[Deck] Armageddon Stax

[Skeggi]

any way, how would i talior the deck around mainly playing agro?

Stax's standard solution to aggro is Ghostly Prison effect* + Geddon effect, it basically stops all aggro, to completely nullify you use Tabernacle effect + Geddon effect.

As Nihil pointed out, Exalted Angel also helps, but you're already running 4, so you could add Blinding Angel, to add on his comment: against red aggro: Sphere of Law; more generic: Rule of Law.

You could also try land style, which works nicely with the Crucible, or Mox Diamonds, if you'd play any : Maze of Ith, Kor Haven. You're already playing the Factories, and they pwn, so that's cool, don't make the mistake of taking a Factory out for a Maze of Ith

*(I considered putting a 5th one in by splashing blue, putting in 1 Propaganda and switching a Plains for a Tundra**, but it was too much hastle: but if your meta is so much aggro, I'd go for this option over Windborn Muse)

**This would be your only source of blue mana, which you can fetch with Flagstones, so if you'd like to add Propaganda's, you need those Mox Diamonds.

[Skeggi]

Last Saturday I played in a very small local tournament. I played against MoonStax, Eva Green, Gobbo's without the Vial and TarmoTopStifleNoughtPainterStone (yes all in one lol).

Eva Green didn't play Pernicous Deed so was a walk in the park. So were the Gobbo's.

TarmoTopStifleNoughtPainterStone: first match I beat him, second match he beats me, third match he was locked down, had nothing on board, had lifetotal of 3 and my Magus was thumping him, while the judge came by with the message "Time's up"...so a draw, that sucked lol (I became 2nd because of this, so actually I should have won the tourney...).

MoonStax totally beat my ass, but since he became last in the small tourney, it's not a deck to put on the top of your priority list. But the fact I lost to another Stax deck really bugged me. So I could use some advice. Here's the list I played with:

4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
3x Flagstone of Trokair
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
7x Plains
--+
24

3x Magus of the Tabernacle
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Armageddon
4x Smokestack
2x Exalted Angel
4x Ghostly Prison
2x Oblivion Ring
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
4x Mox Diamond
4x Crucible of Worlds
--+
36

24
36
--+
60

Sideboard:

3x Wheel of Sun and Moon
3x Aura of Silence
3x Rule of Law
3x Suppression Field
2x Defense Grid
1x Oblivion Ring
--+
15

My advice is more concerning my sideboard: I know my deck can use small improvements here and there, but that's because I'm unable to lay my hands on certain cards ;)
My main question is: how would you construct my sideboard to be more MPV, and how to board agains MoonStax; with the old SB or the new.
What I did against Moonstax was
-4 Trinisphere
-1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
-2 Chalice of the Void

+3 Wheel of Sun and Moon (against his crucible)
+3 Aura of Silence (obviously)
+1 Oblivion Ring

He played creatureless the first game, but I knew he was the kind of guy who wants to 'trick' me in thinking he'd stay creatureless so I kept the Maguses and the Prisons, plus there wasn't really anything useful left to SB in

[Nihil Credo]

Sticking to more or less universally accepted ideas here...

As I believe has already been mentioned, you shouldn't bother with graveyard hate in any form. I can't think of a GY engine that can't be hated more effectively with better strategies (Prison/Muse -> Ichorid, Oblivion Ring -> Crucible, Suppression Field -> Survival, etc.)

Rule of Law is also quite narrow an answer, as it only does something against Storm combo and Enchantress. Assuming the latter isn't a common sight in your tournament, Runed Halo would be more useful despite the slightly more difficult mana cost - for example, you could name Grindstone and side it in against Painter combo.

For the MD: full playsets of Flagstones and Cities are pretty much the standard now.

[Gambit]

Sticking to more or less universally accepted ideas here...

As I believe has already been mentioned, you shouldn't bother with graveyard hate in any form. I can't think of a GY engine that can't be hated more effectively with better strategies (Prison/Muse -> Ichorid, Oblivion Ring -> Crucible, Suppression Field -> Survival, etc.)

Rule of Law is also quite narrow an answer, as it only does something against Storm combo and Enchantress. Assuming the latter isn't a common sight in your tournament, Runed Halo would be more useful despite the slightly more difficult mana cost - for example, you could name Grindstone and side it in against Painter combo.

