[OLD] UGr Threshold

[Adan]

Misdirection was good and bad, I'm pretty sure it will be coming out, but I'm not sure for what just yet.
I'm not sure it really NEEDS the Portents, I mean, it's already running 4x BS, 4x Ponder, and 3x Top.
When you throw 8 fetches into the mix, it isn't that hard to find what you need.
For me to fit 2x Portent, I'd remove Misdirection and then I'd either have to drop the Daze/Goose/Land count by one and I think thats BAD.

Including 1 Portent as a 5th Ponder is also fine. ;-)

[Nihil Credo]

Congratulations on the win! On the list: was the lack of Tormod's Crypts in the sideboard a metagame choice? Loam.dec is easily winnable with the Swans combo, but I'd be scared of Ichorid without them.

Also, if you want to try Portent or Predict over Misdirection, there's no reason not to just play 1x - they don't get any better or worse in multiple.

EDIT: By the way, am I the only one still playing 2 Islands and Moon in the SB?

[yawg07]

Congratulations on the win! On the list: was the lack of Tormod's Crypts in the sideboard a metagame choice? Loam.dec is easily winnable with the Swans combo, but I'd be scared of Ichorid without them.

Also, if you want to try Portent or Predict over Misdirection, there's no reason not to just play 1x - they don't get any better or worse in multiple.

EDIT: By the way, am I the only one still playing 2 Islands and Moon in the SB?

Yes, right now in our meta, Tormod's Crypt is okay, but at the moment, Ichorid and grave decks have vanished.
Also Crypt isn't that useful against TES or anything like that. I know whenever people would board in Crypt when I play TES, I just shrug it off.

You guys make good points. I'd probably play Predict in that slot. I'll try it :D

Actually right now, I may squeeze Island #2 in somewhere. Being able to still do swans combo under a Moon effect is golden.


EDIT: Thanks for all the congrats, I'm really new to control decks, but MAN are they fun.

[moOnsteak]

EDIT: Thanks for all the congrats, I'm really new to control decks, but MAN are they fun.

Yeah, I never played Threshold before, only face them as testing partner or on tournament since I assume they are the most stable and powerful build in the format. But the entering of the swan combo make me excited to play it on the next tourney, even if I have to jump into the training ground in order to improve my skill. .

Ahh, also congratez for a great finish. .

[AngryTroll]

Which version of Red Thresh is actually better, a more traditional UGr Thresh/Canadian Thresh, or the Swan Thresh builds? I know the traditional builds are meta dependent, but in general, does adding the Swan combo improve the deck, or weaken it?

It seems like adding the combo requires 1 dead card, 3 sub-optimal creatures, and 3 sub-optimal burn spells. Would it be possibly to take out the Lightning Storm and the Chains of Plasma for 4 Chain Lightnings, or Magma Jets, or whatever burn spell should go in that spot? You lose the combo win, but you still get to play with Ancestral Recall and only have 3 sub-optimal creatures instead of 3 more sub-optimal burn spells and a dead card.

Is the combo valuable enough to be worth the dead cards, or would the deck be better with more efficient burn that can be Ancestral Recalled?

[Adan]

Which version of Red Thresh is actually better, a more traditional UGr Thresh/Canadian Thresh, or the Swan Thresh builds? I know the traditional builds are meta dependent, but in general, does adding the Swan combo improve the deck, or weaken it?

It improves the deck. Without the combo, there would be no reason to run UGr Threshold with Counterbalances because UGW can do everything better - in my opinion.
With the combo, it makes sense since you can stall the game with CBalance and slowroll until you have the combo. Since the deck's style is like a mishmash between tempo and control, it's also versatile enough to play hyper-aggressive beatdown (burn for reach) and Counterbalance as a disruption spell rather than a control-element. But this mish-mash could also be the weak spot of the deck, I don't know, but I'm already used to it.

But it's also possible that I'm hallucinating. Well, I just wanted to try to include it into UGr Threshold because the possibility to combo is kinda ridiculous. I also don't want to accept that I've wasted 20 bucks for my asian playset of Swans...

It seems like adding the combo requires 1 dead card, 3 sub-optimal creatures, and 3 sub-optimal burn spells.

This proves that you have never played it so far. The cards are quite good, even though they don't appear so.

Would it be possibly to take out the Lightning Storm and the Chains of Plasma for 4 Chain Lightnings, or Magma Jets, or whatever burn spell should go in that spot?

