[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

[Dark_Cynic87]

It is my opinion that SI and QSI should NOT be in the conversation at all. We are talking about Combo lists that are potentially decks to beat, not simply established lists.

I think where FT is outstanding compared to TES is against a meta with high graveyard hate. Doomsday has it.

Also, it's my opinion that most of you FT players don't realize something about this deck: The build you use is dependent on your meta. You don't have to mirror Emidln's build. That's the whole point of this list--versatility. Fetchland Tendrils is just what it implies: Fetchlands and tendrils. That's (mostly) what makes this different than TES. The manabase. Obviously they do some things different, but the general idea is the same. You accelerate, protect, and win.

Some metagames may indeed call for EtW. Others can simply use 2x Tendrils. Others may need to go for Brain Freeze.

The debatable slots in this build are exactly what they seem like: Interchangeable.

If you insist on a faster build for a heavier aggro meta, then go the 2x IGG route if you need/want. Doomsday is in my opinion a permanent replacement. If you want a tad more versatility in answering situations game 1, go ahead and use Death Wish. A more controllish metagame may call for a Draw-4 in the SB. Krosan Grip may be an acceptable option for you in the maindeck for a heavy Thresh environment, and some may still feel like it's ok to play Street Wraith for a more aggressive playing field, and also 4 petals for more explosiveness.

This isn't like other decks. This has essentially become the legacy Keeper varient like the old t1 lists way back in the day. It's especially formatted to do what it needs to when it needs to. Not go in and wipe clean an entire unknown metagame without a problem. The point of it is to have at least a chance against any deck it meets, and I feel that some of you aren't really understanding this. That's why I'm taking 2 decks with me to the GP Denver legacy side-event. If I don't feel like I'm aware enough of their metagame, I'll probably not play it. If I can scout to my liking, then I'll tweak it accordingly.

In my opinion, the only reason why TES does better against Thresh/CB is because of Shusher and REB/P-Blast. If you want to get technical, Shusher could absolutely be an option for FT if you wanted to screw around with the manabase. It's not like it's a big deal who's list is better, it's how you pilot it, the matchups you encounter, how many play errors you and your opponent make, and lets not forget: luck. Your draws matter. Your opening hand matters. This is not news, no matter how hard you want to forget it.

Pce,

--DC

[Jaiminho]

TES has the better thresh MU.

Not really -- TES has a better UGb/x Thresh MU than FT. It's as Illussius stated:

Thus far, the only data we have says that both decks have made T8s (don't know about the ratio), and that one particular build of TES has a notably better matchup than one particular build of FT against one particular build of four color Threshold with CB/Top and Thoughtseize.

CB+Top combined with Thoughtseize were game wrecking, since the latter would remove FT's answer to the former and then simply win. I don't understand when I suggested some stuff to the Thresh list (before freakish777 was chosen to play Thresh and then got to use his own list) and I got pushed away for, as one said, my suggestion would make it for an anti-combo list, which is much of what UGb Thresh is (white splashed or not).

I don't see people running over the TES thread saying FT has a better MU against this or that, so wtf.

[Jak]

Not really -- TES has a better UGb/x Thresh MU than FT. It's as Illussius stated:



CB+Top combined with Thoughtseize were game wrecking, since the latter would remove FT's answer to the former and then simply win. I don't understand when I suggested some stuff to the Thresh list (before freakish777 was chosen to play Thresh and then got to use his own list) and I got pushed away for, as one said, my suggestion would make it for an anti-combo list, which is much of what UGb Thresh is (white splashed or not).

I don't see people running over the TES thread saying FT has a better MU against this or that, so wtf.

Still, I don't think that is a good arguement. Thoughtseize takes out Vexxing Shusher also, which gives them 8 solid answers to our out to CB. Thoughtseize affects us both.

Thank you, DarkCynic, for answering me thouroghly. I am still interested in this deck and didn't want bs answers that I got before the competition.

[undone]

Im going to be totaly honest. It was NOT meant to be a "this deck suckzors play TES" I was simply asking if vexing susher made this outdated tech. As prior to susher, you definately have the CB+top matchup a bit better then them.

The reason Im asking this is that I have most of the cards for this I was curious If the deck was still good enough for me to spend the time goldfishing 40+ hands to learn the ins and outs of the deck (Took me like 150+ goldfishes with TES as well as at least 30 games and I still dont understand it totaly) I was simply curious If the deck is still good enough for me to invest time into learning how to play it (I have the cards)

I think where FT is outstanding compared to TES is against a meta with high graveyard hate. Doomsday has it.

Is that really true? I really dont use my GY in TES games 2/3 The little green men run to the face. It just seemed like this deck relied heavily on the GY with multi IGG. It also my be my lack of understanding how you use doomsday *I understand float mana draw a card then draw all 4 but how does that produce brainfreeze storm*

[Mental]

Im going to be totaly honest. It was NOT meant to be a "this deck suckzors play TES" I was simply asking if vexing susher made this outdated tech. As prior to susher, you definately have the CB+top matchup a bit better then them.

