[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

[Dark_Cynic87]

You should frankly read why I made fun of him (hint: it's quoted in my post). He lost to being an abysmal player. I have no sympathy for people who lose to obvious situations then make posts about the matchup not being good. I'd rather have fewer good players than more bad players.

Ok, first, I'd like to say that while I agree with almost ALL of what you say, Brandon, your arrogance astounds me. Well, it would, but it's so abundant that I've become accustomed to it, even expectant of it. Secondly, I posted that NOT for your "sympathy", but for advice. Clearly you can't see respect even when it kicks you in the nuts.

I might add that (and check this page and last, it'll confirm it) That I stayed up for quite some time (40+ hours) at the time of my playtesting (the final 10 hours of my time awake, the other 30 were spent on going to class and writing a paper). It's finals week and I'm still allowing myself to have a bit of fun, to the shegrin of my finals scores I'm sure. Play mistakes happen. You make them too. Having said that, I wasn't thinking he'd have a turn 1 kill, as he goldfishes @ 80% wins on turn 2. I've never had a game against him last longer than 3 turns when I was playing FT. In fact, I've had quite a bit more luck beating him with UGr Sun Tower.

I'd like to see your most recent build/what you are playing now, as I'm sure most of us would.

Anyway, no hard feelings, Emidln, but I would take some time to reflect on your attitude. Karma can really be a bitch.

Pce,

--DC

[deviant]

Brandon, your arrogance astounds me. Well, it would, but it's so abundant that I've become accustomed to it, even expectant of it.

Yes, and keep up the good work Brandon. (absolutely no hint of sarcasm intended.)

[Dark_Cynic87]

Yes, and keep up the good work Brandon. (absolutely no hint of sarcasm intended.)

I'd appreciate a bit of input on the deck, not blatant sucking up.

Pce,

--DC

[jjjoness']

So you really have problems with the Ichorid Matchup? I just did a few testing games against it, but it has never been a problem so I didn't even think about doing a lot of testing. The only games you lose to Ichorid should be preboard if you don't have chant on turn 1 and they kill you, or if they make a huge Therapy action. And how often does it actually happen that Ichorid comboes out on turn 1? I think that's just in very few games. Postboard you usually have 3 Pates and 4 Chants to stop them, which should be enough to keep them from winning until you can combo. The point is, when you don't have to worry 'bout protection, you can tutor straight for your combo, and this deck's goldfish still is damn fast.

[GreenOne]

I've yet to run into a compelling reason why I SHOULD include the card. I'd be really interested in hearing it. Everyone else is doing it and Iggy Pop always ran it aren't so compelling to me.

The main advantages in running both SW and Petal are that you can play 2 cantrips on turn 1 and combo off turn 2 using threshed Cabal Rituals. It helps in having the mana to cast a Chant on turn 2 and then win protected. It also helps in going Hellbent IT without a LED. It happens quite often, at least to me.
This by no means should be interpreted (sp?) as the SW+Petal version is better. I see the 2 versions as completely different decks.

The SW+Petal one is trying to combo faster, with a lighter mana base and have some solutions to hate coming in, and the possibility to race it. It's also more grave dependant. The deck have a good combo matchup thanks to it's speed and ability to find chant fast. It's inability to make every land drop and sculpt his hand with SDT makes a worse matchup against Landstill.

The SDT+ more lands slightly worsens the Aggro matchup due to a slower goldfish and more "pay half your life" cards. The aggro matchup is not unfair, but still one sided.
The deck aims at having a protected win every game, and a solution to hate of any kind. Hate is not raced, but it's fought. This explains the Krosan Grips, the Extirpate, the Doomsday and the Brain Freeze.
Sure, the deck is not the fastest combo, it has somewhat the role Solidarity had once: the slowest combo deck that could fight better against counterwalls and permanent based hate. Solidarity could race aggro pretty well and it won on turn 4 usually, for a turn 3 you needed a very good hand. Goblins and Aggro goldfish has not increased, and this deck wins AT LEAST half a turn faster than solidarity.
Slowing down the deck will probably mess with the faster combo matchup, but I didn't test it. It's sure the deck has lost the turn 1 cantrip+petal to have an "active" Orim faster. It has also lost the turn 1 Land, Petal, Mystical ->Orim, SW play.

