Hello again,
respect to the deck I was developing in order to get a good matchup in mirror I mean vs LAndstill I'll post the following premises:
1) Its supossed that counterbalance is the best weapon we can have vs any kind of control deck
2) the counterbalance just makes a great pieze of the puzzle vs control mirror
3) the cards we can not handle with c.b are :
-E.Explosives :due to its ability of beeing played as a for instance a 5 mana converted cost
-Decree of justice :due to its cycling ability
-A pernicius played before a counterbalance lands the table
-Things with the split second ability (althouth the triggered ability of our c.b can counter that): we are suposed we won't face at least in the first game stuff like krosan or extirpate , therefore I found playing 4 meddlin mages in base naming those acrds are a must.
Because we play counterbalance that make a great piece of the puzzle , we NEED more cards that makes the puzzle, I have to say that in this deck the c.b MUST counter everything that are not the before things said.
well a great card that has whole synergy with c.b is Enlitghned tutor , and this card even provides an easier way to get the other parts of the puzzle.
Therefore to handle the other things we will need:
- Pithin needle: a must , it avoids mainly :1) E.E 2) a perni in play 3) decree
- moat : this mainly stops decree and the most of the meta creatures
- humility : this stops the creatures that moat can't handle
- Oblivion stone: this card is GREAT in testing : it provides a 3 cc. and a complete puzzle due not only to its ability of cleaning the board even it makes our cards in play stay in play.
- Oblivion ring: this card is another 3 cc and makes the puzzle against every thing that are not lands
- E.Explosives: this destroys opposite c.b.
- Senseis and scrollrack: the first one is obvious, the second one I' ve to say that is even better than senseis in synergy with c.b :why? because S.Rack allows us to get a bigger range of availability of cards between the cards IN HAND and the cards on the top.
I ve to say that I've tested wrath of god in this deck and I found it clunky because:
a) if we get to land a moat we really dont need to clean the board unless we cant attack with our creatures to give death to our opponent
b) its not searchable by one of our tutors so we HAVE to draw it : it can OR can not appear.
c) Having in mind that wrath just clean the board we really need creatures with evasion mainly Flying ability, thats why I preferred to play Faery conclave instead factory. For sure mishra is way better , but its not evasive a win cond .
Well therefore the conclusion of the deck is:
4 Swords to plowshares
4 counterbalance
4 FoW
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
2 Semseis d.t
1 scroll Rack // you all boys have to try this card ,shines¡¡ many times with
//c.b in play our oppon has played tarmo,hymn,anything of 2c.c and we in
//resp play tutor->scrollrack ->counter his 2cc and draw in next turn the
//most synergistic card in conjunction with c.b: this is a pricessless
1 Moat
1 Humility // somebody think that if we play moat we dont really need Humility but I
//think otherwise If we land moat the next card we WANT to land is, of
//course Humility
1 E.Explosives
1 Pithin nedle
1 Oblivion ring
1 Oblivion Stone
2 eternal dragon // great cards it provides even a sufle effect if needed
2 standstill // I find the 2 standstill 2 E.dragon the correct number instead of
//3 standstills
3 Enlitghned tutor
1 crucible of worlds.
Lands:
4 Islands
1 plain
1 academy ruins
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 Tundra
4 wasteland // I really feel comfortable playing 4 of them
3 Faery conclave // before I plñayed 4 but we really need this card soon its
//our large term win cond.
Impressions: Seems to be the perfect deck of puzzle pieces to me, but I'd like to include 1 more plains or 1 more hallowed fountain , as before Imentioned I 'm really scaried of extirpate->tundra, even If our opp lands any kind of moon eff we never will be able to land a moat or humility due to its WW cost.
I need advice about the land configuration, I'm not yet working in the side but of course it at least will have:
1 C.O.P. Red : stops burn and gobbos
1 C.O.P green : stops tres and stompy
1 Energy Flux : stops Stax and Aff
1-2 Tormods crypt
1 Runed halo : due to the GREAT puzzle it provides vs combo
4 meddlin mage : Soooo great in this deck
cards that maybe will be in side :
- B.E.B
-wrath of god
- spellsnare : to avoid opp. c.b
- the card that by 3 mana destorys all Gobbos, I dont know its name
- ...
Oppinions Impressions?
There is one huge problem with your strategy: they need to land a single Deed to neuter a lot of the cards you have as a 1-of.
