Can Cantrips that don't dig be good

[rleader]

Can Cantrips that don't "dig" be good in Legacy? It seems unlikely that anything but blue will ever get what we consider to be a useful, deck thinning, card-selecting cantrip. Even Manamorphose has been poo-pooed to a large extent: not knowing what all your cards in "hand" are is a risky proposition, especially when it comes to mulliganning. (Of course, Stephen Menendian thinks everyone who doesn't play Street Wraith is a coward or an idiot.) How many lands do you even play when you add in blind cantrips?

Even cantrips that came with a lot of fanfare are now dollar rares, Overmaster and Quicken: They don't even require a target, replace themselves for a single mana, and have potentially swingy results. Still, nothing. You'd have to fudge with the rest of your land/spell ratios to fit them in, one mana can be a big deal in legacy (Daze), and you'd have to start testing your deck all over again for even the most basic consistency whenever you swap out any other cards.

Peppersmoke is a nice black themed cantrip, but they safely made it unplayable out of standard or block.

The recent Wisps cycle in Shadowmoor seems nice too. Perhaps not too many legacy applications, although I can think of some:

Aphotic Wisps (black, gains fear) seems like it would be a powerful card in Legacy Affinity (no more chump blocking Ravager or Atog), as you'll likely always have a target of your own to burn it if you'd just prefer your next card.

Niveous Wisps (white, tap creature) might work in Harley-Q as a further deck thinner, although it's one that requires an opposing target to work, which certainly counts against it.

How could Wizards print a worthwhile cantrip (for legacy, especially) for colors besides blue? Should there be a white or green Ponder?

[Cait_Sith]

1) Cantrips that don't dig can be good in their primary effect is good. Manamorphose changes the color of your mana. Is that useful often? No. Niveous wisps may become useful in MWC, except it is iffy if MWC is a good choice right now.

2) Will they print an off color "dig" style cantrip? Probably not. Blue has always been the color with the greatest amount of library manipulation. Green does have a few cards that work like cantrips, but they are highly limited. EX: Commune with Nature.

[Illissius]

Abeyance sees play. Or are you only talking about one mana cantrips with inconsequential effects? Those do tend to be bad.

EDIT - Also, some people are playing Needle Drop, though I personally think the card sucks.

[rleader]

Or are you only talking about one mana cantrips with inconsequential effects?

Both, really, I forgot Abeyance was a cantrip. I was just thinking about how far the power of the one mana cantrips could be pushed in order that people might start using them.

The one mana aspect is pretty significant. People keep using Stifle over Trickbind. And, I'm asking out of not playing white very often myself, does the use of Abeyance have anything to do with budget concerns, in that it's less expensive than Orim's Chant, rather than they want to get away with using a cantrip to do roughly the same thing?

I agree on Needle Drop; not a friendly topdeck to say the least.

I saw someone here suggest main deck Cremates as a meta choice.

And, sure, Mental Note and Predict. And with that, I suppose Divining Top could be considered a two mana cantrip, too.

But yeah, most of the interesting ones are blue, of course.

You could slot something like Ignorant Bliss into Dragon Stompy, but this is a deck that already mulligans poorly ("oh, but by mulliganning I achieve hellbent so much quickly! Mulliganning is radical, dude!"), whereas cantrips ensure that Thresh almost never mulligans unless it knows a specific weakness of an opponent.

[MattH]

But Seriously Guys, Bandage Was Awesome.

[FoolofaTook]

I've been wondering if Quicken was worth playing in a Tendrils deck as a general purpose cantrip that could let you go off on the other guys turn when he was building Storm to try to do you. I just don't see it though. Even though Quicken also works with Mystical Tutor to get the Tendrils into your hand when you want it. It's just too weak an effect to be worth playing for the 10% of the time it has applicability.

[C.P.]

There are some formats that cantrips that don;t dig can be good. They are called Mental Magic or Pile. But not Legacy.

[BreathWeapon]

Fire/Ice 4TW!

[bigbear102]

Wombat at one time was playing essentially 16 1 mana cantrips:

4 Renewed Faith
4 Bandage
4 Abeyance
3-4 Secluded Steppe

Not counting the other 4-8 cycling cards that may have been played in some builds.

I see Renewed Faith as a cantrip because it had a very small ability, and was normally cycled to dig for more answers. Same with Bandage and Steppe. Abeyance had uses beyond Cantripping, but obviously beat out Orim's Chant because of the Cantrip built into it.

I do believe that Niveous Wisps would replace Bandage in any current build, seeing as it stops Lackey just as well and also slows down Goyfs and other big dudes.

