[OLD] UGw Threshold

[Internet Hate Machine]

Ive been toying around with my 5c ish list (posted a page back) on MWS and have encountered some problems.

For reference, heres the list as it is now -


// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [5E] City of Brass
2 [R] Tundra
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [IA] Island (2)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
2 [OD] Mystic Enforcer

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [NE] Daze
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [5E] Brainstorm
1 [5E] Portent
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [9E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [DIS] Trygon Predator

The main problems I encountered were oddly enough with consistancy. Granted this may be somewhat attributed to the terrible shuffling on MWS but it felt like it was enough to merit some concern.

I often had to mull because of hands with 1 land and no cantrips or no lands at all, which is a problem I have never encountered playing threshold in real life, also, I was only able to find a force of will around 25% of the time, and that's being generous. Has anyone else had similar problems with threshold on MWS, or do I just have the worst luck in the world?

Some comments ~ After trying 17 lands, it feels like 18 are needed for 5c manabase stability, though I am convinced that 3 Cities are better than four (Granted I am not playing thoughseize.) Oblivion ring is rather useful, as it helps you not randomly lose to Moats or Humility in control, though vindicate seems like it would be more solid in accomplishing the same thing. Mystic enforcer is definately better than hoofprints here, as it can come in and save you in a good many MUs. Serenity seemed rather weak in most MUs where it was worth boarding, so its board slots have been taken by predators for now.

[ParkerLewis]

Some comments ~ After trying 17 lands, it feels like 18 are needed for 5c manabase stability, though I am convinced that 3 Cities are better than four (Granted I am not playing thoughseize.)

I'm not an UGb/5c player, but aren't Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant the main incentive to splash/play black ? I mean, I agree you only have so much slots, but still, you're splashing two colors only for Clasm and Extirpate. Clasm is understandable, it's been done before and can be useful in the appropriate meta. But Extirpate... doesn't seem to justify splashing black by itself.

Plus, it wreaks havoc on your manabase. Only one basic, City of Brass... True, I guess you wouldn't play such a list in a meta where you expect some manabase hate, but it really seems very vulnerable.

I guess my point would be, either get rid of black and rebuild a safer, more consistent manabase with 4 colors, or try to find some slots for black goodness main. I guess the slots that could be tinkered with are the 1x Portent and especially the four Spell Snare. Thresh always wants to use all of its (very few) mana on its own turn (hence the free counters), and spell snare forces you to keep U open if you want to be able to use it (and you d'ont even know if you'll end up using it or if you just wasted the opportunity to play somehting). Thoughtseize seems the perfect replacement : at least you're sure to remove their main threat.

Maybe you could try removing the 3x City for +1 Bloodstained Mire (the red-black fetch ?), +1 Underground Sea, +1 Basic (probably a Forest).

On the mull issues... IIRC, you have ~40 % chance of having at least one of a 4-ouf in your starting 7 (that's for the force of will issue). So i guess it was bad luck on this part. With a 8 or 9-of (cantrips), the probability of having at least one is 65-70 %... so not having one is one out of three - it's not that uncommon.

[Internet Hate Machine]

I'm not an UGb/5c player, but aren't Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant the main incentive to splash/play black ? I mean, I agree you only have so much slots, but still, you're splashing two colors only for Clasm and Extirpate. Clasm is understandable, it's been done before and can be useful in the appropriate meta. But Extirpate... doesn't seem to justify splashing black by itself.

Actually, so far in testing extirpate has been worth its weight in gold. It comes in alot more than you would think and is generally not disapointing, so its really worth the one land to splash for it, also in the tournaments I am testing for I expect to see some dredge and I dont want to punt the match.

Plus, it wreaks havoc on your manabase. Only one basic, City of Brass... True, I guess you wouldn't play such a list in a meta where you expect some manabase hate, but it really seems very vulnerable.

I've been able to play around wasteland to a reasonable degree, provided I dont get triple wasted early on or something devastating like that, so its not as vulnerable as even I expected it to be (Extirpate from the side can also help here). Moon effects, on the other hand, are a killing, hence the BEBs in the side and singleton basic island.

