[Deck] It's the Fear - Control in the new Era

[landstill101]

The one thing that I have noticed with this deck more than any tweaks or changes in the deck is really the skill that the player has, I consider my meta one of the hardest in Ohio because out of the top 20,10 of them are at my shop and play very regularly, and this deck has now won or split for first play in the last 8 out of 9 tournaments I have played it in and the one time I didn't, I lost in top 4 to a dragon stompy deck. I have only made changes to the main deck twice from this list that I'm using:


1 forest
1 island
3 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
2 underground sea
2 tundra
4 tropical island
1 bayou(which im thinkin on changin to a badland)
1 Acadamy ruins
1 volrath's stronghold

4 tarmogoyf
2 psychatog
1 eternal witness

4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 counterbalance

3 sensei's divining top
4 brainstorm
3 intuition
1 life from the loam

4 swords to plowshares
2 vedalken shackles

3 pernicious deed
2 engineered explosives

Sideboard:
4 tormod's crypt
1 life from the loam
3 krosan grip
4 blue elemental blast
3 thoughtseize


The only changed Ive made to it is my preference for the manabase and changing the amount of deeds and e.e.

This deck has dominated enough to put me in 5th in the state and has many of my peeps at the shop completly hate the deck with a passion.

The one thing I would do as a player before changing and basturdizing the deck, become a better player and the deck will win.

[Kadaj]

Implying that those of us who are arguing to make changes to the deck are lacking in playskill is ludicrous. Alix Hatfield has been one of the loudest proponents of adding Standstill to this deck, and he's one of the best Legacy players there is. Anusien has plenty of knowledge of the Legacy format, although he certainly has a habit of not letting that show in his articles, to be able to suggest changes to a deck like this, and I consider myself a skilled enough control player, who has done more than enough work with decks like this, to be able to identify where weak-spots have a continuous habit of popping up.

There's nothing wrong with stating that the deck is skill-intensive to play. The issue arises when you attempt to say that those of us who believe this deck to be imperfect should just shut-up and become better players before we dare attempt to make changes to your all-mighty deck. Seriously, if the deck were that good that there are literally no changes that can be made to it one or two things would've happened by now. One, Dave would've given up on the deck because it would have an irritatingly low ceiling and lack of flexibility. Or two, the whole Legacy community would've stood up and coronated this deck as the new Thresh. As neither of these have occurred, I will continue recommending changes that I think will make this deck better, thank you.

[Anusien]

Putting in a Bayou absolutely BAFFLES me. If I were to put in any nonblue dual lands, it would be Savannah or Scrubland. At least in the maindeck the only time you want black mana, you also want green, so being able to produce both from a single land makes no sense. Without a great feel for the deck I can't say whether it can afford another non-blue land (Counterbalance), but I'd look at those above.

Edit: Which Intuition pile is better in the face of an on-board Counterbalance/Top: EE, EE, Academy Ruins, or EE, Witness, Academy Ruins. My gut is the second one, but it seems like it's far too easy for them to give you Witness and Waste the Ruins, or find a Tarmogoyf/counterspell and win in the fourteen turns it takes you to set up that combo.

[Nihil Credo]

Edit: Which Intuition pile is better in the face of an on-board Counterbalance/Top: EE, EE, Academy Ruins, or EE, Witness, Academy Ruins. My gut is the second one, but it seems like it's far too easy for them to give you Witness and Waste the Ruins, or find a Tarmogoyf/counterspell and win in the fourteen turns it takes you to set up that combo.

As you yourself said, that depends on how much pressure you are under. Can you afford a Time Walk in exchange for having Academy/EE online for the rest of the game? Eight life and staring down a Goyf and Volcanic Islands, no. Twenty life, yes.

But actually, it doesn't matter much. Your opponent can make this very same assessment - in fact, better than you can - and, if he knows he can't capitalize on that extra turn, he'll just give you the EE anyway.

So, theoretically, against a good opponent you should always go for EE/EE/Ruins because you're giving them less options. Of course, though, everyone makes mistakes. Also, having Volrath's Stronghold or Loam or a second Intuition can drastically change all of the above considerations.

[Anusien]

Incidentally, you could go the complete other way and not worry about your Dragon Stompy matchup game 1. Then wait for them to play Blood Moon and Intuition for Demigod of Revenge in games 2 and 3. They board into extra Blood Moons against you anyway, if they don't have 6+ main.

