck can have a hard time with otherwise.

Before I was running 24 lands and it didn't seem to be enough (unlucky?) and so I decided to add another one. I hardly think it will be negative for the deck because it is crucial that you dont miss a single land drop the first 2-3 turns imo. This could really be the difference of getting or losing control in a match. As you can see i'm running 3 Crystal Veins which some of you might not agree with but I really think it deserves it's place. Maybe not as a 3-of but atleast 2. Even if you have to sac it in the start it could power out a 3cc spell which will probably turn out better in the match overall.

I am eager to try Tangle Wire in the deck. It seems solid to me atleast. Not more than 2 tho because to throw it out on turn 1-2 won't make the most use of it. It has a rather funny bonus usage to it aswell (i'm not sure it's good tho lol) and that is to tap Trinisphere with it if you want to throw out a Mox during mid/late game for some special reason.

In my previous list I had 6 Geddons and it seemed a bit to much. You really don't want/need to cast more than 1 each game and therefore I think 5 copies should do since you won't be casting them during early game. After Geddon you got Wasteland should your opponent topdeck to many lands.

Things I am not sure about in the list:

- Windborn Muse
- 2 Smokestacks (Could be 3 but it usually doesn't get useful until late game to throw in the final lock)

I also think Mishra's Factory is a bit interesting. If I didn't use Muse I would probably go with 4 Magus + 2-3 Mishra's.

Any toughts on the list and everything I have mentioned is appreciated big time!

[Arsenal]

Tangle Wire is like Trinisphere 4-8 to me. If powered out turn 1, it shuts down the game for a few turns, with your opponent feeling the effects more than you (hopefully). After turn 3, it's effectiveness is dampened, even more so than a post-turn 3 Trinisphere (Brainstorms costing 3 mana on turn 4 under a Trinisphere is still great, but not as great as turn 1 Trinisphere -> Time Walk for next 2 turns). But, there have been numerous arguments against as it makes the winnable matchups even more so, but doesn't do anything to help your unfavorable matchups significantly.

[Skeggi]

@The Wes: if you want to run a deck with more agains a high aggro meta, I still think Windborn Muse is too weak. Run 4 Ghostly Prisons, perhaps even throw in some Tundra's and add Propaganda. You should also look in to Peacekeeper.

@Caith Sith: I must say I hate match-ups with Darksteel Citadel. But on the other hand; I feel the 'traditional' lands are stronger. It might be a very good idea if you plan to run 6-8 Geddons.

@Silverdragon and Melwis: I hate 4 Flagstones, I think 4 is a mistake lol, but I guess we have to agree to disagree

@Melwis: Oblivion Ring is preferrably a sideboard card; however I still run them mainboard until I can get my hands on Ravages of War. Have a look at my list a couple of pages back, I still think it's a good list if you have no Ravages of War :)

@Arsenal: Tangle Wire has always been a nice addition to any Stax deck, but what would you replace it for?

[Melwis]

@Silverdragon and Melwis: I hate 4 Flagstones, I think 4 is a mistake lol, but I guess we have to agree to disagree

I think i'm actually going to cut one and add in Darksteel Citadel as a 1-of. The reasoning behind this is because I played 2 Exalted Angels in the deck not long ago (thus making me want as much white mana as possible). With Angels out I no longer need more than one white mana source in the field (which I think shouldn't be a problem) therefore i'm cutting one :)

P.S: I do think however that having 4 Flagstones and 1 Citadel would hardly count as something bad for the deck. Having these will turn your Armageddons into "Destroy target opponents lands" which is a good enough reason to include them yes?

Altough I might be overexaggerating just a little bit but still almost ;)

[georgjorge]

Sorry if it was already mentioned...anyone else here find Gaddock Teeg largely annoying for this deck ? No Stax, no Geddons, no Chalice...anything boardable except Oblivion Ring possible ?

[Melwis]

How many win conditions is considered to be optimal when running Stax? I mean, if everything turns out in your favor and you get your opponent locked down, there is really no difference in swinging for 2 every turn (Magus) or 4 (Angel).

Currently i'm thinking of going with 4 Magus's and 2 Mishra's (enough?)because with a Magus out I still only have to pay 1 mana even if I have Mishra in play aswell and Mishra + Crucible is sweet :)

[Nihil Credo]

@Georgjorge: Both Oblivion Ring and Powder Keg (standard SB fare) can take care of Teeg. Obviously, though, how many of them and what cards to take out depend on the deck that is running him.

A simple example: if it's UGW Thresh, you probably prefer Powder Keg so you can take out 'Goyfs and/or Mages as well (though, once they're out of FoW, you must have quite a bad draw in order to lose to just Teeg; if they have Teeg they almost definitely don't have Explosives). If it is, say, a green/white midrange deck, Oblivion Ring can deal with whatever random stuff they have (Vial, etc.). If 4C Landstill is boarding him, you probably should side Ring, and pray that you have a REALLY busted hand.

