I can't possibly believe that you can support a deck with 4 Smallpox, 4 Poxes and 2 Deathclouds off of just 22 land!!!
25 is the minimum unless you're playing Flagstones IMO and that's without the death clouds.
I would cut Death Cloud and Engineered Plague for Rancid Earth or Thoughtseize or something.
Otherwise, the build looks cool.
Sample Contamination Deck
Utility
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Beseech the Queen
Threats
4 Bitterblossom
3 Nether Spirit
Disruption
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Contamination
4 Damnation
Mana
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
3 Sheltered Valley
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
5 Swamp
IMO, Contamination doest work very well, and is an autoloss against Black decks.
well that's why i run dark rituals and 1 totem. to me death cloud is the other small pox. :D i would prefer 6 of those if i could. i usually death cloud for 1 or i death cloud for a bunch as a finisher.
also remember i am running sheltered valley and thus i can't run wastelands because i dont want that many non-black lands. also clark i looked at your deck list. i like but the playstyle is definitely different. i used to run damnations; however, the pox effects are better. most of the time death cloud is your damnation. ie a death cloud for say 2 is as good if not better than damnation since you also nurter their hand and their lands.
bitterblossom, idol, and spirit carry you to victory. i love the bitterblossom because it is evasive attackers where as idol, spirit, and totem can only swing when the coast is clear.
Originally Posted by Clark Kant
Stop arguing with him, you know it's not going to go anywhere.I can't possibly believe
This is the only thread on the whole board where deck lists keep getting worse and worse as it goes on.
I mean, seriously, look at them, it's like they're worried about their ELVES matchup and not TES.
Top Deck
A few things I would change.
Replace Dark Rit. with Moxes (Diamonds or Chrome, whichever you prefer). I think I counted 22 cards that cost 1 or 2 in the deck, with Mox you can cast any of your 2 drops on turn 1 without any burn and you have the extra mana for the next turn and there after. A turn 1 BitterBlossom is my favorite play, but there is no reason to take the extra pain of burn when you really dont need to.
I tried DeathCloud for a little while and found that even just to cast it as a SmallPox it was to expensive. 4 Mana for a SmallPox is to much. 99.99% of the time I would have been better off with a Damnation for the same cost.
I would run some card draw of the top. I use Bottled Cloister, but you could try out Night's Whisper, Skel. Scrying, Ph. Arena or something else.
If I had to say which of those 3 things would make the largest difference in your deck's playability it would be the card draw.
I still think that the lists posted in the opening post are pretty close to optimal if you're sticking with the monoblack build.
Mox is certainly interesting. But Honestly, I see a lot more potential in Chrome Mox than in Mox Diamond.
With all the pox effects, it seems like you can never have too many lands in your opening hand. Chrome Mox's card disadvantage can be compensated for with Pox.
"I still think that the lists posted in the opening post are pretty close to optimal if you're sticking with the monoblack build."
They might be, but those posts are 2 years old. BitterBlossom wasnt even printed yet. While I would say almost anything in the deck could be argued for or against (and I did say almost anything), if BBlossom was in print 2 years ago I think it would have been seen as an auto-include.
Chrom vs Diamond...
I've used both. Maybe it is because I have 4 diamonds and 3 totems that I am not as worried about needing land. Combined with not really wanting more than 3 anyway I just tend to find myself more willing to pitch a land on turn 1 or 2 for a diamond, than to pitch a spell for a chrome.
Besides, you helped talk me into running C.Worlds, now I have even less fear of being short of land.
I don't think so. No one has established why they think bitterblossom is a great card for pox: It doesn't seem like a relevant card. Match ups that you win with it, you would have won anyways (and probably a few turns faster) with a classic pox list, and matchups where you'd get smashed in the face for using it (burn, tendrils, etc.), your deck doesn't have *any* answers for them, either.if BBlossom was in print 2 years ago I think it would have been seen as an auto-include.
Seriously, 4 powderkegs main, 4 chalice of the void in the board, seems like a necessity in the modern metagame. Meanwhile, you're spending how many mana on ... bottled cloister? (4 mana spells don't play nice with sheltered valley.) If you were playing grafted skullcap with ensnaring bridge, I could understand it.
RLeader, I'm starting to think you have no idea what you are talking about with Pox.
BitterBlossom is the only threat anyone mentioned that can:
1) be played on turn,
2) kill all by itself on turn 8,
3) does not require additional mana to power,
4) can not simply be blocked,
5) leaves creature removal all but useless,
6) and plays well with the rest of the cards in your own deck.
Every other commonly used kill-con for Pox fails at lest of of the above. BBlossom allows you to cast your threat, as early as turn 1, and then use your resources to cast disruption. Things like NetherSpirit, Mishra's, TombS, and Totems can come online a few turns later if needed, but BBlossom has already applied the pressure, every other threat is often just clean-up.
SValley and BCloister work fine together. How? Who says I need 4 land in play to cast it? I run 23 land but I also run 7 mana producing arts. I often will stop playing land when I hit 3 and use it as the pitch cards for Small/Pox.
