Vial is a card that can be played only as 4-of or 0-of. Because it's a card that is needed on first turn or never. Plus, don't say that you can use your lands for mana, when we always can, even with rishadan port, and far more than you since we play 21/22 lands when you play only 18...
The thing I'd want you to explain more clearly is "how can your deck be more aggressive than my Ub one", for instance. You play less creatures, mutavaults apart and no equipment.
@maveric
Yes and as if others too has not spent hours playing with this deck. Run rishadan ports and wastelands? I don't know what kind of decks that you've been playing but I wouldn't mind having UU on turn 2. Running 8 colorless sources limits that from happening. Sure those lands works for goblins, but we run half of the amount of creatures goblin decks play.
I board sweeper and it is game. We do not have the same threat density as goblin's, they can recover at a rapid rate from a board sweeper unlike merfolks, and have more ways to get more.
Sure you can disrupt them all you want, and try to be cute with your wasteland + rishadan ports. But you said so your self, you want aether vial on turn 1 or never. So what? You'll agressively mulligan to find it? Especially with the drawing power that the deck lacks?
You still have not adressed the major problem the deck faces, aggro decks. Yet you're so quick to disregard other people's hours of play test, and simply try to say that your god awful decklist is better than ours? You do realize that aggro decks could care less about your wastelands and rishadans right?
It is all about the metagame, I focused more against the aggro matchups, piceli made his own adjustments based on what he/she plays. Do not be so quick on disregarding other people's opinions especially when they have been backed up with hours of play testing as well.
As a matter of fact, you we so quick to disregard one of my early builds (which yes, I can say due to its early form its lacking alot of things), but did not even pay attention to what was included. "Shapesharer" comes to mind?
Merfolks are new and needs alot of play testing. Were are not here to bash other people's decks, like what you've been doing. If you do not like the deck, keep in mind that it is designed on their own particular meta. If some cards seems questionable, ask why it is being run, and what result is it producing, and then ask for why would it be better to be run compared to so and so cards.
It is not set in stone, its is a new deck, and it has may challenges ahead of itself.
@ Piceli
Do you have AIM and or MSN messenger so we can play test different versions of the deck? Send me a PM if you're interested.
Ok. I first of all wanted to start a discussion. I don't want to bash Piceli particularly, but as I said, his deck is really badly built. About Zappa's deck, I think that it goes the wrong way (for instance, counterspells in a non full control deck is bad, because you don't want to keep UU opened), but at least it does not play random cards and it is quite consistent.
About the UU requirement, it's really the least of my problems. I only play lord of atlantis with this requirement, and it is a creature/card I want to play as late as possible. I admit that sometimes I may lack U on my third turn (I want to play a creature and keep U open for stifle), but it is usually not that much a problem. By the way Piceli plays only 1 additionnal blue provider with a far more U intensive build.
Something about board sweepers: they are usually expensive (and colour requiring) and can be disrupted by stifle. I eventually have 12 counterspells against them and I have 12 ways to prevent my opponent to find the mana. And as my build kills before turn 8, it's usually enough. If it's not the CA provided by confidant/silvergil may help to recover and to find the 4/5 dmgs that lack to kill my opponent. Once more, landstill is one of the best MUs of the deck, because LOA makes your guys unblocable, because often their mana bases are awful (easily disruptable) and because landstill is plain useless against merfolk. Actually I would play some if I could.
I don't aggressively mulligan to find vial. I just mean that a topdecked vial is a bad topdeck. I simply aggressively mulligan to find vial or a blue mana provider.
Against aggro decks, my strategy is jitte+propaganda (which are far better when you play 21 lands and 12 mana denials). But actually, I don't see the point. Gob is the only valuable aggro deck that could race merfolk (mostly because of problue of that damn mother****** pilly who can block the time to make an army and then make a single attack kill, still remember that you can stifle the +2X/+0 of pilly), and it's declining now. You may want to raise the goyfsligh MU. I'll be honnest, I did not test it, but I did not encounter any problem on MWS (even if I know that most players does not have the tournament level). Against stompy decks (FS and DS). They are very easy MUs. Because they need 2 resolved chalices (@1 and 2) to slow me down and because they are very sensible to mana denial. These MUs have been tested.
