[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

[Citrus-God]

Ponder only filters cards while fact or fiction is a powerhouse in card drawing. Besides fact or fiction thins out the deck more considerably then ponder can ever do so then you will have a much better chance of finding what you need.

Well... it's just that it kinda sucks to be unable to find the right answer without mulling into it. This is the reason why we run Brainstorm, but running Ponders in addition won't really be a bad idea.

Yeah that's what I essentially meant. Considering landstill is still viable because of its strong draw engine and ponder does not have any part in that.

It contributes to the amazing draw engine by finding you card draw. I'm sure that in T1 if BSS back then only functioned off 4 Impulse, 4 Fact or Fictions, and 1 Ancestral Recall, I'm sure Landstill can pull this off. What I'm trying to get at is that Ponder isn't bad in this deck; it's a speculation.

The main issue that ponder has with this deck, is that we usually want to be playing the reactive role early-midgame... which means taping lands on your own turn is bad... meaning, you will have to wait on your draw spell for a later turn (for fear of what the opp might do)... I think the draw spells should stay as they are, between FoF, brainstorm, and standstill...

I disagree. If you're on the play, Ponder can help find you FoW and Standstill to set-up your 2nd Turn against slower decks. To be honest, the only Turn you don't want to play this card is Turn 2. It can still aggressively be played Turn 1 because you can telegraph that you're playing Thresh, hence your opponent will more than likely skip his first turn and just make a land drop because of the fear of Daze. You got an easy 1st Turn which is lead up by a deceiving Standstill Turn 2. Turn 3, you can Tap one land out because you only ever need 2 lands open for Counterspell.

I really do not see what the discussion is... ponder just isn't good enough for landstill, end of story.

I know Ponder isn't that great in Landstill, but what I'm trying to defend here is that Ponder isn't that bad of a card in Landstill. The fact that we were so quick in shooting down such a speculatively powerful card makes me cringe.

[Mister Agent]

Yeah I don't think there is anything wrong with running ponder in landstill at least for preliminary testing. I just don't think ponder is necassarily useful in landstill considering cantrips do nothing to opposing threats or creating other forms of beneficial CA in landstill.

Landstill has wide range of tools for the early game which can give little reason to include ponder. But even if the landstill player doesn't draw those early utility cards the deck is resilient enough to recover quite efficiently.

[Citrus-God]

I just don't think ponder is necassarily useful in landstill considering cantrips do nothing to opposing threats or creating other forms of beneficial CA in landstill.

It does do something to opposing threats; it finds answers. Standstill doesn't do anything against opposing threats; it requires that you be in a dominant board position in order for Standstill to be played.

Landstill has wide range of tools for the early game which can give little reason to include ponder. But even if the landstill player doesn't draw those early utility cards the deck is resilient enough to recover quite efficiently.

What if you don't find those answers? Ponder at least does that, which allows you to move into midgame.

[thefreakaccident]

What would you be cutting from the main decks to get the ponder into the list?

Utility spells? Power draw? Lands?


There isn't much to take out... without weakening the deck significantly in one way or another.

The lists are getting tighter and tighter nowadays... which is why I am so skeptical about trying to fit these additional cantrips into the deck.

[Mister Agent]

Well like I said if you feel ponder should be tested in landstill then there isn't anything wrong with testing. If you feel that you think it's beneficial then run it. Either way though why fix something that isn't broken? Landstill is still capable of recovering against opposing odds with or without ponder.

[Citrus-God]

What would you be cutting from the main decks to get the ponder into the list?

Utility spells? Power draw? Lands?

Exactly what this card is going to fill; utility slots. I'm saying Ponders are better than Stifles, if some people think Cunning Wish is clunky.

There isn't much to take out... without weakening the deck significantly in one way or another.

Of giving you more control over what your future draws will be.

The lists are getting tighter and tighter nowadays... which is why I am so skeptical about trying to fit these additional cantrips into the deck.

I doubt it. So many decklists have random slots that needed to be filled in. I just happen to think that Ponder might have a place there. I never really said run a playset of them.