The reason Im asking this is that I have most of the cards for this I was curious If the deck was still good enough for me to spend the time goldfishing 40+ hands to learn the ins and outs of the deck (Took me like 150+ goldfishes with TES as well as at least 30 games and I still dont understand it totaly) I was simply curious If the deck is still good enough for me to invest time into learning how to play it (I have the cards)



Is that really true? I really dont use my GY in TES games 2/3 The little green men run to the face. It just seemed like this deck relied heavily on the GY with multi IGG. It also my be my lack of understanding how you use doomsday *I understand float mana draw a card then draw all 4 but how does that produce brainfreeze storm*

TES players tend to overrate Shusher. He's very good, but what are you siding out for him + 3 blasts? Oh yeah, the mana to play him + 3 blasts. Not so hot. He's by no means perfect.

@EmidIn - I agree with your points on the SB, but I still think that it's hard to argue that fast combo has a better MU against Loam than less fast combo. Not that this list can't be easily tuned to beat loam.

@DarkCynic: I completely agree with your views about the adaptability of this deck. I'm in a straight aggro/aggro-(control) meta, so I'm playing the old petal list with Street Wraith. I made the mistake of running only 1 IGG last tournament and it cost me, but I think next time I play this deck I'll be playing some amount of EtW, 2 IGG, and lots of fast acceleration.

To make this easy for people:
In an aggro meta, you probably want to MB - 2 IGG, EtW, Draw4s, less bounce, less Extirpate, Lotus Petal, Street Wraith
In a Thresh meta, you probably want to MB - 1 IGG, 1 Doomsday, 1 Brainfreeze, 1 Tendrils, 17 lands, 3-4 SDT. And if there's black thresh, don't play this deck ;). Bounce is also good.
In a Landstill meta, play extra Extirpates in the board, along with 1 IGG, 1 Doomsday, and Double Tendrils MB. Play SDT and 17 lands.

[jegger]

Someone plays again Abeyance in SB?
I cut it because Abeyance allows to Spell Snare to became a relevance spell.

Above all, if I'm playing a decklist with Doomsday maindeck I think to play in SB Duress instead of Abeyance. Duress round on Spell Snare played in DreadStill or some variants of Threshold; an early Duress remove CB from hand; and if the problem is that with Duress we can't exit from an hand of Counter+Stifle, we can build a Doomsday's stack with Orim to round on Stifle. A problem of Duress is that we must search early a black mana source with fetches, and we know that usually the black mana source is the less relevance in early game and we can't fetch easily for duals because usually decks that play Spell Snare, they play also Wasteland.

In alternative to Duress, I'm trying Pact, but we need to play Doomsday combo without the help of LED (anyway many players don't know how to play against doomsday and usually they use their counters on doomsday instead to wait we discard the hand with LED).

Anyway Abeyance is better against others matchups like for example Ichorid.
(ah I consider Duress or Pact only in a build with Doomsday).

About the aggro-loam matchup, I have a teammate that plays this deck.
In his decklist, the hate against FT is: Chalice, Trinisphere and Devastating Dreams plus Burning Wish for Cranial Extraction that give me a clock of 4 turns. I've played dozens and dozens of games against aggro-loam. Usually pre-side we are 50-50 and the more important aspect is the coin toss. If we start we can increase the percentage of win of 5-10 points and vice versa. Post side, usually I win easily, I consider 75-80% of win. I side in 9 cards and his side in/out is not so effective like mine (Grip against Serenity or SDT if I use it, Leyline and sometimes additional Trinispheres).

[GreenOne]

Someone plays again Abeyance in SB?

I'm playing it as a 1x SB. I find it useful vs decks with Extirpate+Crypt as it solves both problems if unchecked.

[jegger]

I'm playing it as a 1x SB. I find it useful vs decks with Extirpate+Crypt as it solves both problems if unchecked.

How many times do you use it simultaneously against Extirpate and Crypt?
What are the decks that play both them?
Anyway the doubt between Abeyance, Duress, Pact is a minor aspect.

[GreenOne]

How many times do you use it simultaneously against Extirpate and Crypt?
What are the decks that play both them?
Anyway the doubt between Abeyance, Duress, Pact is a minor aspect.

The decks using Extirpate+Crypt are usually UBx aggrocontrol decks that prefer crypt to Leyline due to the Trinket Mage toolbox. Something similar to Dreadstill decks.
Quite a bit. I use it vs Stifle / Counters in grave + Crypt too.
It's also good in the TES matchup and when people extirpate your chants.

However, it's much more useful in the Wraith version. The access to Doomsday solves much of the Crypt problems.