[nitewolf9]

As hilarious as that is (and don't get me wrong, it's pretty hilarious), I don't know if you can reliably get to 5 mana before DS can kill you without access to LftL. I'd rather board in something like disrupting shoal with the number of 3 drops this deck plays than demigod of revenge. I think you just have to rely on beb and hope you have the force if they are on the play and drop a blood moon.

Di: I don't get it...

[Deep6er]

So, after the tournament, I've decided that my sideboard will permanently feature 4 Krosan Grips.

However, with the numbers on Ichorid fluctuating, it's difficult to tell how much grave-hate I should be packing.

Theoretically, I could just pack light grave-hate, and hope for the best. Something like Leyline of the Void would definitely be strong against them, and it gives me outs in games 2 and 3. Problem is, that I have to mulligan for it.

Additionally, there is Tormod's Crypt. Very strong, but has a similar problem to Leyline. I'm going to have to mulligan for it. So, with that in mind, wouldn't Leyline of the Void be better?

Also up for consideration is Yixlid Jailer. Costs more than Crypt, but does more than Crypt and less than Leyline. The fact that it turns off my Life from the Loams also makes it less desirable against Loam decks and Survival.

Last, and probably least, is Extirpate. Still going to have to mulligan for it against Ichorid, and just not as strong as any of the other options. Decent against Survival, and possibly Loam, it just doesn't impress me.

So, given the options, what does the data say on grave-hate?

1K Legacy event = 4 Ichorid decks.
68 players.
1 made top 8.

Seems like even though the deck had a pretty favorable metagame (since there was a fair bit of Counterbalance), it still didn't do quite as well. Although, 1 out of 4 is okay, is it necessary to overboard for Ichorid? Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to beat Ichorid game 1, and games 2 and 3 are worrisome at best. However, it should be noted that It's the Fear could more optimally use it's sideboard for something else.

Anyway, I'm testing one Fact or Fiction right now in what was the Tormod's Crypt spot from my decklist from the tournament. I'll tell everyone how that goes. Also, I'm hoping to test against Mono-blue soon, and post the results.

[Nightmare]

I'm still not convinced that you should be that worried about Ichorid. Maybe I'm undervaluing the deck, but I don't really know if thats the case.

Run Tormod's Crypt - there's no reason you shouldn't. You run Intuition and Academy Ruins. Between raw-dogging them, setting up the loop with LFtL, and using your counters to slow Ichorid's explosiveness - oh, and EE, too - you should be able to set up the Crypt Lock with very little difficulty. Of course they'll get the nuts once in a while, and you might lose to that, but it's much more likely that they'll get a pretty good draw with like a turn 3 win or so. That's without your disruption.

Another thought would be to run Thoughtsieze. Many times I've led with it against Ichorid and taken their major business spell. It does two things - it forces them to search for more redundancy on the draw, and it stops the "draw a card, discard grave-troll, go" plan for at least a turn. Something to think about.

[nitewolf9]

I think if you board for ichorid at all, you'll have to devote like 6 or 7 slots in the board in order to make it worthwhile. What other decks give this one problems besides bloodmoon.dec? Some builds of landstill? I think it might be worth boarding for ichorid at a large event simply because I think the deck can fight it's way through most anything else. Without the hate you might as well go get lunch.

I think leyline is the most risk-reward card as far as hate goes. Sure, you stick it and they pretty much lose, especially as you can counter CoV. If you don't have it but have an otherwise decent hand that can slow them down, do you mull for it? I personally think a combination of crypt and jailer might be the best approach here. Crypt comes down fast and jailer shuts them down just as well as leyline, as well as being able to swing and actually having a chance to replay it early enough if it does get bounced. Both of these are also stellar topdecks in the case of the force of will/sweeper hands.

What about a board of:
4 grip
4 BeB
4 Crypt
3 yixlid jailer

I also really like jailer against survival as you can protect it well and they can't play around it. Without genesis and squee it seems like they will have a nightmare of a time beating you, in addition to counterbalance raping them.
Is this board really lacking anything else you need? You said it yourself: "I was playing a 5 card sideboard". Granted if you had run into ichorid that would have changed dramatically, but do you think you need anything else here? What about all the other decks you played against in which nothing else really came in?