For the MD: full playsets of Flagstones and Cities are pretty much the standard now.

There are soooo many graveyard based decks that I've decided that 3x T-Crypts are worth it, as you often will have some dead cards to pull for these matches anyhow. As far as O-ring, it seems that seal of cleansing is just better (look at the examples of what you want to hit), plus it can just sit on the board waiting for something to hit.
I also like Humility as an all around hoser.

[emidln]

Last Saturday I played in a very small local tournament. I played against MoonStax, Eva Green, Gobbo's without the Vial and TarmoTopStifleNoughtPainterStone (yes all in one lol).

Eva Green didn't play Pernicous Deed so was a walk in the park. So were the Gobbo's.

TarmoTopStifleNoughtPainterStone: first match I beat him, second match he beats me, third match he was locked down, had nothing on board, had lifetotal of 3 and my Magus was thumping him, while the judge came by with the message "Time's up"...so a draw, that sucked lol (I became 2nd because of this, so actually I should have won the tourney...).

MoonStax totally beat my ass, but since he became last in the small tourney, it's not a deck to put on the top of your priority list. But the fact I lost to another Stax deck really bugged me. So I could use some advice. Here's the list I played with:

4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
3x Flagstone of Trokair
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
7x Plains
--+
24

3x Magus of the Tabernacle
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Armageddon
4x Smokestack
2x Exalted Angel
4x Ghostly Prison
2x Oblivion Ring
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
4x Mox Diamond
4x Crucible of Worlds
--+
36

24
36
--+
60

Sideboard:

3x Wheel of Sun and Moon
3x Aura of Silence
3x Rule of Law
3x Suppression Field
2x Defense Grid
1x Oblivion Ring
--+
15

My advice is more concerning my sideboard: I know my deck can use small improvements here and there, but that's because I'm unable to lay my hands on certain cards ;)
My main question is: how would you construct my sideboard to be more MPV, and how to board agains MoonStax; with the old SB or the new.
What I did against Moonstax was
-4 Trinisphere
-1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
-2 Chalice of the Void

+3 Wheel of Sun and Moon (against his crucible)
+3 Aura of Silence (obviously)
+1 Oblivion Ring

He played creatureless the first game, but I knew he was the kind of guy who wants to 'trick' me in thinking he'd stay creatureless so I kept the Maguses and the Prisons, plus there wasn't really anything useful left to SB in

Moon Stax (and red stax in general) has a couple advantages here that they'll try to exploit (and that you need to neutralize) to win the game. The biggest one is going to be Goblin Welder out of the sb. This must be answered (by an ORing or some combination of Geddon effects and Tabernacle effects) or you will likely lose the game in short order. The next is going to be Ensnaring Bridge/Barbarian Ring. The major issue here is that unless you can get permanent advantage to leverage a Smokestack, you'll never be able to attack into them before they B.Ring you out of existence. TCrypt and Wheel of Sun and Moon both help out here. As with most stax mirrors, permanent advantage follows Crucible advantage, so getting those into a working order as fast as possible is directly responsible for winning most of your games.

[RockOfTheFormat]

There are soooo many graveyard based decks that I've decided that 3x T-Crypts are worth it, as you often will have some dead cards to pull for these matches anyhow. As far as O-ring, it seems that seal of cleansing is just better (look at the examples of what you want to hit), plus it can just sit on the board waiting for something to hit.
I also like Humility as an all around hoser.

Gambit is right that if you are going to play any gy hate, then make it free hate. If nothing else you get to sac it to your stax late to hold a lock more tightly. Against dredge you only need trinisphere and ghostly prison/moat to win. Against agro you only need Prison/moat and tab/gedon to win. Against combo you use chalice/trinisphere and then tabernacle/prison effect if they token (hope to win the die roll). Other than that, no GY combo has answers for the haterade that you pack in decks.

Playing angels and rings is just asking to lose. Something about creatures in Stax really doesn't sit well with me. Trying to use rings just because people want new white cards to find play is horrible ideology. I suggest better spells.