I'm playing both the versions right now and I can say that they both have advantages and disadvantages. They play in a dfferent way too. And maybe because i first started with the SW+Petal (but i doubt it) but the SDT version is really much more difficult to play, as it allows many more plays and small decisions during the game.

Seriously why are you playing Doomsday. I may not understand some of your other selections, but this card is complete garbage.

@Doomsday. The card is sick in the SDT version as it allows to play around graveyard hate, meddling mage, gaddock, and recurring threats from the graveyard without the need to tutor for bounce. I second anyone that if you tested it and found it just bad you can't see the stacks that can be built. Try looking in the last 3-4 pages, the discussion on some of them is near and can help as example. Ask emidln for some matches and he'll crush you with Doomsday.

I'd like to see your most recent build/what you are playing now, as I'm sure most of us would.

A list up to 4 days ago can be found on the TES vs FT thread here:

Here's the list:
Fetchland Tendrils (FT)
Played by Emidln

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Island

Spells
1 Wipe Away
1 Cruel Bargain
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Orim's Chant
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Lotus Petal
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Brain Freeze
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Doomsday
1 Extirpate

Sideboard:
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Rushing River
SB: 4 Serenity
SB: 2 Abeyance
SB: 1 Sudden Death

[jegger]

Jegger, I wonder how can you find a free slot in the MD How does your list look like?

I'm trying 2 decks: one with and one without SDT.
Anyway they are standard decklists, in the version with SDT I have a slot free because I use 3 SDT and not 4. Both the versions use 4 Petal maindeck.

I continue to prefer the version without SDT that is more slim and linear to play.

With the version with SDT often I miss turns to play sensei paying 1 for revealing cantrip playing cantrip and so on...and I have a considerable decrease of turn 2 kill. Because I reach the idea that 10-11 cantrip (brainstorm, ponder, sensei) are too much, I want to try for a while a version without ponder and with brainstorm/sensei/SW.

In the version without SDT it's also more easy to side in/out because in every game except combo I can side out SW.

[GreenOne]

In the version without SDT it's also more easy to side in/out because in every game except combo I can side out SW.

Yeah, in the SDT version I uually side out Brain Freeze, but I'm always undecided in what other to take out.

I guess the 4 petals in the SDT version are played instead of lands. Didn't you find top less exciting with less lands to work with?

[ACME_Myst]

I want to adress this post to all the people who are saying that adding SDT over SW is bad, cutting Petals is bad, and in general that slowing down is a bad thing, because now you only get to combo on turn 1 10% of the time rather than 20%.

Allow me to let you in on a little secret: This deck isn't combo. Decks like TES, Belcher and Ichorid are combo. This deck is combo-control, which is at the absolute top of the foodchain in terms of archetypes (though not nessicarily this build, but it's getting close).

Unlike more traditional combo style decks like Ichorid and Belcher, which pray their opponent doesn't open with Extirpate or Force of Will respectively (or in the case of TES, double counter), these archetypes are able to mostly ignore their opponents. They have the unmatched ability to constantly find protection and answers when they need it. When so much as 1 piece of this protection slips through the opponents counterwall, it's GG for them. Imagine ******** resolving Force of Will and then winning on the spot, except now they also run 8 tutors to find or find multiples of their protection.

The combo element of these decks allow the pilot to goldfish aggro decks before they even get you in the danger zone, while the control element allows for a lategame traditional combo decks normally lack. Also, I'd like to add that it really doesn't matter if you kill you opponent on turn 2 or on turn 15, a win is a win.