I guess my point would be, either get rid of black and rebuild a safer, more consistent manabase with 4 colors, or try to find some slots for black goodness main. I guess the slots that could be tinkered with are the 1x Portent and especially the four Spell Snare. Thresh always wants to use all of its (very few) mana on its own turn (hence the free counters), and spell snare forces you to keep U open if you want to be able to use it (and you d'ont even know if you'll end up using it or if you just wasted the opportunity to play somehting). Thoughtseize seems the perfect replacement : at least you're sure to remove their main threat.

Only reason Im not currently playing 'seize is funding. I was testing the deck for an upcoming tournament, and Ill be picking up thoughtseizes as soon as I can. Also, vindicate may be used, but Im not sure of my stance on that yet.

On the mull issues... IIRC, you have ~40 % chance of having at least one of a 4-ouf in your starting 7 (that's for the force of will issue). So i guess it was bad luck on this part. With a 8 or 9-of (cantrips), the probability of having at least one is 65-70 %... so not having one is one out of three - it's not that uncommon.

Well, I mean I went whole games without seeing a force, some matches even. Alot of the time I would look through my deck and find them all clumped up near the bottom, so I think MWS may be partly to blame, combined with my naturally disapointing luck I suppose. My main issue was that the deck runs alot less consistantly than it does in real-world playing, which I found odd.

[Adan]

Actually, so far in testing extirpate has been worth its weight in gold. It comes in alot more than you would think and is generally not disapointing, so its really worth the one land to splash for it, also in the tournaments I am testing for I expect to see some dredge and I dont want to punt the match.

Why don't you simply play the Hatfield's 5color Thresh or the standard UGW Threshold? You have the 5color Manabase, but your maindeck is still UGW. And you are only playing that manabase für SB Extirpate and SB Pyroclasm.

In my opinion, this can't ever justify the constellation of the manabase.

The Ichorid matchup won't become better just because of 3 Extirpates. if you are really afraid of Ichorid, try the UGB build. It has also got access to Engineered plagues if you are really afraid of Goblins. The only reason why I sometimes don't dare to play it is the randomness of our meta (try to Smother a Frogmite/Myr Enforcer or Dragonstompy creatures).

Goblins can also be won easily, you just have to play aggressive. Clemens and I are simply playing 6 BEBs, which gives you 10 removalspells against Goblins. It works perfectly.

Against Ichorid, you have at least Jotun Grunt, Wheel of Sun and Moon and Dueling Grounds as viable SB options (and Tormod's Crypt of course).

[thefreakaccident]

You can also run ghostly prison/propaganda, as I have found it basically shuts down ichorid (they attack with a 3/1 each turn that a goyf can eat up)... it is also pretty good in the goblins MU (they attack with 1-2 creatures, if they do not play threats on their turn)...

Add the fact that it is primarily a stall tactic (but isn't every sideboard card against goblins/ichorid just a stall tactic?)...

Anyways, they're actually quite good, you guys should try them (oh yeah, and they aren't dead against non0tribal agro, like plague is)...

[Internet Hate Machine]

Why don't you simply play the Hatfield's 5color Thresh or the standard UGW Threshold? You have the 5color Manabase, but your maindeck is still UGW. And you are only playing that manabase für SB Extirpate and SB Pyroclasm.

In my opinion, this can't ever justify the constellation of the manabase.

The Ichorid matchup won't become better just because of 3 Extirpates. if you are really afraid of Ichorid, try the UGB build. It has also got access to Engineered plagues if you are really afraid of Goblins. The only reason why I sometimes don't dare to play it is the randomness of our meta (try to Smother a Frogmite/Myr Enforcer or Dragonstompy creatures).

Goblins can also be won easily, you just have to play aggressive. Clemens and I are simply playing 6 BEBs, which gives you 10 removalspells against Goblins. It works perfectly.

Against Ichorid, you have at least Jotun Grunt, Wheel of Sun and Moon and Dueling Grounds as viable SB options (and Tormod's Crypt of course).