Either way though why fix something that isn't broken? Landstill is still capable of recovering against opposing odds with or without ponder.

Because it needs to be explored?

[Mister Agent]

Because it needs to be explored?

Well you certainly can test ponder in the other utility slots I never said I was against testing the cantrip.

One of the greatest aspects of landstill you can basically reshape the deck for your metagame. Landstill is a adaptable deck and the archetype continues to strive on innovation.

[Pelikanudo]

@3Deuce and @IronStickman

Ive been thinkin that playing full set of Faeries instead mishras and lettin space for 4 wasteland+1 A.Ruins is the way to make a strong mana base because Factories are really clunkies is we really have a moat in play , for sure our opponent will have tons and tons of creaures in play , and what we need is evasion which F.Conclave provides, this land also produces blue in order to play c.b as soon as possible
the list will develop like this:
1 Eternal dragon
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell // in here I'm thinkin in cuttin 1 out instead 1 platinum Angel as supreme W.C
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance

1 Oblion Stone
1 Scroll rack
1 Pithin needle
1 Humility
1 Moat
1 Oblion Ring // this is the slot of 1 less E.E

1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives // only 1, do not like because of nedle replaced by O.R
2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Standstill // I'm not sure if 3 is the correct number mayb -1= +1 Jace .B

23 lands // Is 23 in this archetype enough ,I think so we run senseis and S.Rack
1 Academy Ruins
4 Faerie Conclave // four we want to draw them ALWAYS in our opening hand
4 Flooded Strand // 6 as minimum number of fetches
3 Island
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra // -1= +1 hallowed fountain? we wont be able to cast humil or moat if we are extirpate full set of Tundra...
4 Wasteland // to support mishras Factory we can really make an easy lock wasteland-crucible having access to 4 virtual crucible.

I really think Platinum Angel belongs to this archetype but I dont think what to take out, as well as a win cond the mindslaver, and now we'll have from 1 cost to 7 options to E.Tutor.

[Ironstickman]

One thing we must decide first is wehter to play Humility OR Moat.
Humility has the advantage of shutting down many problematic abilities of creatures and works greatfully with factorys. However, it doesn't avoid 1/1 hordes and makes our win conditions substantially slower (decree).
Moat however, will prevent damage while it stays around and enables us to play better wincons: dragon, exalted angel> platinum angel (think it is not tutoreable but its a lot cheaper and it cant be dienchanted) and hoofprints (this last is NOT a decisive wincon). On the downside, it works awfully with factorys.
The only flaw I see in landstill as a deck is that it doesnt have a clock, this situation is even more critical in this deck since you must leave mana open for counterbalance while finishing of with a factory.
Another point is that this archetype is not particulary viable at the moment due to the numerous artifact-enchantment hate. However, as i said, it depends much on the metagame so I think its worth a try.
My decision about humility/moat?
Card availability is a matter when it comes to moat,
Humility is a bit better at the moment due to arrising decks like survival/painters
So this is a list I would play:

TOPSTILL (as the creator called it)

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
3 Standstill

4 Swords to the Plowshares
3 Enlightened tutor
2 Wrath of God
1 Humility
1 O.Ring
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered explosives
2 Decree of justice
1 Eternal dragon
1 Control Magic
2 Sensei' diving top

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's factory
1 Wasteland
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
4 Tundra
4 Island
2 Plains


Sideboard (Some players dillute it excesively, playing to many wish targets)

3 Hydroblast
2 Tormod' crypt
1 Cop Red
1 Cop Green
1 Seal of cleasing
4 Meddling Mage
3 Runed Halo

Obviously this is not defintive, there are other cards that might deserve inclusion (such as wheel of sun and moon). I have cut down needle since it will invalidate your own cards in the mirror, mage is a better card . PLease suggest any other cards you would include.
The deck needs some testing though (I won't be able to play this deck in the near-future however)

By the way, Factory>>>>>Conclave despite conclave giving blue. Think that factory is a 3 defence while conclave is 1.
If the mirror match-up is your concern, i think that the crucible is determinant. You'll have better access to it via tutor and it is recuerable via ruins (that can be fetched by tolaria west)
you'll be grateful of playing 6 basics when you test the deck
The Control Magc slot is personal preference but maybe I should put another 3cc blue enchantment such as propaganda or threads of disloyalty.
Oblivion stone is an interesting card (tutorable, good cc for balance), but perhaps it is too slow and it is not inmediate. WoG is always secure.