I missed shapesharer. I know you talked about it, and I've seen it only afterwards. I mentionned it if you did not notice. This card is exactly what needed the deck. At some point I even splashed green just to include tarmogoyf and to have a big guy on itself. Shapesharer can take the form of a big guy or can be used as another pumper. It's really one of the best creatures of the deck.
I don't state that 4 ports are absolutely needed, but they are often better than wasteland (against crucible/life from the loam for instance). I'm sticking with them. Those ports are not the only originality of my list.
Merfolk are not new to me. That may be the difference between us.
Ps: Finn, I deeply regret that you don't contribute more to the thread. Did you finally abandon the folks?
Originally Posted by Maveric78f
While I certainly agree that some of the recent lists in this thread have been suboptimal, and that your approach is perfectly viable, it certainly is not the only and best way to go. You say that you both tested a lot and independently came to the same conclusion. Well, Corrupted Angel and I also did a lot of testing (well, at least I did a lot of testing; I can't speak for him) and independently reached the same conclusion on the deck, that being one the eschews Vial, Port, and Stifle (He does run Waste; I don't) for CB/Top and B2B.
Think of it as the difference between Moon Thresh and Tempo Thresh. One just tries to disrupt the opponent and get in there for 20; the other plays the most powerful cards it has access to (Moon and CB/Top in its case, B2B and CB/Top in my case) to control the game and then finish it quickly with efficient beaters.
KillemallCFH > I completely agree with what you say. I guess that if we compare our MUs, your aggro control may be even better than it is already (it's alreayd very good with my list) but your control MUs should suffer a lot. If I look at your list though, I'm quite sure that some merfolks you play are bad: tidal warrior, probably cursecatcher too, seasinger, etc... Shapesharer would be good also for you as far as I can see, even if the instant power of vial makes it even more powerful. It looks like you may miss also some CA in your list, and as you want to play B2B, you can't splash black or play manlands/vials to play standstill. Maybe it's your main issue. Finally, I don't like the fact that you are exposed a lot to chalice@1.
I have to disagree having UU open while having Aether Vial in play, is very mind boggling for the opponent. The mind game that it plays does factor in, even if you do not have a counterspell in hand.
I strongly disagree with a splash of another color (confidant?). As one you open yourself up more for wasteland, and if not (if youre using polluted delta to fetch for swamp) adding a non-merfolk in a merfolk deck, thats easily killed due to its 1 toughness, is not even worth it. You'll also have less of a card to reveal for silvergil adept.
I chose to run mono blue with Mutavaults being the only colorless mana producing land. yes, I see that you do run propaganda, atleast sideboard to take care of aggro matchups. But I wouldn't could out goblins, not even close. Yes their numbers, may have dropped a little, but youre still very likely to come across them. That doesn't stop there, theres so many aggro decks that could care less for your wasteland + port.
X-land stompy, Suicide black, mono black aggro, golblins (already mentioned), mono white (ranging from weenie to sno-white), decks running goyf, counter sliver. Thinking about it now I'd also like to add affinity and ichorid in those lists, as those can be pretty fast and explosive.
I used to run propagandas as well but I find equipments to solve that problem, as well as the card draw from SoFI helps with our lack of card drawing.
In "my" meta I face alot of creature heavy decks, thats why I went with the build that I felt comfortable with. With a few control decks here and there, there was a combo player before but he rarely plays anymore. I find that SoFI and Jitte just wrecks those decks, much better than I did with propaganda + jitte out. It speeds up my clock so that they have little time to find for an answer. They also make my 1 drop merfolks relevant as I'll have little to fear on taking thier creatures head on or push them in the red zone... with or without the lords.