If I do have 4 lands in play it is likely I am about to lose one to a Small/Pox, sac a wasteland, or dropping an extra Mishra's for finish the game.
The one thing I do argee with is the 4 PowderKegs. I have often thought about moving the 3rd and 4th into the maindeck. CotV screws with me more than i would like. I have enough disruption that I can ignore using them.
You don't have leyline of the void in your sideboard; that kinda makes one doubt the strength of your metagame and the conclusions you make about the "winningness" of bitterblossom.RLeader, I'm starting to think you have no idea what you are talking about with Pox.
Show up at a tourney where you play against TES (with Ill Gotten Gains tech)/Ichorid/4-color Landstill (yeah, bitterblossom is *awesome* vs someone who can play Pernicious Deed and recur engineered explosives! And they'll find them 50x faster than you'll find your pithing needles!).
Play against those decks, one after the next, believe me, you won't be bragging about how no one can block your pixie army that kills on turn 8!
LeyLine of the Void! How could I forget to include it!?!?! It is basicly an auto win against everything! Of course, Pox is a deck that doesnt like to mul. so I better get it in my opening hand or I will spend an entire turn hard casting a card that maybe hitting play too late to be effective.
I don't recall ever bragging about my "pixie army", just pointing out that it plays well with the rest of the deck. That it has some advantages over other commonly played cards.
I will admit my local T1.5 player pool is slim. Thankfully I can play online. Not a lot of anything in Austin other then T2 and draft but if you would like to show me how weak my deck is let me know. I would love to see how good the the great rleader really is.
Message me and let me know when you would like to teach me my lesson.
Hey, you're the one who turned this into a personal argument; I'm not sure why you're acting aggrieved.
The idea of Leyline isn't to desperately mulligan into it: if you don't have it in your opening hand, you obviously have a hand filled with other cards in your deck like extirpate and/or chalice of the void and/or powderkeg. I do like the new Faery Macabre, too, though, as it works fairly well under an opponent's Ill Gotten Gains. Multiple options are necessary.
The point, is, is that you need two extirpates, not one, to stop Ichorid, as they can simply beat you down with their namesake card if they can't combo out. Decks like TES have so many solutions now with their wishboards (and they can wish back cards you extirpate) that you can't necessarily stop them with just one kind defense.
I think all pox decks need powderkeg maindeck (and maybe a few extirpates) as well as, from the board, to be able to chalice for zero/one and play a trinisphere as fast as possible.
Combo decks today are fairly resistant to both discard and land destruction.
If a control deck is going to use LD cards, they really have to commit. 3 sinkholes / 3 wastelands / 2 poxes aren't really going to cut it, IMO.
Pox as a deck is really just a budget and more inconsistant version of 4 color landstill (though pox has the advantage of playing games much faster, win or lose, so you don't have to worry about tiebreakers so much). They play pretty much the same in a lot of ways.
I think Mox Diamond isn't quite a combo with Bitter Blossom because other control decks will often be using Pernicious Deed to kill the latter. That doesn't mean Mox Diamond is a horrible choice over dark ritual, only that your particular deck gives other control decks a serious route to card advantage with their own removal. Unless a pox player can waste-lock a Landstill deck early on in the game (always a good time), they have all the momentum: odds are, they'll find their extirpates before you will, and they often have more recursion for their own stuff like engineered explosives.
Bitterblossom is a great card.
But Tombstalker is still by far the best threat Pox has imho.
It's surprisingly resilient, even more so than Bitterblossom.
Here's a list of cards it ignores that Goyf and in many cases BB succumbs to.
Spell Snare,
Engineered Explosives,
Regenerators
Deed,
Chalice at 2,
Counterbalance + Top,
Shackles,
Shriekmaw
Powder Keg,
The 3cc Control Magic for creatures with 2cc or less,
Smother,
Snuff Out,
Ghastly Demise,
most black based removal
Add to this the fact that Tombstalker is a three turn clock after a Pox, and doesn't cost you life like BB does, and it's not really a competition.
stalker isn't too shaby, but i have been replacing it more with bitterblossom and grafted wargear.
the thing is stalker is vulnerable to spot removal like stp where as bitterblossom tokens aren't that weak to them. sure you can kill one off but you can't keep killing them. with wargear i think bitterblossom takes it over stalker in my opinion.
also i have been using the rack main board and going with a disruption base now of:
4 duress (probably should be thoughtseize)
4 hymn
4 small pox
4 pox
4 sinkhole
my threats now are:
4 bitterblossom
1 nether spirit
4 the rack
4 grafted wargear
EDIT: one more thing to mention about stalker is. after you cast stalker you tend NOT to want to cast small pox or pox, but with bitterblossom in play you really dont care.
If you're playing full mishra's factories and two nether spirits, often you can get away with it. Also, it's generally not that hard to keep decks that use swords of plowshares off of white mana these days: when they get to sacrifice their own lands, white is usually the first to go as they need green for their win condition and believe that blue will help them find white again.EDIT: one more thing to mention about stalker is. after you cast stalker you tend NOT to want to cast small pox or pox, but with bitterblossom in play you really dont care.