@Pelikanudo

I'll be happy to work and develop more thoroughly this archetype. It is quite risky to play a card like counterbalace however (at times it is quite inconsistent).
Any suggestion about the list? Perhaps if we decide upon a list we can start to look closer against other matchups. My testing time is quite limited though

[Pelikanudo]

One thing we must decide first is wehter to play Humility OR Moat.
Humility has the advantage of shutting down many problematic abilities of creatures and works greatfully with factorys. However, it doesn't avoid 1/1 hordes and makes our win conditions substantially slower (decree).
Moat however, will prevent damage while it stays around and enables us to play better wincons: dragon, exalted angel> platinum angel (think it is not tutoreable but its a lot cheaper and it cant be dienchanted) and hoofprints (this last is NOT a decisive wincon). On the downside, it works awfully with factorys.
:

Well my friend what I intend to do in this deck is to establish a counterbalance -X engine and next, to use our silver bullets to handle the diffents threats
About Moat and Humilty I have to say that are different cards and not comparable, I mean they stop creatures but in different ways, Humilty handles cards like creatures with abilityes and flying creatures , Moat non flying creatures and non creatures with abilityies, therefore we HAVE to put both of them in base.They both form a great puzzle Simple.

Respect the single winCon , I 've been thinking In plati, rocket launcher
what Ive clear in mind is that It MUST be Enchantment OR artifact:

The only flaw I see in landstill as a deck is that it doesnt have a clock, this situation is even more critical in this deck since you must leave mana open for counterbalance while finishing of with a factory.
:

I do not intend to beat any deck with factoryes , for sure our opponent will have tons of creatures and we expect he has no many with flying ability

Another point is that this archetype is not particulary viable at the moment due to the numerous artifact-enchantment hate. However, as i said, it depends much on the metagame so I think its worth a try.
My decision about humility/moat?
Card availability is a matter when it comes to moat,
Humility is a bit better at the moment due to arrising decks like survival/painters :

well the only artifact/ench hate we must sacrie are the krosan grips . simple but thats why meddlinmagte makes sense
the other problem is E.E due t o its evasion ability for c.b thats why we play 1 main deck Nelde

[Ch@os]

Something like this: the one in the middle, second place

[Ironstickman]

Well, the problem I see is that if you play both Moat and Humility all your wincons will be affected:
your decree and factory's will be a colorless land and a bad cantrip under moat, whereas your platinum angel or eternal dragon will be an overcosted 1/1. I do however, include dragon since it is a mana fixer and it is great when humility isnot around or gets destroyed.

On the other hand, there will be times where you'll have your adecquate wincon and the right enchantment... So i guess you might be able to play both in the same deck without conflict between them (as in the list Chaos gives). I'm not quite sure...

Why do you necessarily need your wincon to be tutoreable?, (crucible is by the way)

As for the list Chaos gives,
yes it is quite what we are looking forward to , though its sideboard is not convincing for me
note that it plays 3 wasteland, whereas I 1 waste + ruin + tolaria

[torgar]

Just an observation. I've found that I like running x1 Nev. Disk in place of one Wrath of God since it allows you recurrable sweep with Academy Ruins.

That makes my creature control package

x2 Wrath of God
x1 N. Disk
x2 Humility
x3 EE
x4 StP

Funny enough, it helped me out versus an Elf deck. I've been playing this deck for a week now and haven't lost a full match.

My board is pretty standard for those running Wishes but I've been keeping one E. Plague in place of Pulse of the Fields since it's tutorable post-SB with Wish>E.Tutor. I haven't ever found a need for Pulse but I also haven't played against Burn. I still live in fear of Goblins.

