[Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

If your main concern is combo, my SB suggestion would be

4x E. Tutor
1x CotV
1x Chill (for Belcher)
1x Spiritual Focus (for IGGy/FT)

Some combination of those and Elephant Grass work out decently, though it's still an uphill match.

But then, I haven't had a chance to actually test the Orim's Chant idea.

[Jak]

I am having trouble boarding in all my hate. I really want to be able to beat Landstill, MUC, and Thresh pretty easily. I expect a lot of it in the upcoming NW Tourney. Now here is my board.

3 City of Solitude
2 Choke
2 Karmic Justice
1 Dovescape
1 Sacred Ground
4 Orim's Chant
2 Krosan Grip

Against Landstill, I usually go like this.

-4 Elephant Grass
-1 O Ring
-1 Seal of Primordium
-1 Ground Seal
-3 Elvish Spirit Guide

+3 City
+2 Choke
+2 Justice
+1 Dovescape
+2 Grip

Now, Thresh has been a little harder. This is what I usually do.

-4 Ground Seal
-2 Exploration
-1 Seal of Primordium

+3 City
+2 Choke
+2 Grip

Would you side in Justice to combat EE? In testing, I haven't run into the situation much, but it is really hard to test on MWS. If I did side it in, I would probably side out 2 Gaea's Touch.

S, Iwas just wondering if this was correct? It is really hard to test against specific decks on MWS, so your help would help.

[Roputer]

Why tried nobody "Dueling Grounds"? I playing it since many months.

[Julian23]

@Jak:
First: Don't play Exploration! Replace it with Wild Growth and thus gain a permanent advantage over Landstill. Having more mana than them is key against Counter-heavy decks as this will open a window of about 1-2 turns for you where you'll usually be able to cast more stuff than they'll be able to counter. Needless to say that a resolved Replenish might very likely win you the game. Exploration provides no relevant advantage over Wild Growth because you'll rarely be able to play a 4th land on turn 2; besides that, you don't wanna keep a hand with 4 lands and exploration unless the other 2-3 cards are 2 Argothian Enchantress and e.g. Sterling Grove

Regarding your boarding: Don't board out Elvish Spirit Guide or Gaea's Touch against Landstill. Both cards provide additional mana sources (unlike Exploration) against Landstill to set up a "critical turn". You rather wanna get rid off additional Ground Seals.
I always board additional copies of Karmic Justice if I got stuff in my MB that's not helping in the matchup (e.g. Ground Seal vs. non-black Goblins). So if you're opponent runs Deed (like some Landstill variants do!) you just _gotta_ grap more Karmic Justice form the board. Against EE you can bring in additional ones if you find the room mainboard.

@Roputer: Because Solitary Confinement is just plain better! The only actual interaction I see is with Sacred Mesa...which would never make me run Dueling Grounds over Confinement.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Don't take out Seal of Primordium against Landstill. That's one of it's most useful match-ups.

I would take out all Solitary Confinements but one in both those match-ups.

[Jak]

@Jak:
First: Don't play Exploration! Replace it with Wild Growth and thus gain a permanent advantage over Landstill. Having more mana than them is key against Counter-heavy decks as this will open a window of about 1-2 turns for you where you'll usually be able to cast more stuff than they'll be able to counter. Needless to say that a resolved Replenish might very likely win you the game. Exploration provides no relevant advantage over Wild Growth because you'll rarely be able to play a 4th land on turn 2; besides that, you don't wanna keep a hand with 4 lands and exploration unless the other 2-3 cards are 2 Argothian Enchantress and e.g. Sterling Grove

Regarding your boarding: Don't board out Elvish Spirit Guide or Gaea's Touch against Landstill. Both cards provide additional mana sources (unlike Exploration) against Landstill to set up a "critical turn". You rather wanna get rid off additional Ground Seals.
I always board additional copies of Karmic Justice if I got stuff in my MB that's not helping in the matchup (e.g. Ground Seal vs. non-black Goblins). So if you're opponent runs Deed (like some Landstill variants do!) you just _gotta_ grap more Karmic Justice form the board. Against EE you can bring in additional ones if you find the room mainboard.

@Roputer: Because Solitary Confinement is just plain better! The only actual interaction I see is with Sacred Mesa...which would never make me run Dueling Grounds over Confinement.

Hmm I do agree with you about the Wild Growth thing. Exploration doesn't do much against Landstill but speed the deck up slightly. Thay will have counters so that won't matter. I'll try out 2 Growths in place of Exploration and see how it goes.