[jegger]

The decks using Extirpate+Crypt are usually UBx aggrocontrol decks that prefer crypt to Leyline due to the Trinket Mage toolbox. Something similar to Dreadstill decks.
Quite a bit. I use it vs Stifle / Counters in grave + Crypt too.
It's also good in the TES matchup and when people extirpate your chants.

However, it's much more useful in the Wraith version. The access to Doomsday solves much of the Crypt problems.

Yep, but usually UBx aggrocontrol decks like Thresh UGB or Dreadstill variant with black play also Spell Snare, so they can give a role to their Snare. So we close the circle.
Anyway I consider the alternaives to Abeyance only if I can use the Doomsday to round on Crypt, I don't consider Duress/Pact where I can use only the IGG engine.
Thanks for your explanation anyway.

I'm also trying another evolution of the deck where the Doomsday combo has more space and where I cut the IGG engine.

[Jaiminho]

(...) we can build a Doomsday's stack with Orim to round on Stifle.

If you used LED to power up mana for Doomsday, you are relying on Top to start casting those 5 spells. They only need to cast Stifle on Top and you have just lost the game, unless they can't kill you or find a counter in the next turn and you can generate BBB to cast Draw4 and they are pretty low on life points. Seriously, it never happens.

Someone plays again Abeyance in SB?

I'm playing 2. It's very good against any combo and nice for extra chant effects. In the FT mirror, you simply lose if you have no Abeyances.

[Dark_Cynic87]

TES players tend to overrate Shusher.

QFT. It's good, but overrated. Swords'ed, Seized, burned, stifled, bounced. Meh.

To make this easy for people:
In an aggro meta, you probably want to MB - 2 IGG, EtW, Draw4s, less bounce, less Extirpate, Lotus Petal, Street Wraith
In a Thresh meta, you probably want to MB - 1 IGG, 1 Doomsday, 1 Brainfreeze, 1 Tendrils, 17 lands, 3-4 SDT. And if there's black thresh, don't play this deck ;). Bounce is also good.
In a Landstill meta, play extra Extirpates in the board, along with 1 IGG, 1 Doomsday, and Double Tendrils MB. Play SDT and 17 lands.

[/QUOTE]

I mostly agree with this, other than the 17 lands against Landstill. I will NOT play 17 lands, nor do I recommend it for anyone else. That's too much, no matter the matchup imho. I also disagree to an extent with the Draw-4's in an aggro meta (monored/redgreen Goblins, no need. A decent amount of hand disruption, ok). 1 seems sufficient against every aggro build I've played against.

Pce,

--DC

[Arsenal]

Shusher has more subtle effects on the game, especially game 2 and game 3, than what's written on the card. Assuming the opponent lost game 1 to TES, 99% of players will want to board out all their "dead" removal spells and load up on anti-combo cards... but now, they might not be so quick to do so. "Do I leave in these removal spells in the hopes that he boards in Shusher? Do I board out all my removal spells, only to find he plays turn 1 Shusher, turn 2 win?" It's definitely not overrated in TES, just a very strong card that not only positively affects the actual game, but has postitive sideboarding implications as well.

[GreenOne]

It's definitely not overrated in TES, just a very strong card that not only positively affects the actual game, but has postitive sideboarding implications as well.

That's the exact reason why I'm still playing Confidant in the board. Plus, people doesn't expect Confidant vs Fetchland Tedrils, and unchecked confidant(s) wins so many games it's unfair.

[Arsenal]

I just find it funny that FT players are talking about TES players overrating things...

[Jaiminho]

I don't see anyone profiting from this TES vs FT gang thing. From both sides. It's getting pretty annoying.

Back on topic: emidln, have you tested any of those changes you brainstormed about on the TES vs FT thread concerning proactive answers against opponent's Thoughtseize?

[Mental]

I just find it funny that FT players are talking about TES players overrating things...

Quiet, I play both decks equally often. They're both good. Players of both overrate their decks.

Confidant does seem like some good tech that should see play in the board again.

@DarkCynic:
Draw4s are good against aggro because most of the hate they bring in for you is in the form of discard. Draw4s circumvent that very well.

[emidln]

I don't see anyone profiting from this TES vs FT gang thing. From both sides. It's getting pretty annoying.

Back on topic: emidln, have you tested any of those changes you brainstormed about on the TES vs FT thread concerning proactive answers against opponent's Thoughtseize?

My gauntlet isn't finished yet. I'll post more on that list when it has undergone exhaustive testing.

[Brehn]

Great, now we are discussing Vexing Shusher in TES here? Arsenal, go away. I guess the only thing that's missing at this point is somebody claiming that Dreadstill is a bad deck. Bryant? Adan? Anyone?