I never ever want to bash anyones builds as it can pretty much be a meta game, but at times some cards does seem questionable, but not to the point of utterly disregarding thier whole deck. Like with piceli I asked how did his thief help in his testing. Its a matter of play style.
You guys are comfortable with the disruption suit, denying them of thier mana sources (except this part is very irrelevant in my meta, thats why I do not run it). Some people feels comfortable on a controlling build. I just focus on dropping a creature, equip it and swing for the win with counter magic backing it up.
I am mainly focused on my aggro matchups, with some tools to fend of control, if I do bad against combo, then so be it. You can't win them all, thinking that you can, is just ridiculous.
You talked about board sweepers, and how you kept them from their mana. Which deck did you play against and which version? certain versions are more suited to handling certain match ups, so I'd like to know which. Landstill (Which combination)? Truffle Shuffle? Funkbrew?
Wasteland is one land for one land. And most of the time, I'm happy that someone wastes my lands (with no recursion of course), because I will probably be the one who will take the more advantage of the tempo. If your strategy is to land 1 creature, equip and swing, then you should not play tribal and play good creatures like serendib/tarmogoyf. I did that deck and it was awesome.
Maveric, considering that your list is almost wizard tribal, do you think Sage's Dousing has any potential at all?
I never counsidered it because I did not know the card. I'm not sure I'm gonna test it though because it requires to keep the mana openened.
yeah and considering you like to try to mimic things that the deck isnt and doesnt have the same capabilities, go play goblins. You can play your little little disruption suite as much as you'd like. I am sure youll enjoy it as well. Its a fun deck also.
Jitte and SoFI nets you card advatage, as well as having a great effect on the board. Speeds up your clock and makes your little guys relevant.
If you did not notice, I play jitte in all my deck (MD or SB). I know it's strong. But my game plan is rarely to play 1 creature at a time. Jitte is another way to get around fat guys, to get rid of annoying creature (dark confidant, MoR, grim lavamancer) and to gain life (against burn for instance). Swords are by far inferior to jitte in that kind of builds to my opinion, because they are not as much versatile.
Ps: Don't you think that my deck is different to gob? Looks like the only thing you see is rishadan port in my builds.
maveric, i was wondering: how do you face a turn 1 lackey if you don't hit a force of will in initial hand ? I thought it after having played with you. However, i noticed that the manlands and wastelands+ standstill is awesome, while i hadn't the occasion to see rishadan port much in action. I'm still curious to see how your deck works against tier1 decks, so i will try a bit your list.
Well, gob is a bad MU. I don't pretend the contrary. The most important is to mana deny them (with propaganda it's easier). You absolutely need to force their mana cheaters or you'll be dead. I think it's the same for your lists, since one can never rely on a 1 defense body to stop a lackey (fanatic/weirding/gempalm). So if I'm on the draw, I pray. If I'm on the play, I have quite a lot of answers (stifle on their fetches, daze, FoW, and any 2CC creature). Note that the jitte crazyness can work only if the gob player does not have already a piledriver into play (I will never repeat it enough, pilly a lame for my merfolk decks). In order to use jitte even with pilly out, I have shapesharer, confidant, faerie conclave, depending on the version. If gob is in your metagame, you definitely should not play merfolks but rather the fish version based on the same mana base.
When is the title going to be fixed? =P (Morningtide, not Monrningtide)
I wish I could contribute more to this discussion, but I haven't played the deck alot after SHM.. but I went T8 in a 23 people tournament, 22nd of March with this list: [I think it's mentioned earlier in this thread, but didn't get any feedback] I also added my thoughts.
