You are mistakenly assuming that Earwig Squad is going to consistently hit the board either on turn two or for its prowl cost at all in any matchup besides combo. Squad is an awful maindeck replacement for Piledriver, who can come out for a singleand finish the game with a chief out, and who is generally amazing at finishing off an opponent.
Originally Posted by majikal
Piledriver tends to be a big reason Goblins is still able to keep up right now. He is one of the big enablers for consistent wins before turn 5. I can agree that his usefulness isn't what it used to be, but there is no real reason to cut him out of decks entirely. Maybe running 3 would be good.
Honestly, Earwig CAN be bigger and CAN be better, but winning on turn 3 is BEST among them all. I wouldn't readily give that up.
Oh, the third turn kill can use 2 Drivers, or a Driver and a SGC. With 3 SGC, 4 Driver, and 4 Warchief, I can pull it off roughly 1/5 games. That is enough alone to justify it.
Edit: Whoa. I didn't even notice Tacosnape has posted. My internet is being dumb. Listen to Taco.
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I agree on the most part, but this specific build even lacks the basic disruption that a goblin player usually has, like the green splash for TSH in the main & Grip in the board.
Whoa I had no idea you could do that. That kicks ass. But I agree with Tacosnape that he's not gonna always come down turn 2 and swing turn 3.
I love Piledriver, but the fact that he requires other goblins to be good makes me sad. Like post-Pyroclasm. He's not a bad goblin. He's just a bad goblin when he's a lonely goblin. Squad may be SB tech in some cases, but I don't think he needs to be in the MD.
THis is just a reccomendantion but has anyone made a five color goblin deck?
I was thinking confidant goyf swords and wishes any thoughts?
If the core just seems to be lackey piledriver +goblins is there enough space to change it?
You're new here, so I'ma be nice. 28 is the absolute bare minimum of goblins you can run, otherwise Ringleader is worthless. Please don't suggest horrible ideas again. Thanks.
The only problem is that you will be adding so many non goblins that your draw card (ringleader) will be weakened for each non goblin card played.
I tested earwig a good bit, for me (at least in my meta) he hindered me more than helped. The fact you can't swing with him the turn he comes out (assuming you want to use that sweet prowl ability) is a pretty big hinderance. Thats just my opinion based on the tournies I play in.
Wort was interesting, but very few games was I able to really have her pull me through. Not many people let me keep her out long. Being a 4 cast she either takes a ringleader or sgc spot. I'm currently not running her, but I would say I'm somewhat on the fence about her. She is an immediate threat, one of which my oponents tend to take out asap.
IMO Wart is a very useful card if dropped at the right time. Late game, I do not really care about him because ut us usually too late.
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I will probably get shouted for mentioning him but I have to
Goblin Goon?
He is BIG. And if I, let's say, have 1 Goon, 1 random goblin and 1 Piledriver i'm swinging for lots of damage even if my opponent can chump block one of them. I'm not considering running 4 copies of him but perhaps 2-3?
And I really don't understand why people are ditching Piledriver(s) =/
Sure, he gets removed alot. But, that is because your opponent HAS to remove him. He easily swings for 5 early game and if you are allowed to and get enough goblin drops, in mid game he can swing for over 10+. If you don't run him your are allowing the opponent to start focusing on other goblins (namely Warchief) which will probably mean GG for you.
Seriously, Piledriver has to stay. Perhaps (and I really mean perhaps) you can go with 3 Drivers in the BR version of goblins. But in my mono-red i'm keeping 4 :)
You think someone will ever chump block a Piledriver? One blocker with power of 2 or a fanatic is enough to prevent his damage and kill him. I wouldn't bother chump blocking a goon either. If you want to cancel his damage trade him with one of your creatures otherwise just take the damage and kill off his friends.He is BIG. And if I, let's say, have 1 Goon, 1 random goblin and 1 Piledriver i'm swinging for lots of damage even if my opponent can chump block one of them. I'm not considering running 4 copies of him but perhaps 2-3?
He's also pretty bad after a pyroclasm and the likes.
But before I splashed black I ran Stingcourgers instead of Weirding and 2 Goons instead of 2 Worts. Goon can hit hard with a bit of luck and he has a nice body vs Goyf. But I liked Stingcourgers more than I liked the Goons.
I think Frogtosser Banneret and Mutavault need to be given more serious consideration for goblins. I've found both to be very good in my testing. Right now I'm testing 3-4 mutavaults in place of Rishadan Ports/mountains, and 4 tossers in place of fanatics.
Yes, I realize fanatic is good, when you can actually use him to kill a 1 toughness creature, which doesn't seem to happen all too frequently for me as of late. Frogtosser, on the other hand, is ALWAYS good. Especially versus control, frogtosser provides another creature that needs to be countered or dealt with quickly or they'll be in trouble. Add to that the fact that mutavault is also very good versus control, and the addition of these 8 cards theoretically helps in the control matchup considerably. I haven't done enough testing versus a variety of control decks to be certain, but I've found my matchup versus my UGw ***** deck has gotten noticeably better since the inclusion of frogtossers and mutavaults.