I've done some testing recently (esp. Tempo Thresh and Landstill matchups) and I'd like to hear some opinions about Lotus Petal again. This is the manabase I've tested with:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains

2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island

1 Lotus Petal

And it didn't work well. Thing is, Wasteland can pretty much colorscrew you. This is what emidln wrote some pages ago when arguing about (i. e. against) Lotus Petal:

If you look at how the deck casts spells, you'll notice that it wants a lot of blue mana, a moderate amount of white mana, and one black mana.
(...)
You enter the protection phase with WWB. This is enough mana to get you to the combo phase.

How can this manabase support both "a lot of blue mana" and "WWB" ? In testing, if you know you're facing Wasteland, the first land you (optimally) play / fetch is a basic Island. Island because it produces blue to cast Brainstorm/Ponder and later Mystical Tutor, Basic because it's quite crucial not to get your very first mana source wasted. This means that by the time you combo off you need four lands in play, two of which must be able to produce white. I've faced the problem that it's pretty easy to cut the FT player off either WW or B via one or two Wastelands and/or Stifles (and no, it is not necessarily a bad move to Stifle a Fetchland. It's actually game-winning in many situations). Also, I've often found myself in the situation that I lost a game because that one land - the first one I've played - was a basic Island. Entering the combo step with B does not always work if you plan to win with Doomsday - you need BBBBBB with the standard stack, and often a good portion of this mana needs to come from your manabase because you don't have LED / enough rituals available. Then again, Island +WWB reequires 4 lands, considering that you get one land wasted (which is a healthy assumption) you can't go off before turn 5. By this time, it's not very unusual for a Threshold / Landstill-Player to have drawn into double-Counter + Stifle. How do you circumvent this without having to look for a third white manasource?

I've yet to run into a compelling reason why I SHOULD include the card. I'd be really interested in hearing it.

I think "produces U or W or B or G" is the main argument for Lotus Petal.

- With a manabase featuring 4 Petals Wasteland becomes less effective when it comes down to cutting off colors.
- Devastating Dreams doesn't necessarily wreck you.
- Armageddon doesn't necessarily wreck you.
- You can easily go off (unprotectedly) through a Blood Moon (try this with a non-Petal manabase if you were not lucky enough to be able to fetch your basic Swamp which requires one out of 5 cards to be drawn).
- Fetchlands can be used to bait Stifles more effectively (e.g.: the turn you want to go off bluff B-screw, lay down a Fetch, get it stifled, play Petal, Dark Ritual, win).
- The point that you can go off earlier against aggro is just an additional gimmick which comes in handy.
- Petals allow a first-turn walking Chant against decks with artifact-basede disruption or discard - after you've played your cantrip.
- Occasionally, Petals help you if you return them while going off with IGG.
- Non-Stifleable way to get green mana for Grip (although there are not that many decks with both Stifle and Counterbalance) - don't forget to cast Petal before CB hits.
- Fewer problems with getting BBBBBB for Doomsday.
- Helps gripping Counterbalance on turn 2 with the opponent tapped out (GreenOne)

I think those are strong arguments and I'd definitely like to see the counterpart of this list - arguments for a non-petal manabase. I currently can only think of those:

- Petals suck against Stax "because they always cost 3" (I've read this statement somewhere in this thread. Isn't this the same as "Lands suck against Stax because they always get armageddoned away" ?)
- Petals make the deck more vulnerable to Chalice at 0 (although I don't know to what extent)
- "More Lands are better in the Landstill matchup" - also read this somewhere in this thread. Is this true? Landstill plays 4 Wastelands and some lists play 2-4 Stifle, right?
- Playing fewer Land results in getting more one-landers which slows the cantrip/Top-engine down in the first few turns.
- More mulligans due to no-landers.

Comparing these lists (which surely are not complete) I'd say that the advantages of Petal outweigh the disadvantages. The manabase I'll test in the next days / weeks:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island

1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

4 Lotus Petal

(should this be -1 Strand, +1 manaproducing land?)


Another topic: Right number of Storm Enablers / Win Conditions. We got:

1-2 Tendrils of Agony
0-1 Brain Freeze
1-2 Doomsday (I won't consider cutting them completely)
1-2 Ill-Gotten Gains

emidln's list from the competition thread frees 4 slots for these spells. Initially he said something like "running 2 Doomsdays is mandatory" - probably changed his mind. Questions are:

- In which matchups do you want to have access to double Tendrils?
- Which matchups justify Brain Freeze being maindeck material?
- I've read somewhere that playing two IGGs helps against discard. Are they really necessary?
- Is anybody still playing 2 Doomsdays?


EDIT: Arsenal, you were not the one who brought it up. But you were the one to make two posts that didn't include anything about Fetchland Tendrils, that's why I randomly picked you. No offense.

[Arsenal]

I'm pretty sure I wasn't the one who brought up TES/Shusher in the first place, but I'll let you guys finish eating your humble pie.