Well, the deck is going to go through alot of changes, and I would be playing a close to netdecked build of 5c if I hadn't run out of money short of thoughtseize. Those things are damned expensive. I am expecting a pretty random metagame, so the main idea was to prepare for as many things as possible, hence I went with the 5c for the best sideboard options. The board/MD will change after some metagaming though, I am kind of stuck with one place to play tournaments at in my area, and they arent big ones. I found snare to be next to useless against randomness, and on mws I always seem to draw them more than I need. What do you think would be a reasonable stand in for the thoughtseize slots until our team can pick up a set?

[Adan]

Well, the deck is going to go through alot of changes, and I would be playing a close to netdecked build of 5c if I hadn't run out of money short of thoughtseize. Those things are damned expensive. I am expecting a pretty random metagame, so the main idea was to prepare for as many things as possible, hence I went with the 5c for the best sideboard options. The board/MD will change after some metagaming though, I am kind of stuck with one place to play tournaments at in my area, and they arent big ones. I found snare to be next to useless against randomness, and on mws I always seem to draw them more than I need. What do you think would be a reasonable stand in for the thoughtseize slots until our team can pick up a set?

I would not play 5colored if I wouldn't have cacess to Thoughtseizes. Thoughtseize were one of two reasons to splash Black. The other reason would be Dark Confidant, but he pretty much flops in combination with Cities.

Play the usual UGW with Needles, they are almost as versatile as Thoughtseize and very good against Landstill which gains more and more popularity.

I'm still not sure about Oblivion Ring, though.

[raharu]

I would not play 5colored if I wouldn't have cacess to Thoughtseizes. Thoughtseize were one of two reasons to splash Black. The other reason would be Dark Confidant, but he pretty much flops in combination with Cities.

Play the usual UGW with Needles, they are almost as versatile as Thoughtseize and very good against Landstill which gains more and more popularity.

I'm still not sure about Oblivion Ring, though.

Rings are handy for not dying to Moat control/ random arts and enchantments. I argee abou the Needles though, they're wonderful and don't afraid of most things.

[hypeiv]

It is always a problem if you can't daze the opponent's turn 1 on the draw. Wasting Force of Will on Dazeable things is the worst thing ever to do.




Wastelands help with threshold as much as Fetchlands do. They are both Stifleable and Wasteland doesn't do as much for your gameplan as basically any choose-your-color land you want, including basics. If you spend a early land drop playing and cracking a Wasteland, you will be getting yourself into a more Dazeable situation, you won't be able to enjoy extra mana for checking you top 3 and you may not have the mana for Counterbalance.

If you want to play tempo, play a deck focused on playing tempo, not this.

I wasn't clear in the post... I meant to say I was running basics to get around my opp running wastelands... but what I found out in playtesting was if my opp uses a wasteland on me I don't really mind b/c it speeds up threshold and I can do 90% of my deck with two lands... I never planned on running wastelands in thresh

[PowrDragn]

Where can this Hatfield list be found? Also, where are the various 5c variants posted?

I did a search and trolled around a bit and couldn't find a list for either.

[Wargoos]

What do you think about an addition of Jace?
Is he too slow or just doesn't support our gameplan?

[linux-ll-]

If you want to play Jace Beleren you have to cut Nimble Mongoose.
In my opinion Jace it a nice card to generate CA and it´s mostly hard to handle for your opponent.

[Wargoos]

That would be the List:

creature&planeswalker [10]

1 Jace Beleren
1 Mystic Enforcer
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

instant [19]

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Predict
4 Swords to Plowshares

sorcery [4]

4 Ponder

enchantment [5]

4 Counterbalance
1 Hoofprints of the Stag

artifact [5]

2 Pithing Needle
3 Sensei's Divining Top

land [17]

4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:

3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Trygon Predator
2 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Armageddon


I think about cutting the Hoofprints for the 2nd Beleren(which have a little synergy together), but will first try this build for it seems pretty solid to me. I added the Needles because Adan recommended them the rest is like standart ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh.