I don't ever board out Touch. I board out ESG because it was more of a speed thing. I am still feeling the MU because I am unsure if I should bait counters to make sure my Justice or Enchantress or Replenish resolves, or just go all out with it and just cast and cast those enchantments. Both strategies have worked pre-board where I play it slow until I resolve that Justice and then win or I get a fast start and just out CA them. Not sure which strategy is better.

I want to leave Ground Seal in because it digs. Playing it will just allow me to cycle through my deck looking for some bombs. I never really liked ESG against Landstill because it was often dead. I have beaten down with it though so maybe it is better to have.

At Spat:

I agree. I like it against Thresh just because they can win faster and using it as a Fog effect to buy time has been awesome. I'm going to try this plan on MWS (hopefully finding someone decent to play)

Landstill
-2 Confinement
-4 Elephant Grass
-1 Oblivion Ring
-3 Ground Seal

+3 City
+2 Choke
+2 Karmic Justice
+1 Dovescape
+2 Grip

Thresh
-1 Seal
-4 Ground Seal
-2 Accel (Exploration/Growth)
(-2 Gaea's Touch if I board in Justice)

+3 City
+2 Choke
+2 Grip
(+2 Justice if I see a lot of EE)

Now I have been thinking about running Chrome Mox. I have kept a few 1 land, ESG handers with Argothian. Chrome Mox would have been so much better. I can see where it would hurt, though, because there are times where you need the mana and the card. I doubt that happens a lot so I am going to test it. Just wondering, has anyone had any experience with it?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Exploration provides no relevant advantage over Wild Growth because you'll rarely be able to play a 4th land on turn 2; besides that, you don't wanna keep a hand with 4 lands and exploration unless the other 2-3 cards are 2 Argothian Enchantress and e.g. Sterling Grove.

Question; how often does Enchantress win by turn 2?

[Brehn]

Oh come on, don't start this all over again.

Question: How many hands suddenly are keepable if you switch your Explorations for Wild Growths?

etc, etc.
I'm very surprised that after infinite arguments there are still people believing that Exploration doesn't suck. Reminds me somewhat of Mental Note in Threshold.

[Jak]

Oh come on, don't start this all over again.

Question: How many hands suddenly are keepable if you switch your Explorations for Wild Growths?

etc, etc.
I'm very surprised that after infinite arguments there are still people believing that Exploration doesn't suck. Reminds me somewhat of Mental Note in Threshold.

That is because it doesn't suck. There is a turn, probably 4 or 5, where my list goes crazy. Exploration and Touch allow this. That really helps against stuff like aggro and burn to set up a confinement lock. Against Thresh, they are both pretty good. Being able to setup fast before Balance helps. Wild Growth allows the deck to get some more mana but since my list is faster, so does Exploration. Against Landstill, I side out accel anyway. Preboard, they bothare about even. Getting land drops down so you can apply pressure early is probably better than something that gets Deeded away.

[Brehn]

There is a turn, probably 4 or 5, where my list goes crazy. Exploration and Touch allow this. That really helps against stuff like aggro and burn to set up a confinement lock.

Great, a card to help your good matchups. Hey, what about running 4 Ghostly Prison in the board? I heard it's good against Goblins.

Against Thresh, they are both pretty good. Being able to setup fast before Balance helps.

How does Wild Growth prevent you from setting up?

Wild Growth allows the deck to get some more mana but since my list probably plays more than 23 lands, so does Exploration.

Corrected. Otherwise that statement wouldn't be true.

Preboard, they bothare about even. Getting land drops down so you can apply pressure early is probably better than something that gets Deeded away.

Getting extra land drops down = drawing lands = being mana flooded = Not Pressure.


"But Mental Note really helps getting Threshold!"

[Jak]

...

This deck doesn't function without Enchantress Effects. Exploration is better than Wild Growth is you have enchantress effects down. They are both good, I just find Exploration to be better when I really need to keep going with the combo.

[ebbitten]

mental note wasn't that bad in URG tempo thresh pre goyf to be honest.

As far as wild growth v exploration i switched over to growth about a year ago, and while it does make the deck slightly less explosive in the later turns you honostly are rarely racing for an extra mana or 2 turn 4-5+, its the beggining of the game were you want to get keepable hands so your enchantress effects can blow through the late game

[Brehn]

This deck doesn't function without Enchantress Effects. Exploration is better than Wild Growth is you have enchantress effects down. They are both good, I just find Exploration to be better when I really need to keep going with the combo.