Main: (60)
16 Island
4 Wasteland - wasn't as gamebreaking as they should be, I would like to try 4 Mutavault here, and go all in on the "aggro approach"
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Tidal Warrior
4 Grimoire Thief
4 Stonybrook Banneret - probably 3 Sygg, River Cutthroat (even tho I don't like his 1 power) and 1 extra land maybe
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Tidal Courier
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Daze - I would try 4 Cursecatcher here, not sure about this but I want Cursecatcher in this deck
4 Force of Will
4 AEther Vial
Sideboard: (15)
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Back to Basics - they didn't help me much, would rather have Pithing Needle to help vs Cephalid Breakfast / Belcher / other combo, Deeds and jank - (I really hate losing to combo)
2 Blue Elemental Blast - out
2 Hydroblast - also out, and add 4 Chill (since I like it better in the curve, I don't need to keep mana open, and it hoses Burn/Goyfsligh)
3 Seasinger - would change these to Stifle to hate Deeds, which hoses this deck more then Goyfs
As you can see my version is very aggroish.. Don't know if it's the best direction, but I like the feeling of playing 'Gobs' with FoWs, hehe
- Any of you people (hi Finn and Maverick78f) have any IRL / tournament experience with Merfolks they would like to share? =)
Last edited by Hightower; 05-14-2008 at 02:32 PM.
"I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize!"
I think I have 3 Stifle, 3 Port, and 4 Wasteland in my current build. I have kept 4-color Landstill off a color often enough that I consider it the primary path to virctory there in that matchup. I also routinely keep Threshold from playing any green spells for an entire game (well, except for Grip - the rest are all sorcery and prone to Ports).
Yeah, against thresh, the tech is to port the green producers and to waste the splash colour producers (white/black or red).
I did only 1 tourney with merfolks (it was in october I think) and I finished 10th on 45 people with a 4-2 record against very difficult MUs: solidarity (W, probably with luck), aggroloam (L, I completely screwed up in this match, doing 4/5 misplays), burn (W, with no problem), gob (L, even against a very weak opponent that did not draw after gempalms for instance, but with a good build that he borrowed), some random bad sliver deck (W) and ichorid (W). At this time my deck was really weaker than now (for instance, I was playing MD seasingers, aquitect's wills and tarmos).
I've been testing a straight speed version (no Vials, no LD, no CBalance+Top) and liking it...some comments:
Chrome Mox is nice in such a version, not sure if it's worth the disadvantage, but starting with a Lord is good.
Why haven't I seen people play Inkfathom Infiltrator so far ? Being unblockable even without Islands is crucial !
When not playing CBalance+Top, some additional anti-combo measure might be needed in the side. I'm trying out Thorn of Amethyst so far...
georgjorgeGeistreich sind schon die anderen.
I've been fooling around a lot with this version of the deck:
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Shapesharer
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Aether Vial
4 Disrupting Shoal (obviously these will become FOWs as I raise money)
4 Daze
4 Echoing Truth
3 Rushing River
21 Island
SB
6 Hydroblast / BEB
3 Seasinger
2 Swords
4 Heap Doll
After testing it, I found that card advantage is sorely needed, and I plan to cut an Echoing truth and a Reejerey for 3 Pulse of the Grid (singleton has performed brilliantly with Aether vial in play), and figure out what the last cut should be later.
People who have argued Shapesharer's case deserve props. It is a fundamentally weak method of solving all the decks problems, spending 5 mana to gain parity with 1,2,and 3 mana threats (dreadnought, goyf, and crusher/vore), but it solves them nonetheless.
I like having a lot of bounce because there are many permanents that hurt this deck. Actually, I don't understand how any deck can justify eschewing all forms of dealing with resolved permanents, as it is impossible to counter everything and naively arrogant to assume that your dudes can outclass theirs every time. Also, I have an irrational fear of combo decks, and echoing truth houses all the decks that make hordes of tokens, while Rushing River gives the deck 7 outs to CB/top, which is a lot better than 4. That being said, I'm definitely considering dropping to 5 or 6 bounce instead of 7 in order to fit in some card advantage.
People have called Cursecatcher bad, but I don't understand why. I understand that he misses Deed and explosives, which makes him worse than in standard, where the premier sweeper is wrath/damn, but there are other reasons to have him. The first is mana curves, with all 2 mana creatures, the deck feels very slow, especially when you play Vial. Given that I believe this is largely a tempo deck, having bad early game tempo seems like a poor choice. Also, Cursecatcher gives you a big advantage in counter wars, and it makes Daze better, which I like. One question I have, can you sac him for no reason, ie to kill some bridge from belows?