[Zach Tartell]

Where can this Hatfield list be found? Also, where are the various 5c variants posted?

I did a search and trolled around a bit and couldn't find a list for either.

Alix Hatfield
5 Color Thresh
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Daze
1 Portent
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mystic Enforcer
4 City of Brass
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
60 cards
4 Pyroclasm
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Fact or Fiction
15 cards


It's found in the top 8 decklists thread in the Tournament Reports/Announcements forum.

[PowrDragn]

Thanks for posting this. I honestly looked and couldn't find it.

I like the list. It's similar to something I've been working on. I mostly wanted to have Therapy or Thoughtseize main.

I'll trust that the original deckbuilder has a better understanding than I do, but I might feel better replacing the Fact or Fiction and Portent with something else. The red cards seem a bit ...I dunno..."win better"-ish. It can't ever hurt having access to red blast though, I'd imagine.

[Shugyosha]

I'll trust that the original deckbuilder has a better understanding than I do, but I might feel better replacing the Fact or Fiction and Portent with something else. The red cards seem a bit ...I dunno..."win better"-ish. It can't ever hurt having access to red blast though, I'd imagine.

As far as I remember one of the Hatfields already said that the Fact main didn't perform as expected. I would cut it and the Portent for 2 Predict or 2 Repeal. The current draw package is quite solid so 2 Repeal would be better. They also make your lategame Thoughtseize better sometimes.

Red Blasts are killer. They help to get your key cards through (Balance) or counter your opponent's key spells and occasionally protect/rescue creatures from Control Magic/Threads.

[Mental]

Thanks for posting this. I honestly looked and couldn't find it.

I like the list. It's similar to something I've been working on. I mostly wanted to have Therapy or Thoughtseize main.

I'll trust that the original deckbuilder has a better understanding than I do, but I might feel better replacing the Fact or Fiction and Portent with something else. The red cards seem a bit ...I dunno..."win better"-ish. It can't ever hurt having access to red blast though, I'd imagine.

FoF is anti landstill tech that lets you match their CA in the late game and counter their 4 drops in the early game. If there's not a lot of Landstill in your meta, you should replace FoF, probably with a 4th Daze.

[Omega]

I am really excited about the announcement of Canadian Legacy Championship which will be held on August 2 at Montreal.

My big question is : What deck to play. I played most of my legacy "career or life" (call it as you wish) with UGW ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh. I know i am most confortable with this deck. However I rarely keep up to date with the newest changes and all, but i know that most ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh has evolved (black splash, red splash, canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, etc etc). It is likely I will play a ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh deck for the tournament, but should i dare splashing some color to make my Aggro match better ? (splashing red). I always had some difficulties against aggro. Should i splash black to be even more aggressive/control with dark confidant/thoughtseize?

I know for sure that Aggro/Landstill/ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh will show up in great number. But i do not know how many people will play, since the legacy tournament will take place with a Bloc tournament (t2), and most people play t2 anyway. Probably no combo, or very little.

Any thoughts? Thank you

Robert

[Adan]

I hope that the next one who can't simply write "Thresh" instead of "ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh" will receive a lifetime-ban. Seriously, wtf?

Well, browse through the forums or sites like germagic.de and take a look at the builds. I guess you can figure out which one to play in your meta by yourself.

[Shugyosha]

I know for sure that Aggro/Landstill/ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh will show up in great number. But i do not know how many people will play, since the legacy tournament will take place with a Bloc tournament (t2), and most people play t2 anyway. Probably no combo, or very little.

Any thoughts? Thank you

Robert

Against the mirror and Landstill UG Thresh (the original GenCon build with another Sideboard) is the best I think. UGR is very good against aggro and good in the mirror too. But unless you don't know the meta more exactly UGw would be a decent call because you know how to play it (I assume). The Threshold lists nowadays are played very differently from one another.

On a sidenote: If you are not familiar with the Counterbalance/Top engine just don't play it before you tested it (alot). You can always go back and play a "oldskool" list with Meddling Mages etc. instead of a Balance build. Mages can be set on Balance in the mirror.