I guess another option would be 3 meditates in the jailer slot for the control mirror. I'm not sure about thoughtseize...what else does that help against? Combo? Seems lacking against anything else.

[Nightmare]

Dan, I like Jailer for the same reason I like Crypt in the deck - it's recurrable through your lands. The fact that Jailer provides a way to beat them that doesn't get stopped by Needle is pretty good, too.

[nitewolf9]

Yeah, I think immunity to needle is pretty big. Plus I think in this matchup the ability to swing with jailer is actually relevant. I saw Jesse K. go to time a couple of times against decks packing just crypt.

[Deep6er]

I don't think I would use Jailer against Survival. He's entirely too frail, and he shuts off Life from the Loam which could be important against them.

Primarily, he's too weak. Also, it's unlikely you're going to be able to swing with him against many decks. Ichorid, without being able to dredge, will just play land then some shitty dudes, and swing. They could easily force you to block with Jailer just due to sheer numbers. Alternatively, with Crypt/Leyline, they're looking for the bounce spell instead of playing dudes (usually, or they might just go aggro like Jesse Krieger did against Matt Abold) so that they can explode in one turn.

It all comes down to the fact that Jailer is so frail. Having an ass of one makes him too difficult to use in combat, and the fact that he shuts off Life from the Loam makes me hesitant to use him in matches that aren't Ichorid.

@Nightmare: Is it possible that JUST Crypt would be good enough? It's decent against Survival and Loam, but it doesn't have the same strength against Ichorid as something like Leyline does. I'd be trading power for versatility while also maintaining sideboard space for other matchups. This seems like something I should test.

[nitewolf9]

If you stick jailer against ichroid and their backup plan is swinging in with putrid imps and narcomoeba's, I think you're in good shape. You have ass tons of removal, countermagic, and tarmogoyf as well. How are they going to beat you with the shitty dude aggro plan?

You're probably right about survival, but if you overboard for ichorid I think jailer is pretty solid. Against loam would you actually board in more than 4 hate cards? I guess talking about other matchups that jailer would be useful in is kind of just grasping at straws. He's there to beat ichorid.

PS. They are probably not going to force you to block with jailer considering 90% of their aggro plan is going to involve fliers.

PPS. - They can just as easily go shitty aggro on you with leyline/crypt in play. At least jailer is relevant in that scenario as he can swing back.

[Deep6er]

Valid point, but wouldn't it be better to play the best all around grave-hate card and free up room in my board for other matches? One of the biggest problems in the match that I lost was very few relevant sideboard cards. I'm almost positive that it wouldn't take much in the board to remedy that matchup. Since Blasts seem so useful, it seems to me that I only have 7 slots left. If I overboard for Ichorid, then it leaves me with the same problem that I had at the tournament, wherein I do not have relevant cards for a variety of matchups. Is this the best choice? Or would it be better to minimize the hate on Ichorid, hope for the best, and strengthen my board options against other decks?

[jazzykat]

I don't think I would use Jailer against Survival. He's entirely too frail, and he shuts off Life from the Loam which could be important against them.

Primarily, he's too weak. Also, it's unlikely you're going to be able to swing with him against many decks. Ichorid, without being able to dredge, will just play land then some shitty dudes, and swing. They could easily force you to block with Jailer just due to sheer numbers. Alternatively, with Crypt/Leyline, they're looking for the bounce spell instead of playing dudes (usually, or they might just go aggro like Jesse Krieger did against Matt Abold) so that they can explode in one turn.

It all comes down to the fact that Jailer is so frail. Having an ass of one makes him too difficult to use in combat, and the fact that he shuts off Life from the Loam makes me hesitant to use him in matches that aren't Ichorid.

@Nightmare: Is it possible that JUST Crypt would be good enough? It's decent against Survival and Loam, but it doesn't have the same strength against Ichorid as something like Leyline does. I'd be trading power for versatility while also maintaining sideboard space for other matchups. This seems like something I should test.

WRT to the post above, I agree with everything stated in it.

WRT to Crypt vs. Leyline of the Void as I don't find the Jailer to be particularly appealing myself, I think a fundamental question to be answered is: How much time do I need to win?

I.e. If one crypt activation buys you enough time to get out a Tarmogoyf and beat them down then I think the answers obvious. However, if that is not usually the case (which I am suspecting it's not) the waters become muddier.

