[Deck] Suicide Black

[3duece]

What do you guys think of a build more focussed on all-out aggression, basically removing land destruction in favor of more creatures and acceleration?
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Wretched Anurid
4 Dark Confident
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Tombstalker

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
4 Snuff Out
4 Diabolic Edict

4 Dark Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
12 Swamp

The chrome moxes replace 4 swamps, speed up the tempo and feed tombstalker. 8 discard/8 spot removal seems like plenty to let the big guys plow through. Some other cards I've been considering are cursed scroll, skittering skirge and city of traitors.
I almost like skirge more than anurid even though you'll have to let him go pretty quick, but I like his evasion, kind of a black incinerate.
I ran city of traitors in Hatred years ago and it worked wonders, but I'm not sure how it would fair here.
Finally, maybe -2 Edict for +2 Scroll would add a little late game punch, but honestly all the lifeloss won't really allow you a lategame. Any thoughts or improvements?

[Galroth]

What do I think of it? I think it's a little weak honestly. I played a list fairly similar for a long time. I do think it's better than the Bill Stark-ish builds like the one I posted above. But I do see alot of problems that I think can be easily remedied in your list. Most of them are just fine-tuning your deck, but they are relevant.

1) Chrome Mox is never a 1 for 1 replacement of a swamp. Much less will you ever want to see multiples in your opening hand. If you do stick with 4 mox increase your land count by 1. My recommendation is drop to 3 mox and increase your land count by 2. My personal build runs 3 mox 4 ritual and I run 17 swamp and no Tombstalker.

2) Tombstalker is awesome. But multiples in your opening hand are no good. You're not running fetches, which means you're not going to play Tombstalker earlier than turn 4 without a ritual. All likelihood stalker is a turn 5 play. Cut down to 3, which also has the advantage of hurting yourself less off a Confidant draw.

3) Wretched Anurid sux! Well, that's my opinion atleast. I'd grab a more resilient creature that isn't aimed strictly at damaging your opponent. If damage is your aim, then just go with flesh reaver. Skittering Skirge is interesting, but you're pretty creature heavy as is. I do love Skirge though. Dusk Urchin is my creature of choice for this slot. However, in your build I'd personally go with a couple of Cursed Scrolls for some reach first. Scroll acts as a threat so replacing a creature with scroll instead of edicts with scrolls should be... not bad.

4) You're running 8x Discard effects. Some people think that's okay; I think it's horrendous. I never drop below 10. I suppose this does depend on your meta. I don't think 8 effects is enough to consistently win against control and combo without some good draws. Of course, if you're only seeing aggro in your meta, then 8 is fine... but your 4x duress should then be 4x thoughtseize. I can understand if price is a concern, but thoughtseize is the strictly superior card in legacy.

5) I might as well offer my opinion on your removal package. In my opinion diabolic edict is inferior to to snuff out. Against aggro you'll want to be able to choose which creature your killing. There are actually very few relevant creatures which you'll need edict for. The most notable is a threshed mongoose. However, your creatures can usually take care of a threshed goose. What you need to be able to catch with your removal is the Tarmogoy that your creatures cannot block or run over.

Hatred was too cool. Sometimes I think I could just sneak it in because nobody expects it anymore. Maybe just 1x copy for fun ;)

[Xurcks]

@3duece:

I think dark ritual and chrome mox would turn out together to be too many card disadvantage. Also , Chrome Mox doesn't do much to feed tombstalker , removing card from hand and being a permanent anyway , and Wretched Anurid is just underwhelming IMO.
4 Confidant and 4 Tombstalker may be too risky.
Maybe putting 4 more discard spells in the anurid slot would help.


City of traitors works great only on chalice\stompy style decks.
I tried Skirge and in very few occasions it was good enough.

I never tested scroll , but Tacosnape used Cursed Scroll in this list :


18 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

4 Carnophage
4 Black Knight
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Cabal Therapy/Smother/Yixlid Jailer
3 Cursed Scroll
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Engineered Plague
4 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void

[3duece]

Okay. So this leads me to a possibly dumb question- why, with a badass discard package, does no one run hatred decks anymore? Are the creatures just too small? Something like-
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Dauthi Slayer
4 Skittering Skirge
4 Phyrexian Negator

4 Duress
4 Unmask
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Hatred
4 Dark Ritual

4 City of Traitors
16 Swamp

Is it because people are afraid of daze and FoW? That's what the discard is for. This deck used to win on turn four fairly consistently with a possible turn two kill. What happened to this deck?

[Jaiminho]

Hatred sucks because it's cost will only not make you lose the game against Landstill if you manage to kill their factories. You lose to removal, you lose to counters, you lose because you need a Shadow or Flying dude for it to work.