I dropped tidal warriors because tapping a dude to give your other dudes a free pass is weak. It's a 3 card combo that does maybe 3 damage a turn. It can be devastating with 4-5 creatures in play, but in that case it's just a win-more card. What makes tidal warrior good is color-screwing opponents. I think that there is probably a perfectly decent mana-denial deck to be made using tidal warrior, Cursecatcher, port and wasteland (maybe even going overboard for ghost quarter too), B2B, Daze, and cheap dudes, and maybe a black splash for stuff like recoil and sinkhole, but this isn't it.
Riptide pilferer is great, but is definitely the 4th best 2 drop merfolk, meaning she doesn't quite make the grade. Better than Silvergill adept and shapesharer against combo though.
The deck obviously suffers somewhat from a low budget (nice manabase right?), there isn't much i can do about that in the next two weeks, but I'll work on it over time.
mm your list seems a bit too overnumbered in merfolks and the lands cannot be just islands. I would sugegst to cut 6 islands to put 4 wasteland, which are amazing, and 2 mutavaults ( even more if u can afford them), because with our 8 pumpers they become very big. Also, if you use manlands and wastes a great CA engine is standstill, seriously. I play that list and always have a hand of 5-6 cards at least. Don't forget that standstill is also nuts with vial!
Merfolks, as i was saying, are too much. I think that reejerey-LoA-silvergill are compulsory, but the other... it's true that shapesharer can handle ppo's largest creatures, but it always cost 3 to do it ( and can be stifled, killed in response, ecc ecc ) , so i would recommend 3, not 4.
Echoing truths are reaaly good ( also for ETW combos), if you like 4 you're welcome. For the 1cc drops, instead, instead of the dazefolk i would suggest stifle, which is the strongest multiuse card: can do everything, coffee included, but most of all can stop oppos fetches from the first turns and give you advantage in tempo to charge vial, develop your game and whatsoever.
Ah, for raising CA the B/U Sygg is very good, i play it in 2 copies and he's pretty good ( no more than 2 cause he's legendary and doesn't die so easily.. well, for what happens to me :D ).
..All in my opinion, obv.
cloudstrife7, don't take it bad. I appreciate the fact that some people understand that merfolk is very good deck.
The problem is that you can't play a low budget version of this deck. FoW and the mana denial are absolutely unavoidable. Another thing is that we cannot keep a track for each deck built with the available cards in each player's pool. If you want to play budget, just play ichorid. It's maybe the best deck deck apart from merfolk and random fish ;-)
In such a thread, there should never be budget consideration. If you don't have the cards take it as a theory and then make yourself the practical projection into your card pool.
Cursecatcher is bad, because it's 1 for 1 and it's never a surprise (or you'll bluff with a 1-counter vial which is suboptimal for the game strategy).
As far as I came here is what I believe to be an optimal list :
Folks: 16
4 Lords
4 Reejereys
4 Silvergil
4 Shapesharer
Mana : 25
4*port
4*wasteland
10/11*island
2/3*Faerie Conclave
4*vial
Disruption : 12
4*Daze
4*FoW
4*Stifle
Draw: 4
4*Standstill
Bounce : 3
3*Rushing River
SB :
3*Jitte
4*Propaganda
4*Tormod's crypt
1*Rushing River
3*Mind Harness
The synergies :
Vial+standstill
standstill + 8*anti-lands lands + 2/3*conclave=kill
creatures+standstill
rushing river+standstill (end of turn3 bounce 1 or 2 opponent's threats and play standstill)
12 land disruption+daze
land disruption+ fast aggro clock
etc...
The deck has the following nice properties:
-chalice/counterbalance resilience
-moon effect resiliency
-very good deed protection (mana/colour denying, stifle, counterspells)
-standstill immunity
-shackles/humility bypass (evasion provided by lord/reejerey for shackles, evasion of conclave for the second)
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