The second question might then be Crypt + what (that isn't Leyline of the Void) can improve your Ichorid match-up and be versatile somewhere else.

The next question I can think of is: How much stuff can I actually afford to take out?

Lastly and this seemed to be what you did to a point in the $1000 tournament is to accept that you can't beat everything and smash the rest of the field and do what you can against your bad match-ups.

[nitewolf9]

Is this the best choice? Or would it be better to minimize the hate on Ichorid, hope for the best, and strengthen my board options against other decks?

I definitely think that's the main question. I say post board testing should be done with 4 crypts against ichorid to see if you can pull out even slightly positive numbers. If so it might be worth it to devote those cards to fighting either the control mirror or silly aggro decks (it seems the games against that stompy deck and 1 googleplex color zoo were quite close).

All things considered with the metagame in NY I think you made a good choice with the board, your matchups just didn't reflect that. Since you have the most experience with the deck, what do you think is more useful: help against control or help against aggro? Or maybe something else?

Or you could just play seize the soul somewhere in the board . Yes, I have a problem.

[Nightmare]

@Nightmare: Is it possible that JUST Crypt would be good enough? It's decent against Survival and Loam, but it doesn't have the same strength against Ichorid as something like Leyline does. I'd be trading power for versatility while also maintaining sideboard space for other matchups. This seems like something I should test.

My entire board plan for Ichorid (in MSPaint, to be fair, but even when I was playing TEC) is to play a couple Crypts with some way to find them. In TEC it was redic draw, in MSPaint it's cantrips and LDV, and in ITF it's Intuition. Run at least three, Intuition for them, get Ruins online, profit. Of course, this is the ideal situation, and I think Ichorid is worse than people give it credit for, but hey, I haven't lost to it in tournament play more than maybe twice, ever.

[Deep6er]

@Jazzykat: Well, against Ichorid, I can usually take out these:
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Counterspell (counterbalance does it better)
1 Flex slot (which is currently being tested as Fact or Fiction)

Those are comfortable. It's one of the reasons why I would like to just play four hate cards in my board because it syncs up nicely with cards I can comfortably take out of the main.

@Nitewolf9: I'm not sure which needs more help. Control in most of it's forms are comfortable for me, while certain aggro decks (non-red aggro decks) can give me trouble. I'd probably use the extra space to run bombs against control and aggro, splitting that slot as either 2 Smother/Seize the Soul/ridiculous removal spell and 2 Vitu-Ghazi, the City Tree/Meditate/ridiculous card drawing spell/ridiculous land that makes me win under a Standstill. The options are vast. First though, I'll need to see how post board testing with 4 Crypts works out. Then we'll be able to get some hard numbers down on the last remaining slots.

@Nightmare: Don't get me wrong, I don't particularly like Ichorid. I think it has it's weaknesses, but I also recognize the deck's strengths. It has pretty insane game 1's against most decks in the format, and hopes for the best in games 2 and 3. Remember, with how Ichorid works, the burden of winning (for the most part) is put on the opponent. Thus, you FORCE them to mulligan for their hate, which means that you get the possibility of screwing them out of a game (ex. Krieger vs. Bigbear).

So, I think that's something to consider, at the very least.

[Rood]

// Lands
4 [B] Tropical Island
2 [B] Underground Sea
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [CHK] Forest (2)
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
5 [ARE] Island (8)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [IA] Counterspell
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [TE] Intuition
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [TE] Propaganda

A swordsless build with a much more solid mana base. I also really like K-grips in the main in this deck, they hit so many great cards and are really a beating preboard people will not expect them. Propaganda from the board tends to make Goblins and Ichorid fairly stronger MUs.

[Deep6er]

I think you're missing the point where Swords is the most powerful removal spell in the format.

Also, I don't really like maindecked Krosan Grips. I think that they're much stronger in the sideboard.

Mainly though, Swords is too nutty to not play. That card is so incredibly powerful.

EDIT: Propaganda isn't too strong against Ichorid if you don't live long enough to play it. If you do, then it's probably just win more because the Crypt that you played was more powerful than Propaganda.

Also, I don't have a problem with Goblins. That matchup is definitely in my favor. Blasts are versatile enough to use against Goblins while also being relevant against Dragon Stompy.