Now, all of these points are of course very obvious, but I get the idea some people forget about them when commenting on Fetchland Tendrils.

Sure, the deck is slower than TES. It still goldfishes consistently with or without protection by turn 4, which should be about a full turn faster than any aggro deck. Sure, Goblins could get the extreme nuts and win on turn 3, at a time when you don't have Chant to timewalk them. However, the odds of you comboing faster than turn 4 are a lot bigger than theirs.

In exchange for this mostly irrelavent loss in speed, the deck get's the ability to fight and win the lategame versus Landstill, ********, Stax, and mostly anything else bluebased. This is something that traditional combo decks are really lacking. Sure, TES can also beat those decks, as can Belcher. But what happens when you try to race them, you fail, and are left in topdeck mode? You pray your opponent doesnt draw more counters, but he will. The second try ends just the same, and eventually that Goyf or Factory will get you down. The decks lack the insane search you get from 11 cantrips and 8 tutors, along with 6 protection spells. And that's just preboard.

To finish up, I'd like to add this: If with the current build you cannot beat aggro, speed up your goldfish or find another deck to play. Go play Belcher, and lose to anything bluebased you'll face in a tournament. Sure, the deck is hard to play. What did you expect, with the insane decision tree coming from all those cantrips and tutors. You go play a fast combo deck, while I'm off to crush ******** once again.

[Bryant Cook]

Some of these points are valid and many others not, my question is what exactly are you controlling as combo-control?

[Jaiminho]

Control is in this deck not as a defensive measure, but as an offensive measure. As strange as that may sound, it's the role cantrips, Top, bounce, Chant and Extirpate have in this deck. Of these, only Chant and maybe Extirpate can be played defensively. In general, control in this deck is not used to help you not die, so you can win later, but it helps you win right through your opponent's defenses.

Summarizing: we control our opponent's control cards.

[Bryant Cook]

Control is in this deck not as a defensive measure, but as an offensive measure. As strange as that may sound, it's the role cantrips, Top, bounce, Chant and Extirpate have in this deck. Of these, only Chant and maybe Extirpate can be played defensively. In general, control in this deck is not used to help you not die, so you can win later, but it helps you win right through your opponent's defenses.

Summarizing: we control our opponent's control cards.

By this definition, TES is a control deck. Brainstorm, Ponder, Draw 4's, Vexing Shusher, Pyroblast and Chant.

[Nihil Credo]

Yeah, I don't like "combo-control" either. The distinction exists, though. I just don't think we currently have a term for "combo that also runs cards to turn off the opponent's disruption", just like we have no term for "aggro that uses discard and light LD to disturb the opponent's game plan" (Suicide Black and its variants).

[GreenOne]

By this definition, TES is a control deck. Vexing Shusher, Pyroblast and Chant.

TES packs some control elements with a cantrip engine.
FT plays more control elements, with cantrips and a draw engine in SDT. It also have a good amount of tutors to gain them and a stable manabase with lots of lands to make constant land drops.

Solidarity used its Fows/Remands/Twincast as control elements when playing against aggro to gain time, they were used as protection when trying to combo.

FT uses its Chants as control elements to slow down aggro when it's needed, and to disrupt opposing combos, its extirpates to slow down Ichorid, its wipe away can be used to gain a turn bouncing a goyf.
All those elements are used as protection for the combo too.

Aluren and Solidarity are the classic examples of Combo-Control archetype IMO, as they pack more lands than a classic combo deck, they're slower and they run more disruption than a classic combo deck. T in its SDT version fulfills all those criteria.

[Brehn]

Whatever. People say that Ichorid is Combo (which is wrong imo), people say that Enchantress is Combo (which is wrong imo), people say that FT is control (which is wrong imo). Also, MossNought is AggroComboControl (what?). Just stop arguing about archetypes, they don't exist anymore. Do some relevant stuff in the meantime (like testing if 2 Doomsdays are necessary - I'm down to one).