For our decks concept, Magma Jet, Chain Lightning and even Fire//Ice are terrible. What's wrong about Chain of Plasma? It's Chain Lightning with Instant Speed, except that they may copy it by discarding a card instead of paying RR.
And Chain Lightning sucks hard in combonation with Blood Moon which you MIGHT want to play in the SB because of metagame-reasons.

Is the combo valuable enough to be worth the dead cards, or would the deck be better with more efficient burn that can be Ancestral Recalled?

OMG, if the cards were really dead, how come I've burned out my opponents 4 times at Heidelberg tourney? Chain of Plasma is rearely copied and therefore as good as Incinerate (not that this would be relevant, but it's actually Incinerate that enables a instant-win combo).

Swans are not suboptimal. They are 4/3 Flying for 4 Mana and that's already a quite solid body with evasion.
The reason why I also wanted to include the combo was the following:

In the past, the UGR builds with Counterbalance here always tended to run Sea Drakes because they have the same stats, are pitchable to Force of Will and have more or less hidden synergy with Brainstorm (ninja tech!).

Swans actually fullfill the same role, except that they rather have synergy with all your burnspells rather than with Brainstorm and cost 1 more mana (in exchange, they don't bounce 2 of your lands).

And Lightning Storm is also not really a dead card. Sure, it's mediocre, but it can be hardcasted as well like the other burnspells and also enable the combowin. The only decks against which these cards truly suck are Loam-based decks.

[yawg07]

I highly agree.
In both testing AND in practice, the fact that Lightning Storm can deal 5+ damage at Instant speed for 3 mana is quite amazing.
Brainstorm into a couple of lands towards the end of the game? No problem.
Play Lightning Storm and drop those lands on it, game over.

Swans is the best support creature I have seen in a long time for XX/r builds of control.
Ancestral Recall (Lightning Bolt) is just as good in Legacy as it is in Vintage when you're in the middle of a control battle.

If your metagame is infested with control, I really think this is the deck to play.
Plus, sideboarding with this deck is usually REALLY easy, which I have to say, I enjoy very much.

[slyfer]

Why vs control? The whiter it is, the worst you are I think.... Humility, wrath, stp... You play swan and pass the turn I think...
Blood moon is good vs landstill? don't you use red elemental blast?

[chokin]

UGr Thresh is an aggro-control deck amirite? Adding the Swans makes it aggro-control-combo :P

Adan sums up just about everything I wanted to say about Swans in the deck. It gives a strong reason to play UGr over UGw.

Lightning Storm kinda makes lategame Daze like a softcounter+shock. Even without a Chains, Bolt drawing 3 cards is really sick and gives you potential to draw into more burn or gain better card quailty.

[yawg07]

Why vs control? The whiter it is, the worst you are I think.... Humility, wrath, stp... You play swan and pass the turn I think...
Blood moon is good vs landstill? don't you use red elemental blast?

My metagame has quite a lot of control/aggro-control variants in it.
This deck really slams every thing that isn't red.

StP? Umm ... Counter-Top is an easy fix for that.
Wrath and Humility are solved with FoW/Daze game one, and game two you get Krosan Grip/Needle for Humilty/E.Explosives/Deed.
Also, if the deck is too hard/too risky to try and combo against, just side it out!

I don't play moon, but I can see it being very good if you fetch enough basics (i.e. play 2nd Island)

And no, Red Elemental Blast has a strike against it because Pyroblast can be played to get Threshold in a pinch.

[Illissius]

What matchups does the Swan combo help you against? Aggro? Board control? Board control with low amounts of instant speed removal?

[Nihil Credo]

What matchups does the Swan combo help you against? Aggro? Board control? Board control with low amounts of instant speed removal?

Anything with lots of creature removal: basically you're OK with them getting rid of Mongeese and Tarmogoyf, while you save your Forces to protect the combo. Also, Chain of Plasma+Lightning Storm beats Fire/Ice here: easier to burn them out if they resolve a Humility or whatnot.

As for aggro, it can be better or worse depending on the meta: you become worse against burn (you *need* CounterTop, otherwise Swans are Force-fodder unless you are ready to combo, and Chains of Plasma suck when you're the control and they're not Hellbent), but better against fat, since you can just sit your Goyfs back in defence instead of trying to push them through - which may be impossible if you're at low life.

Interestingly, the most drastic improvement is against prison decks: you can completely ignore the combat step yet still win.

[Mental]

Anything with lots of creature removal: basically you're OK with them getting rid of Mongeese and Tarmogoyf, while you save your Forces to protect the combo. Also, Chain of Plasma+Lightning Storm beats Fire/Ice here: easier to burn them out if they resolve a Humility or whatnot.