Humility in the main is better than rings... but work better in the side leaving MB room for flat out stronger cards. 4x wasteland = win (whoever plays "draw engines" in the form of horizon canopy is losing the innevitability of decking them under the lock). People underestimate some other removal that is really strong. I still think Gambit over values a 1 timer like Seal of Clensing. When will you ever need to remove less than 2 artifacts/enchantments in a single pop? (dreadnought is not necessary to remove since moat and prison will come out turn 2/3, and you have the tabernacle in redundancy. More fun to watch them struggle to make mana enough to attack, and then lose to an armageddon)

Board into Angels, and lose rings unless you just like to play foils that are cheap and useless. One of the top decks in the format that needs little innovation, so quit trying to make NLW (next level white) and just settle in behind a proven winner. If they have answers for every bomb, then so be it, but you are piloting a proven winner and should just set up shop in the happy zone.

[Nihil Credo]

There are soooo many graveyard based decks that I've decided that 3x T-Crypts are worth it, as you often will have some dead cards to pull for these matches anyhow.

No questions there. The problem is, are Crypts the best way to spend those 3 SB slots? In my opinion, no.

As far as O-ring, it seems that seal of cleansing is just better (look at the examples of what you want to hit), plus it can just sit on the board waiting for something to hit.

I agree, the case for Ring over Seal is not nearly as airtight as it looks. Seal has a very strong point in being better against Pernicious Deed (you don't lose a permanent when they blow it in response, and they don't get their stuff back with a second sweeper); however, I still favour Ring because it's friendlier with the mana base, with Chalice, and with Suppression Field. But the only creatures I tend to target with it are utility ones (Dark Confidant, Meddling Mage, etc.)

I also like Humility as an all around hoser.

Humility is a great card. The problem I have with it in this deck is that it's at its best against decks like Threshold or Eva Green, which you are in good shape against anyway. Against swarms like Goblins (or lesser decks like Slivers, Elves, etc.) it's worse than Windborn Muse. And against your worst matchups, like Landstill, it's fucking terrible.

I would strongly consider it for a meta full of a) Stompy decks (or any deck that quickly produces very big stuff); and b) Survival decks (fuck you, Harmonic Sliver).

Moon Stax (and red stax in general) has a couple advantages here that they'll try to exploit (and that you need to neutralize) to win the game. The biggest one is going to be Goblin Welder out of the sb. This must be answered (by an ORing or some combination of Geddon effects and Tabernacle effects) or you will likely lose the game in short order. The next is going to be Ensnaring Bridge/Barbarian Ring. The major issue here is that unless you can get permanent advantage to leverage a Smokestack, you'll never be able to attack into them before they B.Ring you out of existence. TCrypt and Wheel of Sun and Moon both help out here. As with most stax mirrors, permanent advantage follows Crucible advantage, so getting those into a working order as fast as possible is directly responsible for winning most of your games.

I agree with most of these, especially the Crucible part. Seriously, holding Crucible advantage has a ridiculously close to 1:1 correlation with winning Stax mirrors.

I would also like to add that Exalted Angels are a good way to steal wins in the Stax mirror. There's no standard Red Stax build, but either way there are good chances they'll cut down on the creature hate and focus on lock wars. Since you have tons of dead MD cards to side out, there's no reason not to bring in every threat you have.

Gambit is right that if you are going to play any gy hate, then make it free hate. If nothing else you get to sac it to your stax late to hold a lock more tightly.

I can agree with that. But I'm arguing against running hate at all.

Playing angels and rings is just asking to lose. Something about creatures in Stax really doesn't sit well with me.

We quit playing Wrath a while ago, you know. And while I can see the possibility of cutting on Exalted Angels, the Magi of the Tabernacle are pretty much printed to spec for this deck.

Trying to use rings just because people want new white cards to find play is horrible ideology. I suggest better spells.

I'm pretty sure that's not the reason.

Humility in the main is better than rings... but work better in the side leaving MB room for flat out stronger cards.

See above.

4x wasteland = win

Disagree, at least maindeck. For quite a few turns in the game, you have to pick between a) playing lock pieces and b) using Wasteland. The former is almost always the stronger play. Therefore, I advocate 2-3 Wastes main at most.

Of course, if one runs zero WW spells then he might need little enough coloured mana that he can afford the full playset anyway.