One issue, however, with the inclusion of frogtosser is it forces you to run a number of Auntie's Hovels. Which means your mana base is a bit more complicated, as it's hard to fit everything you want in the deck. I'm still undecided on what the ideal mana base would be, and I'd be interested to hear others' opinions on the subject.
Also, on an unrelated note, I'd like to see a bit more discussion about the number of "big" creatures (Siege-Gang Commander, Wort, Boggart Auntie, Earwig Squad, Goon, etc) is the optimal amount to run in goblins; and in what combination. Personally I've really liked Wort, but generally it's better to tutor for ringleader, which is why I've been running 2-3 Worts in my builds as of late. This way I can simply draw in to Wort, or tutor for a ringleader and hit one, rather than tutoring for it directly.
The frogtosser issue has been beat to death, but I will say that I feel like mana disruption is superior to beats right now in Goblins, so Port > Mutavault.
The optimal number of big goblins, IMO, is 3 SGC, 1 Wort. That's what I play at least, and it's strong.
That's funny because doesn't Frogtosser make certain that you have more mana free to use port?The frogtosser issue has been beat to death, but I will say that I feel like mana disruption is superior to beats right now in Goblins, so Port > Mutavault.
Jesus fucking Christ. Frogtosser sucks. Why in god's name are we still having this conversation?
What the fuck are you going to cut for it? Warchief? You're retarded. Fanatic? You're retarded. Lackey? Still retarded. Siege Gang? You sat at the front of the short bus. You have two slots, at most, with which to play around with, and those are the utility slots (Sharpshooter/Tin-Street/Wort). And you know what? I'd much rather have my utility slots, you know, actually fucking do something.
Restating for emphasis- Frogtosser Bannaret sucks donkey balls and swallows that oh so creamy surprise ending.
QFT from 'tiny Jesus, in your golden fleece diapers' to the animal erotica.
Moving along from Frogtosser Bannaret, let's talk more about:
-Vexing Shusher
-Goblin Goon
-Boartusk Leige
-Or what ever happened to the girl from Matilda
Seriously though, is Shusher good against decks packing countermagic? Or is there enough stuff beween mana denial and Aether Vial? And is Goblin Goon worth running at all?
I remember some talk about Liege being tough to put in because of his triple colored mana requirement and 4cc. But with immunity to Pyroclasm and Bolt, he provides a solid "No" to UGr Thresh's Pyroclasm. Even as a single guy fetched through Matron and Ringleader, do you think he could fit here?
Or is there new Goblin tech that I'm just not bringing up that should be discussed?
Frogtosser does suck, and IMO, it's the Goblin Warchief for T2 gobs. Legacy succeeds with Lackey/Warchief/Vial. Frogtosser does not allow the Piledrivers to swing with insane damage on turn 3 with a bunch of gobs that Lackey/vials have dropped. The only reason if I ran Frogtosser would be if MTG involves playing a minimum 70 card deck, than a 60 card deck. We just have no space for the tossers right now.
In a build without access to 3-4 Piledriver, what would the correct substitution be? Goon? Perhaps More SGCs?
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There's no need:Moving along from Frogtosser Bannaret, let's talk more about:
-Vexing Shusher
-Goblin Goon
-Boartusk Leige
-Or what ever happened to the girl from Matilda
Al tough I think that Boartusk Liege should replace Mad Auntie in some builds. Of course you will have to pay the 3 colored mana but you'll get a much more resistant lord in return. But yes mad auntie can regenerate Piledriver etc.You have two slots, at most, with which to play around with, and those are the utility slots (Sharpshooter/Tin-Street/Wort). And you know what? I'd much rather have my utility slots, you know, actually fucking do something.
Yeah it's great how your opponents never do anything against that and how you can pull that off whenever you want! That's just as dumb as assuming that I can prowl Earwig you every time on turn 2.Frogtosser does not allow the Piledrivers to swing with insane damage on turn 3 with a bunch of gobs that Lackey/vials have dropped.
Jesus Christ.
Anyone who has played Goblins for more than 15 minutes knows that it is not a balls to the walls, standard aggro deck. You slowly build position over time - that's why Aether Vial/Ringleader > Lackey. And that's what lets you beat decks that don't suck.
The only true agro cards that are in this deck are Goblin Lackey, Warchief and Goblin Piledriver, and I would argue that they're less essential to the deck than Vial, Ringleader, and Matron. We don't need to up the count of cards that end the game fast but serve no other purpose - they especially don't do crap when you're losing. Even if I had 20 open slots in Goblins, I wouldn't play Frogtosser.
Shusher and Leige will probably prove to be unnecessary.
Truth.
However, this is a creature deck. Obviously. Opening yourself up even more to mass removal as Banneret makes you do is far more relevant than the points of damage that you can squeeze in with him (which is probably the last thing the deck needs).
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