True. But don't forget that Wild Growth gets you the Enchantress effects down. With Exploration, way too many 2-land hands are a mulligan. Mulligans don't help getting Enchantress effects down. Getting the engine started in the first place > Working better with the engine online. Maybe you could compare Enchantress with 4 Exploration to Landstill with 4 Factories, 4 Mutavaults, 4 Decrees and 4 Wastelands. Sure you can operate under Standstill much better than the usual lists. But what gives you the blue mana in the first place? Don't you have to take too many mulligans?

Edit:

mental note wasn't that bad in URG tempo thresh pre goyf to be honest.

Exploration wasn't that bad in 2003 Extended Enchantress to be honest.
Both cards just stopped being good.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

True. But don't forget that Wild Growth gets you the Enchantress effects down. With Exploration, way too many 2-land hands are a mulligan.

Only if the rest of your curve is sucky and over-priced.

Mulligans don't help getting Enchantress effects down. Getting the engine started in the first place > Working better with the engine online.

That's ridiculous. What good is getting the engine online if getting the engine online doesn't mean winning?

Exploration speeds you up at least a turn. Turn 3 becomes turn 4, turn 4 becomes turn 5 or 6, turn 5 becomes the kill.

Maybe you could compare Enchantress with 4 Exploration to Landstill with 4 Factories, 4 Mutavaults, 4 Decrees and 4 Wastelands. Sure you can operate under Standstill much better than the usual lists. But what gives you the blue mana in the first place? Don't you have to take too many mulligans?

No you can't.

Oh come on, don't start this all over again.

Funny, I didn't think I was.

Question: How many hands suddenly are keepable if you switch your Explorations for Wild Growths?

I'd rather have games won than hands kept.


The bottom line is that you guys aren't playing Legacy Enchantress, you're playing Parfait with a Draw Engine. I guess if I was playing Parfait with a Draw Engine, I wouldn't see any need for Exploration either. However, in Enchantress, the card is priceless when going off.

[Jak]

Agree. When I get one Enchantress effect down, I want to take advantage of it.

[caiomarcos]

What about a 2/2 split?
Only recently I included a 1 of Wild Growth and yes, it's pretty good, but so is Exploration.
I was playing 4/3/1 (utopia/exploration/growth) and 21 lands, but now I want to lower my land count, so I'll have to let go another Exploration, going for the 2/2 split. Doesn't this numbers pleases everyone?

[Melwis]

Could someone tell me what the most common version of Enchantress looks like? Not card by card but still, just the basic layout and what cards that are auto-includes in most lists.

I just faced a mono green version of Enchantress on MWS and it was sick. He had Exploration, Wild Growth, Utopia and lots of Enchantress cards . When he got low on mana he played Early Harvest and then continued drawing his whole deck (almost atleast). Then he played Concordant Crossroads followed by Taunting Elf and 2-4 Yavimaya Enchantress's and swinged ftw..

He managed to all this with no sweat 2 turns in a row even though I Vindicated his Enchantress effects a few times and such. Very consistent deck it seemed. Do you guys recognize this deck and are there much better versions of Enchantress out there even tough this seemed strong?

[Funky-kun]

The thing you encountered is Turbo Enchantress. I've come across a couple of lists of that build. Basically it is a more combo oriented build using Early Harvest, Exploration and Gaea's Touch to continue playing spells, and usually finishes with Hunting Pack for a lot of 4/4s.

The more common builds of Enchantress are more control oriented, first concentrated on locking the opponent so that he can't do anything threatening (via Sterling Grove, Solidary Confinement, Moat, Elephant Grass and such) and then finishes with singleton enchantments that win the game, mostly Words of War. The draw engine is provided by Argothian Enchantress and Enchantress's Presence. Some lists also include Replenish as a late-game bomb.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Other than budget, there's no reason to not splash white. You get Serra's Sanctum, Sterling Grove, Solitary Confinement, AND Replenish, at the very least, in addition to options like Sacred Mesa, Aura of Silence, Moat, Oblivion Ring, Sacred Ground and Karmic Justice.

The assumed cards are

8x Enchantresses
8-10x Acceleration effects (Utopia Sprawl, Wild Growth, Exploration)
2-3x Replenish
3-4x Sterling Grove
3-4x Elephant Grass
2-3x Solitary Confinement
1x Words of War

various other utility spells and kill conditions, with 19-21 lands or so.

[caiomarcos]

How does this deck beat Cephalid Breakfast?