(whoever plays "draw engines" in the form of horizon canopy is losing the innevitability of decking them under the lock).

Sigh. Even once you get a full lock, it will be faster to kill with Mishra's Factory than by decking.

The reason not to play Horizon Canopy is because of the pain, not strategic considerations.

People underestimate some other removal that is really strong. I still think Gambit over values a 1 timer like Seal of Clensing. When will you ever need to remove less than 2 artifacts/enchantments in a single pop?

Crucible of Worlds
Pernicious Deed (they usually can't blow it up on the same turn)
Aether Vial

These three alone would be reason enough to board Disenchant effects.

(dreadnought is not necessary to remove since moat and prison will come out turn 2/3, and you have the tabernacle in redundancy. More fun to watch them struggle to make mana enough to attack, and then lose to an armageddon)

Dreadnought is one of the very few creatures this deck fears. Chalice@1 owns most of the decks that play it, but if it's Forced, you need to hit the *exact* tax-into-Armageddon plan or you're dead. If I didn't have any Seals or Rings to board in, I wouldn't like my chances of naturally getting that combo without any draw engine.

BTW, Kor Haven is fucking awesome against Dreadnought decks ;)

[Skeggi]

The 2 Oblivion Rings and the fourth Smokestack are the muta slots in my MD, which I want to change to something like: 1 Ravages of War, 1 Exalted Angel, 1...something...I'm pretty happy about my manabase though: yes with only 3 flagstones and only 3 cities; if you think it's a mistake, fine, but I like it the way it is :)

Anyway about the sideboard, what I hear is:

Dump your 3 Wheel of Sun and Moon and get 3 Tormod's Crypts.
Perhaps dump the 2 Defense Grid, the O Ring and the third Rule of Law and get Seal of Cleansing, Windborn Muse (don't they die?) and perhaps the fourth Magus?

[emidln]

I agree with most of these, especially the Crucible part. Seriously, holding Crucible advantage has a ridiculously close to 1:1 correlation with winning Stax mirrors.

Red Stax doesn't require Crucible advantage in the mirror like other Stax variants, although Moon Stax plays closer to a traditional Stax deck than other builds. Any builds that splash for Sylvan Library have the potential to go completely broken with Words enchantments. Builds can also randomly win on the back of Goblin Welder generating permanent advantage with Smokestack.

I would also like to add that Exalted Angels are a good way to steal wins in the Stax mirror. There's no standard Red Stax build, but either way there are good chances they'll cut down on the creature hate and focus on lock wars. Since you have tons of dead MD cards to side out, there's no reason not to bring in every threat you have.

Red Stax won't board out Ensnaring Bridge, which turns Exalted Angel into very expensive Smokestack fodder. The first things to get sideboarded out are Blood Moons and Trinispheres followed by Chalice of the Voids.

[Nihil Credo]

@Emidln: I can't answer the first claim without seeing the Moon Stax list that Skeggi was talking about, or the one you're talking about - Red Stax isn't exactly a metagame deck. The advice I gave was based on generic archetype experience.

As for the second, regardless of the specific list it's probably true that White Stax has plenty of stuff to SB out (first Trini, then Prison effects, then Chalice - this one's close because of Welder) and that it often doesn't have as much to bring in (Disenchant effects, including Rings, are the only standard inclusion).

Dump your 3 Wheel of Sun and Moon and get 3 Tormod's Crypts.
Perhaps dump the 2 Defense Grid, the O Ring and the third Rule of Law and get Seal of Cleansing, Windborn Muse (don't they die?) and perhaps the fourth Magus?

My advice, and I think Silverdragon said the same thing earlier, is that you should dump the Wheels for good, and don't play Crypts either.

Defense Grids shouldn't go, if anything they should increase to 3, as they're golden in the Landstill/Threshold matchup.

My earlier points against Rule of Law still stand.

As for Windborn Muse, they don't die much more than Magus does (Lightning Bolt being the main exception). Worst case, they'll swing for two in the air instead of blocking (it's difficult to race it *and* play spells).

If you have the money for it, an extra Tabernacle is better than a fourth Magus. While two Magi are better than two Tabernacles, a Tabernacle and a Magus is better than two Magi.