[Illissius]

If Zap cost one mana it would still be bad in Legacy I think. Ice for only (without the Fire half) might be good enough. A one-turn Exploration effect which cantripped for would be good (and possibly broken).

[MattH]

Wombat at one time was playing essentially 16 1 mana cantrips:

4 Renewed Faith
4 Bandage
4 Abeyance
3-4 Secluded Steppe

Half of those are not 1 mana...? Do you mean 1-2?

[Malchar]

I could see Aphotic Wisps in Rb goblins. Unblockable piledriver or counters a terror.

I think people would make decks bigger than 60 cards a lot more often if they wern't afraid of being made fun of. The problem is that with all the tutors and things, people like adding in one-of's that they can bring out when the time is right. This is especially true of people (myself included) that generally just copy established decklists and maybe tweak it a bit. If you understand the fundamentals of a deck, then it should be easy and beneficial to cut things for cantrips.

Not using cantrips to thin your deck while still having the minimum 60 cards seems kind of silly. If you really want less cards, then replace things with cantrips. If you dont want the minimum, then go 65 or something and add in all your favorite conditional cards and a way to tutor for them. You might as well choose one extreme or the other. Personally, I think cantrips are worth a shot. I mean, smaller decks are good. If Wizards changed it so that the minimum was 40, then everyone would take out 20 cards, right?

This is why the cantrips at least cost mana or life (street wraith and fetchlands). Or at the very least, they make it hard to mulligan or waste time for you (mishra's bauble). Let's just say that I wouldn't be surprised to see a deck that took full advantage of cantrips/deck thinning.

[Citrus-God]

Half of those are not 1 mana...? Do you mean 1-2?

He forgot to mention Festival of the Guildpact. I'm sure he was referring to that... that or the other 1c cantrip was Secluded Steppe.

[MTL10]

Aphotic Wisps (black, gains fear) seems like it would be a powerful card in Legacy Affinity (no more chump blocking Ravager or Atog), as you'll likely always have a target of your own to burn it if you'd just prefer your next card.

You know what this card is best for in legacy? Cunning wish for Apothetic Wists; Cast Apothetic Wisps targeting Psychatog; Swing with unblockability; GG... sounds really solid if you ask me.

[undone]

You could just ask for a broken card after all

Computers To Plow Shares
W
Remove target creature from the game your oppoent gains life equal to power, draw 1

[Omega]

cantrip that dont dig that can be good :

peek (can get some nice information)
opt (it digs a little)
street wraith (in some old FT lists : CAst mystical, cycle streetwraith)
Abeyance : We play it not for the cantrip, but for the Chant effect

i cant think of any at the moment. But all those 4 cantrip that dont dig have very powerful effect. The cantrip is a bonus.


btw : Sensei is not a normal cantrip... Sure, you can pay 1 to play and tap to draw, which is a blind cantrip. Or you can pay 2 to make ponder style. But usually, Sensei's is there to guarantee Card Quality.

[cloudstrife7]

Cremate eventually replaced mental note in Pyschatog builds one extended season, but I don't remember which Feldman article mentioned it for the link. Anyway, both cremate and mental note are good non-digging cantrips.

Peek made top 8 in Gadiel Szleifer's deck at Grand Prix columbus: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...ol07/welcome#6

[Jak]

Cremate eventually replaced mental note in Pyschatog builds one extended season, but I don't remember which Feldman article mentioned it for the link. Anyway, both cremate and mental note are good non-digging cantrips.

Peek made top 8 in Gadiel Szleifer's deck at Grand Prix columbus: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...ol07/welcome#6

We try not to speak of that event! Seriously though, I wouldn't take anything from that tournaent because it was so messed up.

[FoolofaTook]

street wraith (in some old FT lists : CAst mystical, cycle streetwraith)

Street Wraith has to have some other purpose also to be good. Just pulling a card off the top of your pile, even if you put it there, is not a good enough reason to play the card. If you have a two card combo that can instantly kill like Flash-Hulk then it's possibly strong, but most decks are going to need a secondary function for Street Wraith to make it good.

I've tried it with Mystical Tutor, Enlightened Tutor, Oath of Ghouls, Unmask, Contagion, basically any really valid secondary use of it outside of the Ichorid synergy, and I still can't make it into a particularly powerful device.

In Ichorid the ability to cycle a Street Wraith into the yard and then use the draw to Dredge and then sac the Street Wraith to put Ichorid into play is very powerful because it fulfills multiple vectors towards a win.