Two general questions, how is the Goblin's MU and what is the boarding plan?
I assume standstill comes out because of Vial, M.mage comes in for blockers
I was thinking something like this:

-4 Standstill
-3 Cunning Wish
-1 Crucible of Worlds
-2 Counterspell
-1 D.o.J

+1 Engineered Plague
+4 Meddling Mage
+3 Runed Halo
+1 BEB
+1 Slaughter Pact
+1 E. Tutor


One other question, do you generally choose to play or draw with this deck? When playing MWC I always choose draw (unless G2 vs combo) for the extra card... with this deck I feel better having access to counterspell and standstill sooner then getting the extra card.. When I started I was always choosing to draw but now i've been leaning the other way.

[Ironstickman]

Well, if you choose play you'll be able to cast an early standstill more easilly since you have a more established board.

[thefreakaccident]

It depends on the Match up... Against an unknown deck though, you should always chose to play, as it gives you more options when trying t answer early threats....

I usually choose to draw against opposing control decks, but that is usually about it.

[Illissius]

Just an observation. I've found that I like running x1 Nev. Disk in place of one Wrath of God since it allows you recurrable sweep with Academy Ruins.

Do you really need that when you already have Engineered Explosives? I've found recurring Explosives to be brutal in a variety of decks, and it doesn't come into play tapped either. I'm not against diversifying the sweepers per se, I'm just sceptical of how much the "you can Academy it" argument is worth.

[Adan]

Do you really need that when you already have Engineered Explosives? I've found recurring Explosives to be brutal in a variety of decks, and it doesn't come into play tapped either. I'm not against diversifying the sweepers per se, I'm just sceptical of how much the "you can Academy it" argument is worth.

Nevinyrral's Disk was a try to have a card in the MD that plays/acts like Pernicious Deed. In theory, they are both the same: You play them, pass the turn, take 10 damage and then ignite it the turn after ftw. (well, hopefully).

The thing is that you (actually) never want to tap out for Pernicious Deed in the same turn just to sweep everything for 4 (or 3, insert a ridiculously small amount of mana in here) and then not having mana open for Counterspell or Standstill (which would be great at that moment). Nevinyrral's Disk sweeps everything for 1 Mana, and it's also less vulnerable to Stifle and colorless.

So it's basically a proxy-Pernicious Deed which can be recurred, giving you a different, slightly worse Wrath-effect, but in exchange gives you a very effective out against Chalice-aggros and Stax. You can tutor it as well when needed, but this is an obvious one...

[torgar]

And having Disk can circumvent a Needle on EE. I just find it more versatile and I hate drawing two Wraths early...

And occasionally the deck wants to blow something up with a higher CC than 3.

Any comments on the Goblins MU/boarding style?

[Citrus-God]

Any comments on the Goblins MU/boarding style?

As for boarding against Vial Goblins, boarding in Meddling Mage against them is bad. Here's how you should board against them though;

-2 Cunning Wish
-2 Standstill

+1 BEB
+3 Runed Halo


Or something like that. You really shouldn't board in Mages because they're just a road block if you draw into them.

If you run E-Plagues in the SB, I recommend you replace Runed Halos for boarding. So yes, I'm saying run 3 copies.

[ChiiMagic]

And having Disk can circumvent a Needle on EE. I just find it more versatile and I hate drawing two Wraths early...

And occasionally the deck wants to blow something up with a higher CC than 3.

Any comments on the Goblins MU/boarding style?

Nevi Disk is actually really good as a one or two of due to it's ability to dodge stifles in a thresh matchup, and it makes you mono white stax matchup better because you clear their whole board as opposed to one or 2 lock pieces.

As far as the goblins matchup is concerned, when on the draw, I almost always take out at least 3 standstills due to their powerful turn 1 and twos. Aether vial, goblin lackey, and piledriver can all hurt your standstill, if not make it completely useless. You need the STP if they play a lackey to make your standstill have any merit, or the FOW for the Aether vial.

On the play though, I will only board out 2 standstills because they only have one turn to ruin your turn 2 standstill hand.

What to bring in is completely dependent on what if at all you splash a third color, and what SB choices you make. I splash red and just pyroclasm them out of the game.