@Melwis: Exalted Angel isn't just a win condition, she is effectively a lock piece, as much as Ghostly Prison.

The premise of White Stax is to make it as costly as possible for the opponent to attack with his creatures (whether they're Goblins, Goyfs, or even Mishra's Factories). In that perspective, an Angel is like a Maze of Ith, more or less nullifying one attacker every time she swings - an especially desirable effect when the rest of your cards make it difficult for the opponent to attack with multiple creatures. Kor Haven works so well for the very same reason.

Synergy is key in Stax; currently the only maindeck cards that don't contribute to the "overtaxing" plan are Chalice of the Void (which is just too amazing with this mana base) and, if you want, Oblivion Ring (which can save you from random cards you hate to see, like opposing Crucibles - though personally, I still don't find it worth the slots). Every other card increases the price for your opponent to actually deal damage to you, and Angel is one of the best at that.

[Noman Peopled]

In that perspective, an Angel is like a Maze of Ith, more or less nullifying one attacker every time she swings - an especially desirable effect when the rest of your cards make it difficult for the opponent to attack with multiple creatures. Kor Haven works so well for the very same reason.

It's worth noting that even when she doesn't race or at least nullify creatures, she keeps you out of Tomb-related trouble. I've been on the lookout for other win conditions for like forever, even considering Oversoul very briefly, or at least lock pieces strong enough to more than balance her loss, but I've always returned to at least a duo of Angels. I've found you really can't go over the magic CMC of 4 because of Armageddon and City of Traitors (I was trying Voidstone Gargoyle at the time).

and, if you want, Oblivion Ring (which can save you from random cards you hate to see, like opposing Crucibles - though personally, I still don't find it worth the slots). Every other card increases the price for your opponent to actually deal damage to you, and Angel is one of the best at that.

I've found O-Ring to be increasingly effective the more random stuff comes up. I would put it in the side at best if I knew to expect only top tier variants. As you said, Stax makes it difficult for an opponent to attack in swarms, but if a local opponent is trying out Korlash or Reanimator, Powder Keg is underwhelming.
A similar thing is true should your local opponents sideboard heavily against you, especially Serenity, Sacred Ground, and BWish targets.

[Gambit]

I took 8th out of 100 at the pt hollywood side event, here's a real quick report:

My list:
Maindeck:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Mishra's Factory
6 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Wasteland
2 Exalted Angel
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Armageddon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere

Sideboard:
3 Defense Grid
3 Tormods Crypt
3 Humility
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Suppression Field

Notice: No O-rings; this deck can't trade 1 for 1, My sideboard was pretty awsome all day, I almost always sided out angels. I think I did 20 damage only one game all day while the rest were locked oppenents scooping.

Round 1; Italian pro playing Fetchland Tendrils
G1: As we shuffle I see a tendrils, I win the roll and open with chalice at 0 (felt a little like a bitch becuase I knew he was playing combo or I would have opening chalice @ 1) + crucible with a wasteland in hand. He can't do too much with out his explosive 0 drops and I eventually stick some more lock pieces after I geddon away his few basics that he fetched.

G2: On the play I have a turn 1 3-sphere that is duressed away, I believe I drop a t-crypt and a chalice at 0. He ramps up with dark rits and threshed cabal rits baiting my crypt, I don't bite and he goes to IGG, I crypt response (at this point he has about 6 mana floating) he says ok, IGG resolves he discards his hand (infernal tutor) returns it and tutors tendrils FTW.

g3: I get chalice at 0 followed by a bunch more lock pieces and keep him off any mana. He scoops.

1-0
2-1

Round 2: Fish
g1: This is such a good matchup as everything I cast is a bomb against him. I stick some stuff and eventually get smokestack to eat all his perminants.
g2: No sideboarding, same as game 1

2-0
4-1

Round 3: UWb Landstill
G1: I mull to 6 with a gassy 1-lander and a mox. If I can juuuuust rip a land....nope, not for 3 turns. But landstill doesn't have the fastest clock. I soon start drawing lands and after baiting some c-spells with a trinisphere etc, I stick a crucible and 'geddon. I win shortly after
g2: I side in defense grids, suppression fields, and seals of cleansing. I think a turn 1 defense grid is forced, but I do resolve one shortly after, it's too taxing on his manabase and I win soon after.
3-0\
6-1