As for aggro, it can be better or worse depending on the meta: you become worse against burn (you *need* CounterTop, otherwise Swans are Force-fodder unless you are ready to combo, and Chains of Plasma suck when you're the control and they're not Hellbent), but better against fat, since you can just sit your Goyfs back in defence instead of trying to push them through - which may be impossible if you're at low life.

Interestingly, the most drastic improvement is against prison decks: you can completely ignore the combat step yet still win.

It's also very good against Goblins. Instead of having to win, you just have to wait long enough to combo out. That's much easier to do.

[yawg07]

It's also very good against Goblins. Instead of having to win, you just have to wait long enough to combo out. That's much easier to do.

You gotta be careful, though, if they nail it with an Incinerator and draw 4+ cards, you will probably lose.
Against Goblins I sideboard like this ...

-3 Swan
-3 Chain
-3 Counterbalance

+2 Needle
+4 Stifle
+3 Pyroclasm

And then I just play Thresh like normal. Stifle on Matron/Ringleader is pretty damn powerful.
Even against Rbg Goblins, with their Earwig Squad/Wort, you have excellent games 2/3.

[Mental]

True, but that's almost never a problem as most Goblin builds are playing 1-2 Incinerators these days.

[Jujuhawk]

True, but that's almost never a problem as most Goblin builds are playing 1-2 Incinerators these days.

Most run 3 or 4, actually.

[yawg07]

True, but that's almost never a problem as most Goblin builds are playing 1-2 Incinerators these days.

This is also true. I have noticed them being less and less used.
Does Rbg Gobs even play them at all? I didn't notice any at all last tourney I was in.

[Mental]

This is also true. I have noticed them being less and less used.
Does Rbg Gobs even play them at all? I didn't notice any at all last tourney I was in.

I play 3 in my RGB build, but most other people play 1, I think.

[slyfer]

This deck cannot beat control with white.
Stp, humility (no out maindeck), and wish for pulse is game over.
Crucible - wasteland is game over.
It has so many weakness that I really think its not viable, the only viable UGr deck is the tempo with wasteland and stifle, because of tempo, so it means "no time for wish/pulse" or goodness.
I'm very disapointed with the results

[Adan]

This deck cannot beat control with white.
Stp, humility (no out maindeck), and wish for pulse is game over.
Crucible - wasteland is game over.
It has so many weakness that I really think its not viable, the only viable UGr deck is the tempo with wasteland and stifle, because of tempo, so it means "no time for wish/pulse" or goodness.
I'm very disapointed with the results

Jeesh...

First of all, yes, UWb landstill such as Clemens' build are a bad matchup for the deck.
Humility is a pain in the ass and nearly GG in game 1, but on the other side, there is a little advantage. Sweepers like WoG or EE-softlock buys the Landstill player time, but you can still put him into an defensive position by just resolving Swans. You can simply combo instead of playing straight-foward beatdown, because if you do so, you will most likely scoop to a well-timed WoG.

Why should the tempo variant be better than the Swans-build? Against the modern Landstill lists (i.e. Clemens/DIF), the manadenial-plan is obsolete because he will fetch basiclands. Keeping mana open fro Stifle is also not very smart since it makes you slower as well.

The main reason why red Threshold in general has always got a slight advantage over other variants against Landstill is simple: Burn. The fact that you can make virtual 20 or 24 damage (4 Bolt + Either 3/1 Chain-Storm or 4 Fire//Ice) without ever attacking is important against landstill. This is also supported with the critters. Burn = pressure and under soem cirumstances, it forces the opponent to handle things immediately, which makes Daze much more stronger.

It's obvious that you have to keep the above mentioned card off the table.

That's it for the flame-free part. On the other hand: Do some playtests, learn how to play it properly and THEN you might be able to distinguish which build might be better.

The statements "This deck can't beat control with white" and "Tempobuild is better because of TEMPO" don't express much competence or experience. According to them, everyone who wants to hate Threshold should play Rifter or Wombat again. T3h oldschOol.

Additionally, the above mentioned weaknesses might be true, but they are true for the tempo-variant as well, except that the tempo variant can be knocked out easier by Pulse of the Fields or sweepers while with SwanThresh, you can still combo him.
UWb landstill has also got a high basicland count, making the manadenial-plan obsolete. That's why Counterbalance is the more appropriate disruption piece against LS.
But that's only my theory, if I got time, I might do some testing with Clemens.