[Galroth]

Hatred isn't run for a number of reasons:

Swords to Plowshares
Force of Will
Daze
Lightning Bolt
... ... some of the most played cards in the format really screw Hatred

More important is probably the creatures which Legacy commonly sees. Back when Hatred was popular the black onslaught of critters were the most powerful undercosted threats available. Nowadays, suicide black loses the early damage war unless a creature is accelerated out. Sarcomanys and Carnophages don't cut it when compared to Mongeese and Goyfs. Suicide's good creatures need to be accelerated out via Dark Ritual (Negator, Hypnotic, Shade) in order to win the early damage war. If you're life is less than the opponents Hatred is obviously no good. And if you're using your acceleration to beat your opponent in the early damage race, you're not using it for Hatred on turn 3.

Hatred is also often considered a win more card. If you're ahead it ends the game quickly, but it is only needed if the game is likely to swing back into your opponents favor. Y'know, I think Hatred might be able to find a spot into some suicide black builds as a 2x. It forces your opponent to play around the card and can steal games that otherwise you shouldn't win. If nothing else, it's fun as as all hell to drop the card down. It feels like gambling!

Try it out I say and let me know how it goes.

[Clark Kant]

It's not just FoW, Hatred has one more ledge to climb.

Hatred would see more play if it didn't cost 5 freaking mana.

The deck really has a tough time casting anything that costs more than 3 mana.

[Kainan]

I was watching last pages lists and I don't see many Sinkholes maindeck. Don't you guys think this card is a must 4-ofm to gain some tempo advantage?

[Galroth]

Regarding sinkhole - I think it is a must of if a tempo advantage is your goal. But I really don't think the blazing tempo of suicide is what the mono-black version builds will win with Red Death and Eva Green use sinkhole and wasteland for this tempo gain and are very successful with it. But they have better beaters and/or burn which adds to the tempo. Mono-black has alot of trouble consistently matching this kind of tempo.

We've got Negator, Shade, Hypnotic Specter... then what? Tombstalker? What else would go in a mono-black tempo version to match Red Death or Eva Green. I'm just brain storming at this point, but all the other good mono-black options seem geared towards more control (Dark Confidant, Dusk Urchin, Bitterblossom). Sarcomancy, Carnophage, and Stromgald Crusader are good pressure, but they're too slow to take real advantage of Sinkhole. Wretched Anurid and Flesh Reaver are possibilities; but there drawbacks are usually considered too much.

My personal preference - go for a controlling route instead. Your discard allows you the time to win against combo and provides enough disruption to control that both arch-types are of pretty low consequence. Lots of removal and large creatures that you can ride 1 or 2 of to the win makes for a decent match against aggro-control (not to mention 3cc is hot against counter-top). And aggro... well there seems to be less of that nowadays. But I never saw that much success tempo builds overwhelming aggro decks. I prefer heavy threat density and lots of removal. Of course, that's just my opinion.

[Clark Kant]

You're right that a splash lets you abuse Sinkhole even better letting you run threats like Tarmogoyf or supplemental spells like Vindicate.

If you want to see my recommended Sui Black build, here you go... http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=10287

But even in monoblack lists I think Sinkhole is extremely strong and fits in just fine.

Monoblack has plenty of threats that can take advantage of this tempo.

They are...
Hypnotic Specter
Nantuko Shade
Phyrexian Negator
Ashenmoor Gouger
Tombstalker (Extremely easy to support, esp if you play Wasteland and some fetchlands).

I think going the aggressive route by playing some combination of the above threats is ideal.

And doing so, I think Sinkhole fits in perfectly as do other tempo cards like Snuff Out and even Shreikmaw (terror+a threat).

[Illissius]

Eva Green plays Tombstalker so I don't see why plain old Suicide Black couldn't. Basically, swap the Tarmogoyfs from Eva Green for Negators and you're good to go. You also get to play Dystopias in the side.

4 Nantuko Shade
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Tombstalker
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Snuff Out
3 Other Cards
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
9 Swamp
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Dystopia
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Engineered Plague

I suggest the open slots could either be more removal to help Negator connect (Shriekmaw? Edict? Smother?), or more turn one plays (Duress?) because the deck currently has only eight. Chrome Mox or Lotus Petal could also help with that, but I'm sceptical of it being a very great idea.

Negator costs three to Tarmogoyf's two, which is not great for the curve, and which may or may not be a problem.

[Clark Kant]

Eva Green plays Tombstalker so I don't see why plain old Suicide Black couldn't.

QFT. All the best lists absolutely should imo.

I don't know about just straight up replacing Goyf with Negator. Goyf has none of the massive vulnerabilities to burn or blockers that Negator has. Hell, Goyfs strongest attribute is that it easily outclasses all other potential early blockers.

But if it works in your meta, yes do run Negator. If it doesn't, run something else, like Ashenmoor Gouger perhaps.

As for the last 3 cards, in my experience, Reanimate is grossly underestimated in Sui Black.

You have a multitude of ways to get creatures into your opponents yard (Thoughtseize, Snuff Out, Hymn, Hippie, being chump blocked) etc. And even if you don't, many of your threats are threats that your opponent will absolutely kill asap. Reanimate gets you some pretty kickass threats for a mere 1 mana and whenever it does always proves to be a huge tempo boost.