Round 4: STAX mirror...shit
G1
He opens flagstones and I'm hoping for death and taxes or white weenie or shit anything else. I open land, mox, chalice at 1. He plays E. Explosives and blows up my mox and chalice. A battle over resolving a crucible and keeping it on the table occurs and he eventually wins the battle and I scoop as I can't keep anything on the board.
g2: I side in seals of cleansing and tormods crypts. I come out strong with a very quick crucible and smokestack. He however has return to dust to kill both of them, who plans for the mirror? He sticks a crucible and some white spellshaper that is discard a card destroy target artifact or enchantment...shit. He exausts his hand and 'geddons. Next turn with no lands I drop crypt and activate taking all his land. He still has the advantage and does eventually win anyway.
3-1
6-3

Round 4: UGb Thresh
g1: I stick a trinisphere and do what this deck does against thresh, smash it.
g2: I resolve a geddon, but he has to dark confidants on the table, they do 20 damage to him as I have a ghostly prison out and he can't swing for a few turns. However, he did beat me down to 2 and the following turn would kill me, he was at 6 and revealed FOW and thirst for Knowledge of the confidants...awsome.

4-1
8-3

Round 5: Dragon Stompy
G1: He plays turn 1 magus of the moon. Eh, my turn 1 trinisphere wouldn't have been that good anyway. He then drops a morph (raiders) and another magus. I just can't find the right pieces and he beats for the win

g2. My hand is awsome, Magus of the T, g-prison, geddon and enough mana to make it happen. I let him resolve a couple threats then drop magus and geddon. He loses his board and can't recover.

g3: We both mull to 6, he exausts his hand for turn 1 Pit Dragon. I play nothing and pass, he beats for 10, I drop suppression field, he beats me to 2. I drop g-prison and lose.
4-2
9-5

Round 6: French Pro with Belcher
This is an old school belcher build with no ETW.
G1: He is on the play and opens with turn 1 land grant revealing some gas and Spoils of the vault, I joke with him about spoiling for 20, he fetches a bayou. My turn I drop wasteland and waste it, in response he spoils for belcher, revealing 20 cards...GG.
G2: He still has no idea what I'm playing and drops a turn 1 birds of paradise and a LED. I play turn 1 chalice at 0 and something else. Eventually I get a 3-sphere on the board and am beating with a factory. He draws his bayou to get to 3 mana and plays welder. Soon he begins welding out my chalices and 3 spheres for mox diamonds. He goes off and wins.
g3: I have turn 2 3-sphere and risk that he won't win turn 1 as his build seems slower. I doesn't do much and I drop turn two trinisphere. I soon drop chalices, 2 suppression fields, crucible, and lots of other locks. He scoops.
5-2
11-6

Round 8 Bomberman
g1: I have been complimenting him all day on playing bomberman as It's a deck I really like. I drop some lock pieces and a trinisphere followed by a geddon and a smokestack, he scoops.
g2: He keepers into darksteel collosus. I have the magus and geddon in my hand, I drop magus with 4 mana available, get beat for 11, need to rip a land off the top or die, I die.
g3: too many lock pieces and 3 geddons later I finally deal 20 damage.
6-2
13-7

I take 8th place out of 98 which nets me 6 packs of shadowmoor.

[Arsenal_Fan]

Great Job Gambit. What are your thoughts on your sideboard and the singleton Horizon Canopy? Would you make any changes to the sideboard or do you feel that it is optimal for a random metagame?

[Gambit]

Great Job Gambit. What are your thoughts on your sideboard and the singleton Horizon Canopy? Would you make any changes to the sideboard or do you feel that it is optimal for a random metagame?

Sideboard was awsome all day, I was expecting more landstill which was giving me fits with deeds during playtesting, so a lot of my board was for battling that. Humilitys came in against D-stompy, but I never drew one. I sided in suppression fields a bunch and really liked them. I often sided out the 2 angels and just went for the lock.

The one of horizon canopy was good all day, I basically just cycled it each time I got it out, with a crucible it can be great as recurring draw. At this point, it stays.

[Misplayer]

Gambit, congrats on the finish. You mentioned you don't like going 1-for-1 with O-Rings but you're willing to do so out of the side with Seal of Cleansing. Your list is tight though and I would agree it looks optimal for an unknown meta, seeing how you run 4 each of cards that wreck aggro (Magus, Ghostly Prison) and likewise for combo (3sphere, Chalice). I think in a more known metagame you could tune the list to fit the Oblivion Rings. Trading 1-for-1 is worth it when their 1 is a bomb (e.g. Tombstalker, Dreadnought, opposing Crucibles, Deed if played without mana to activate open). But hey, your results speak for themselves.

[Arsenal]

Gambit, I noticed some unorthodox card choices that your opponents played; Fetchland Tendrils & Duress, Stax (mono-white presumably) & Engineered Explosives, and UGB Thresh & Thirst for Knowledge (they run enough artifacts to support this?). What other things did you notice re: opponent card choices?