[Bryant Cook]

TES packs some control elements with a cantrip engine.
FT plays more control elements, with cantrips and a draw engine in SDT. It also have a good amount of tutors to gain them and a stable manabase with lots of lands to make constant land drops.

Solidarity used its Fows/Remands/Twincast as control elements when playing against aggro to gain time, they were used as protection when trying to combo.

FT uses its Chants as control elements to slow down aggro when it's needed, and to disrupt opposing combos, its extirpates to slow down Ichorid, its wipe away can be used to gain a turn bouncing a goyf.
All those elements are used as protection for the combo too.

Even so, that does not make the deck control. You have controlling cards, not a controlling deck.

[jjjoness']

I think it's rather the point, that FT plays and feels like a control deck. You slowly cantrip and get all the stuff you need to win, until you can play through your opponent's hate. So you usualy play the deck slow and safe, but if needed you can also play fast and goldfishlike, crushing aggro and other stuff without hate.

[Jaiminho]

Even so, that does not make the deck control. You have controlling cards, not a controlling deck.

I was about to answer your other post, then I saw everyone already did. Anyway, I don't like to call it control-combo either. Nihil actually posted exacly what ACME Myst said a while ago: control in this deck is analogue to the control in a Suicide Black deck.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I'll do more testing against ichorid, but now that I've had some sleep and whatnot, I see my stupidity. My mistake was not even thinking (which is so often the case when you are brain-dead) about 'Pating bridges or boarding in E. Truth. You know, the obvious choices that I couldn't even function well enough to make.

I see he's running 3x grips in the board. I've gone up to 4, dropping serenity down to 3x. 3x Serenity is still good against major artifact lists such as Ravager and Stax varients, 4 is unnecessary, but better than this is that Grips is a "right-now" card. Serenity is easily dealt with by an O-Ring. K. Grip can get that Trinisphere off the board right away. Alternatively, Grips are also good against Dragon Stompy. Get's rid of their equipment right away rather than letting them hit you with it again. Before clearing the board.

I am going up to 16 lands, but I can't figure out what to drop for it. I suppose I'll try out the Brain Freeze in place of Tendrils #2. What all does it help against?

Should I drop 1 of my 2 LDV for a 4th Enlightened Tutor? I see Emidln doesn't use them, but some of you others do. I've been running 2x. I guess I could just drop one and toss in the 16th land in that slot...I want the 16th land for another basic (Island) as I've only been running 1/1 on swamp and Island in favor of a maindeck Trop, although another Tundra might be an option as I've been looking more for both white and blue sources. Does anyone else run 2x Scrubs?

Pce,

--DC

[GreenOne]

I suppose I'll try out the Brain Freeze in place of Tendrils #2. What all does it help against?

Should I drop 1 of my 2 LDV for a 4th Enlightened Tutor? I see Emidln doesn't use them, but some of you others do.

Brain Freeze helps against Meddling Mage and Gaddock. That's it. Oh, maybe with solidarity too if that matters.

I never tested E. Tutor. Is it any good? Seems horrible G1 when it can really fetch only LED and SDT. Post SB I guess it's a lot better, fetching Serenity and, eventually, Explosives or CounterBalance.
Isn't it too much card disadvantage? Isn't LDV better in its spot? Which slots is it taking in your list?

[Dark_Cynic87]

No, it's crap. I meant a 4th Mystical Tutor. I am indeed playing a 3x M. Tutor/2x LDV split, though Same with Top/Wraith, respectively. I'm really thinking about dropping down to 1x LDV, as it's only really superior against Chalice at 1. It's not really any better against CB.

@ Brain Freeze: Wouldn't it just be better to Death wish into slaughter pact or a bounce spell or even Massacre for against Teeg and Mage? Brain Freeze vs. Solidarity is damn funny, especially when we run Extirpate AND chants...lol.

Pce,

--DC