I would play 2-3 Reanimate in a build such as what illiusus proposed.

[Clark Kant]

As an experiment, I tried to build a mono black suicide deck, I really did.

But I couldn't justify playing suicide black without playing Tombstalker.

I couldn't justify playing Tombstalker without playing eight fetchlands.

And I couldn't justify playing eight fetchlands without splashing a color.

So that led me to the following build...

4 phyrexian negator/ashenmoor gouger
4 hypnotic specter
4 tombstalker
2 shriekmaw

4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
4 vindicate
3 reanimate
2 snuff out

4 wasteland
4 polluted delta
4 bloodstained mire
4 scrubland
4 swamp
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth

board:
4 leyline of the void
4 engineered plague
4 pithing needle
3 umezawa's jitte

I like the way this build plays out a lot. But I want to see any suggestions or comments you have for the above build.

[thefreakaccident]

The list looks solid... why run reanimate without smallpox?

There really doesn't seem to be any reason to run reanimate in the current decklist.

[rleader]

The list looks solid... why run reanimate without smallpox?

You must have missed the Errata for Reanimate:

Reanimate, B, Sorcery:
Summon Tarmogoyf, lose two life

I'm not a fan of suicide black anymore, but being able to turn your discard and kill cards into a creature stronger than your manabase can support seems like a good deal.

[Clark Kant]

ROFL. Well said. :)

I've been very pleased with Reanimate. If it weren't for that card, I would be playing Duress instead of Thoughtseize.

Even in the very unusual circumstance where your opponent is playing one of the two decks in legacy that doesn't run Tarmogoyf, reanimating your own Negator/Gouger, or Hippie is not a bad play.

Plus reanimating Shriekmaw that you just evoked to kill one threat, just to kill a second threat, is often a strong enough play to warrant losing 5 life for.


The main problem that I have with a list like this is the inevitable internal debate I have on which of the three threats is superior as that last four of.

Phyrexian Negator
- the beefiest option you could ever ask for
- works well with your removal
- opens you up to being pushed into some very horrid board states

vs.

Ashenmoor Gouger
- the mana cost can very occasionally be tough even playing just 4 non black sources
- slower than negator
- no risk involved at all

vs.

Nantuko Shade
- takes up critical mana needed to play spells to pump him
- rarely get all that big anyway
- turns extra dark rituals into giant growths

Any other fellow sui black players want to voice their opinion on that debate?

At the moment, I'm actually leaning towards Ashenmoor Gouger or perhaps a 2/2 split between Gouger and Shade, which isn't the answer I was expecting.

[Knikola]

Hello, this is my first post. I've been thinking about testing this out:

3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Dark Ritual
4 Smother
3 Extirpate
1 Pox (or pithing needle)
3 Duress
4 Hymm to tourach
4 Thoughtseize

4 Ashenmoor Gouger
1 Tombstalker
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter

4 Wasteland
12 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Urborg, Tomb of Some Guy that Sucks

SB
4 Leyline of the Void?
4 Engineered Plague
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Reanimate (?)
(I never put full thought into the sideboard)

It's much like Hammafist's. Only I'm an idiot that puts in a Pox just for style points.

[Jaiminho]

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

+

4 Ashenmoor Gouger

=

Design Fail. For obvious reasons. A lone Urborg does nothing to this deck. Multiple Urborgs could make you lose land drops.

Also, Pox doesn't work well on a deck that needs its creatures to win the game as soon as possible based on tempo disruption.

[Knikola]

Yes, good points. Looks like Negator will be my new friend.
I'll probably just put in another Duress or one Reanimate if it even matters. Thanks for the input my good man.

[overseer1234]

I took this deck to a pretty big tournament (58 participants)
Here's my list:

Maindeck
3x Umezawa’s Jitte

4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Tombstalker
4x Ashenmoor Gouger

4x Dark Ritual
4x Snuff Out

4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
9x Swamp
4x Wasteland

4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Thoughtseize

Sideboard
4x Pithing Needle
4x Engineered Plague
4x Extirpate
3x Smother

Basically it's Eva Green but without tarmogoyf, so i play gouger in place of goyf, and jitte main deck in stead of the seal of primoridum. So I named the deck Black Death before my friends started calling it: Adam Black

(I started with the Red Death skeleton, but ended here with an Eva Green shell, hence the names...)

I was expecting a lot of loam (mainly terrageddon variants) and eventually went 3-3 winning against solidarity (duh), and twice against stupid burn (bigg bitch+jitte did the trick), and lost against UGB landstill TWICE, and once against ichorid combo...

Ashenmoor gouger's went all the way multiple times, and people really didn't seem to like it on my side of the field, I never wished for negator in his slot, so this guy's staying :D.

I really have no idea what went wrong against landstill... they just seemed to draw what they needed every time to answer everything I threw at em.

Any advice for playing this deck against landstill would be really appreciated.