[RockOfTheFormat]

there are better disenchant effects, just ask Gambit, and if you want beaters, then play cards with effects that are rediculous. (some creatures do have great effects... not you exalted angel!)

[Gambit]

there are better disenchant effects, just ask Gambit, and if you want beaters, then play cards with effects that are rediculous. (some creatures do have great effects... not you exalted angel!)

I believe this was directed at me because I got wrecked by "Return To Dust" in a mirror match. I'm not fully convinced that is the best disenchant effect. I may try some in the board, but I really like seal of cleansing.

[The Wes]

Oh, so I split 1st and 2nd today in the legacy side event at the Enfield Vintage tourney. So before I forget what happened, and since I seem to have lost my note I took I thought I'd give a very quick mini report.

Deck List
4 x ancient tomb
2 x city of traitors
1 x horizon canopy
8 x plains
4 x wasteland
4 x flagstones
2 x tabernacle

2 x magus of the tabernacle
2 x windborn muse
3 x exalted angel

4 x chalice of the void
4 x ghostly prison
4 x crucible of the worlds
4 x mox diamond
4 x ghostly prison
3 x smokestack
3 x trinisphere
4 x armageddon
2 x cataclysm

Sideboard
4 x karmic justice
4 x suppression field
4 x oblivion ring
3 x defense grid

Ok, from what I remember without my notes it went something like this...

Round 1 vs. Ichorid
He wins the die roll and plays some land that makes me think he's a storm combo deck, so my turn one is chalice for 1 and 0. I quickly realize otherwise as he begins to dreadge like crazy, luckily a prison and tabernacle are able to keep him in check and we go to game 2. I sb out I think armageddons for s. fields.
Game 2 he quickly destroys me with ~35 damage worth of hasty zombie tokens.
Game 3 I get an early chalice followed by suppression field and 2 ghostly prisons, he finally gives when i have 2 prisons and 2 muses up and running.

Round 2 vs. Merfolk
Game one has a quick fish with a jitte kick my ass in short order. I sb'd in s. fields taking out my smokestacks.
Game two has me getting a turn 1 trini followed by turn 2 and 3 windborn muses and he scoops.
Grame three has me getting an early angel that goes the distance with the help of a prison followed by a cataclysm.

Round 3 vs. Survival (Di)
Don't remember much about this one except that I'm pretty sure I lost quickly. So, out go the chalices and smokestacks, in come 4 karmic justice and 3 s. fields.
Game 2 goes well for him until I play my magus, I call it a magus, he comments on it being a magus, then untaps and draws thinking it was a muse. The game went quickly to my favor after that.
Game 3 has him getting an early bob while i get a couple prisons out, a karmic justic, an s. field. I begin to wastelock him as bob goes the distance taking his life down by 5's a couple of times.

Round 4 vs. r/g/u thresh with sea drakes
At this point I'm the only one in the tourney 3-0 and will be in the top 4. Game one quickly goes against me as 4/5's and some untargetable 3/3's dominate me.
After the first game I realize that its after 6 on Father's Day and I still haven't called my dad to wish him one. So I decide to conceed the match and be the nice son my parents always wished I was.

Top 4. Rematch vs. Di and Survival
Knowing that his is the one deck that I really didn't want to play today I was excited to see that I get to play it all over again!
Game 1 I get out an early crucible and he walks into an armageddon followed by my land for the turn of a tabernacle. Out go the trinippheres, chalices, and smokestacks, in come the o rings, s fields, and karmic justices.
Game 2 I'm able to get a (i think) turn 2 attacking flipped exalted angel. The angel keeps my life total up while my karmics and s fields keep survival in its place as both my angel and his bob take his life down to zero over 3 turns.

1st and 2nd were split so I walked away with 2 nice tundra's to complete my playset.

Ok, first off I'd just want to say that the trini as a 3 of was only because I couldn't get ahold of a 4th and the 2 muses were a random last minute choice. The muses were great for me all day and I'm glad I used them, being able to run more than 4 prison effects just helps so much against decks like ichorid. I've always been iffy and back and forth on karmic justic but this has pretty much sold me on them for a permanent sb slot. Also the cataclysms worked out quite well throughout the day. I can definately see running them most of the time in at least at the very least a sb slot, especially with no access to ravages of war. Ok, its late, and I'm tired of typing.