I agree that faeries and wargear are neat, but then you're creating a two card combo (mishra's factory + wargear, not a combo) for the deck, where the wargear is a useless draw on its own, without a particular other card. IMO that's a bit dangerous.
i can see where you are coming from. you seem to want diversity; however, i think most of the damage will be done with the rack + our massive amounts of card denial/discard. it is so strong that i might want to add that new discard spell from evetide (raven's crime?). mishra and other guys are ground dudes. tombstalker's biggest asset is that it has flying. bitterblossom dudes have flying and keep coming out EVERY turn which is fantastic with the wargear.
you dont care if you pox/smallpox with bitterblossom guys in play since you'll just make more. mishra factories are weak to wasteland (ran in nearly every deck these days). but our monoblack version doesn't really have wasteland targets aside from sheltered valley, and losing the valley is mediocre at best since it is there to help against bitterblossom.
OUR WASTELANDs > their wastelands ;)mishra factories are weak to wasteland (ran in nearly every deck these days).
Seriously, opponents throwing away their own lands are just asking for trouble. If you win game one, usually, they just keep their wastelands to sacrifice to pox effects in order to prevent color screw.
I'm a big fan of waste-lock though so I run with three crucibles unless I'm expecting matchups that would render it irrelevant; thus I've activated mishra's tons of times before poxing.
I play monoblack too (4 waste/3 mishra/4 urborg) and if I were going to toss in a funny land, I'd probably take maze of ith or tabernacle (ok, that's in an alternate universe for me personally) over valley. I played with it two years ago and it was nice but never game changing for me: never really changed whether I won or lost.
Well said rleader.
I really can't see this threat base being very good. Bitterblossom and Nether Spirit are both good.
But The Rack as has been covered before just isn't that strong. If you waste their lands, they will be holding a fistful of cards being able to play only one a turn at best. The Rack does nothing there.
Grafted Wargear just doesn't belong. The only card it works well with is Bitterblossom, if you don't have a bitterblossom or can't keep it in play, then it's worthless.
If you're willing to play something like Wargear that is useless without the other piece. Why not just play Painter's Servant and Grindstone? You could even play 4 Beseech. I actually think that would be a fairly strong to go that route as well.
You should absolutely be playing. 3-4 Tombstalker, 2-3 Crucible, 3 Mishra's Factory and 4 Wasteland.
two years ago was before they invented bitterblossom. the card is fantastic in the deck. it makes dudes with evasion every turn. with valley, it costs no life and without valley it costs nothing.
no i disagree our wastelands are greater than their's. i had wasteland in the deck before and without a crucible lock it is a waste of time. you aren't going to stop vial with it anyhow right?
@clark. go ahead and play stalker.... he just seems very subpar from my experiences in the deck. if you dont like wargear why not try delirium skeins. that card is so strong with the rack.
anyhow i think we are talking about different approaches to lock down the opponent. if you think we can focus in on land denial with some card disruption then sure wasteland lock and what not could be good, but focusing on LD is just a bad game plan in pox in my opinion.
i think it is better to focus in on general disruption, and hit the hand. for instance if you cast small pox you get a card + a land which is 2 cards and if you get the critter then great another card.
overall the deck seems more about card advantage and taking everyone down to zero cards. this is where the rack shines. same thing with bitterblossom + wargear.
also bitterblossom seems to be very good with tech cards like gate to phyrexia.
When you run Sinkhole, Pox and Smallpox, your wastelands are most definitely better than theirs. Unless you've been cutting those too?
The Rack is 3 damage a turn max, presuming they discard a lot, and play no card draw. Tombstalker is brilliant as a 5/5 Flier for 2. Nether Spirit is even better, and should definitely be run 4 of.@clark. go ahead and play stalker.... he just seems very subpar from my experiences in the deck. if you dont like wargear why not try delirium skeins. that card is so strong with the rack.
So, you suggest that Pox should do what it's been doing, but that that plan is wrong?anyhow i think we are talking about different approaches to lock down the opponent. if you think we can focus in on land denial with some card disruption then sure wasteland lock and what not could be good, but focusing on LD is just a bad game plan in pox in my opinion.
None of these cards have any coherency with Pox, or the other important cards. They're just random threats. Sure, they might have no cards in hand, but when you blow a Pox, you definitely want Nether Spirit in hand, not Bitterblossom.overall the deck seems more about card advantage and taking everyone down to zero cards. this is where the rack shines. same thing with bitterblossom + wargear.
What I can't understand about this, is that if all the bitterblossom acolytes aren't worried about any of the tier 1 combo or control decks and are fixated on decks like goblins ("why bother with wasteland when aether vial exists!"), filling their sideboards with cards like engineered plague:
Why aren't they worried about other people in their metagame using engineered plague, too?
Because that certainly impacts the value of bitterblossom.
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