[Skeggi]

Game 2 goes well for him until I play my magus, I call it a magus, he comments on it being a magus, then untaps and draws thinking it was a muse. The game went quickly to my favor after that.

The hidden powers of the Windborn Muse! This is brilliant I'll try them now for sure! :)

Just wondering though: how did Horizon Canopy work out for you MD? Did you really need the card-drawing, or were you more like; 'I wish I had a City of Traitors now.'

[The Wes]

Overall I'd at least go up to 3 city of traitors, but I've liked horizon canopy. This tourney I only drew it once and I think it cause me 1 damage total. But with workstation games and in testing its won me several games being able to draw 2 a turn mid to late game. I think the number of times its killed me with pain don't compare to the number of times that the extra draws have helped me. Over all I'd like to remove 2 plains and add in one more city and a kor keep. Nothing like being able to negate their one attacking goofy.

I'm also liking the synergy between muse and cataclysm. Nothing like having two prison effects after the cataclysm with them only at 1 land. Oh and another possitive thing about muse is that it almost always gets by counterballance, especially since thresh often tries to keep a 3cc spell on top when I'm playing againts them to stop my crucibles/trini/prison/o rings.

[Shawon]

Does Beseech the Queen have any potential in AStax? isn't too hard to achieve, with Cities and Tombs in the deck, and it can probably be due to Mox Diamond :) Perhaps 1 Beseech, so if you're stuck in the long game (which can happen) you have the versatility of choosing either an Exalted Angel or Armageddon (EDIT: or Crucible), either of which can end the game. I think I'll try a singleton Beseech the Queen and let you guys know what I think about it, but I just wanted to throw that card out there.

[Nihil Credo]

Does Beseech the Queen have any potential in AStax? isn't too hard to achieve, with Cities and Tombs in the deck, and it can probably be due to Mox Diamond :) Perhaps 1 Beseech, so if you're stuck in the long game (which can happen) you have the versatility of choosing either an Exalted Angel or Armageddon (EDIT: or Crucible), either of which can end the game. I think I'll try a singleton Beseech the Queen and let you guys know what I think about it, but I just wanted to throw that card out there.

Interesting idea; I think it's a long shot that it works (wouldn't play E. Angel if it couldn't be morphed), but not impossible. A more conservative option is to SB it to provide those Armageddons 5-6 against control decks, without paying for Ravages of War.

[Skeggi]

You have to reveal your card: I hate it when my opponent knows a Geddon is coming.

[Misplayer]

You have to reveal your card: I hate it when my opponent knows a Geddon is coming.

Won't most opponents assume a 'Geddon is coming as soon as they see Flagstones hit the table (i.e. once they recognize what you're playing)? Even if you spend a turn tutoring one up, that gives them chance to hold back one land, or at best cast something like Life from the Loam in preparation for an Armageddon. Regardless, I'm not a fan of BTQ in Stax just because it's usually a late game card, and this deck doesn't need a lot of late game help except for when you get your board wiped and go into topdeck mode, but you've usually lost at that point anyway.

Speaking of which, does this deck have any answers to Deed? The best I've come up with is locking them before they can play and activate in the same turn, and then hitting it with O-Ring. Also, could the emergence of more Deed-based control decks (It's the Fear, Vorosh Landstill, on top of stuff like The Rock) significantly weaken Stax in the format?

[Skeggi]

Speaking of which, does this deck have any answers to Deed? The best I've come up with is locking them before they can play and activate in the same turn, and then hitting it with O-Ring. Also, could the emergence of more Deed-based control decks (It's the Fear, Vorosh Landstill, on top of stuff like The Rock) significantly weaken Stax in the format?

Mainboard GeddonStax hardly has an answer to deed; other than you've just pointed out, and most even don't play O-ring mainboard.

Deed is perhaps the card this decks fears most; so often people have stuff against it in their sideboard: Seal of Cleansing, Aura of Silence, Karmic Justice and perhaps even Oblivion Ring; however; a deck with Pernicious Deed always has Krosan Grip in the sideboard, which provides another extra challenge.
Some people consider Academy Ruins against this; but this would just be a 1 of and therefor not stable enough to my likings, so this is the bit where I'm lost :)