I've had this happening to me a couple times. You get top, CB, Moat and crucible down to have the guy deed them all off. And now your deck is empty.
Moat is dumb strong against a lot of decks, but not ones packing EE, Deed or Burning Wish.
Anyway, if you want to play Tutor and targets, I'd add basics to the deck, cut a 3 wastelands and a delta for an off-color dual (scrubland seems to be the best one for Dragon, Explosives and SB options), a Tolaria West, an island and a plains. 7 basics with 2 plains let you cast your deck and do dragon tricks under wastelock and moons.
Also, Hoofprints of the Stag fits your tutoring plan and drives the beats with a Moat out.
well you' re ritgh at this point but in the deck I wrote above in base we have a solution to this trouble moreover the 8 counterspell effects: Pithin Nelde ,even we have 4 virtual nedles. Not problem at all manOriginally Posted by bruno_tiete
That's Tividar's Crusade. No comment.
My opinion is your post is hard to read without getting a headache.
The advantage is the synergy with Humility. While StP CAN be very annoying, being able to outweigh all your opponents' creatures in one on one confrontations is very nice. For the most part, you just devote your counters to protecting Humility and Mishra's.
I don't think Vitu-Ghazi is strong enough to justify a splash. I wouldn't be objectionable to Urza's but I run a minimum of 5 basics as it is.
Actually, if you are not counting on drawing your singletons, you are much more like having 7 CB, 3 scroll racks, 3 SDT's, 1 moats, 1 crucibles, 1 needle and 1 Explosives.
Seriously, you cant cut them all and them claim to have 3 tutors which become functional 4 of each singleton. It's like every single time you tutor for something, you reduce your odds of getting some other tutor target you may need in this same game. In that, having all 4 SDT help a lot in your not-tutored finds.
Are you gonna search up Needle before throwing Crucible out all the time in the control mirrors?
Hi,
I think if you want a control deck with counterbalance, you can take a look at TEC thread. Although I haven't tested it myself, it is supposed to be good against some builds of Landstill.
I'm not sure I agree with these assumptions. The Landstill (and controls deck in general) curve varies a lot, so it's much harder to hit something with counterbalance than it is against Thresh. Besides, UWx builds usually have Eternal Dragon, manlands, DoJ and Engineered Explosives, among other cards that can work pretty normally against Counterbalance.
Of course the counter-top engine is awesome, I'm just not sure it is the best tool against Landstill. What you can say from your experience against other landstill builds?
I know it has already been discussed a little bit, but I also don't like the disynergy (is this a word?) betweeen Humility and Moat. I also think Faerie Conclave is too slow (CiP tapped) and mana-intensive (3 mana for 2 damage).
And Oblivion Stone seems so sloooooow, it just begs for stifle. Isn't Nevinyrral Disk a lot better?
O-Stone need more mana: YES!
O-Stone is slower: not really
play O-Stone 3rd Turn, activate 5th Turn.
play Disk 4th Turn, activate 5th Turn.
In the early game Disk is better because you have to tap out only once.
But in the late game O-Stone is better because you can activate it the Turn you played O-Stone and you can protect your humility.
Atm I play a 2/1 WoG/Stone Split.
Originally Posted by Pinder
Turns out that some weird chemical reaction between the Twinkie filling and Ranch Dressing opens up a portal straight into Hell, through which the Devil is then able to shit directly into your mouth.
QFT. If you want a nifty deck with counterbalance and goyf and planeswalkers then this is what you're looking for TEC. It's a completely different deck though!
I recently played against that style deck that also ran Trinket Mage toolbox Crypt/Needle/EE alongside Countertop. The match was very intense, detail-oriented and LONG. Best of three took over 90 minutes on MWS. But like the primer said, UW Landstill has the advantage. Obviously the key is to not let them assemble Countertop which isn't too difficult being that they only run FoW help get it through. However, being able to operate under Standstill means you also have options under Countertop. For example, in the first game, I used Tolaria West to fetch Ruins giving me recurring EE pressure, baiting Countertop to put the Top on top of their deck with StPs at Goyfs allowing a EE to get through for two. Likewise, in similar fashion, if you can get off two spells with different CCs in the same turn you can usually get a spell through. Furthermore, countering Disk, Humility, FoW, Dragon, DoJ with a counterbalance is difficult or impossible. All except Dragon are very relevant in the MU. (This is because of their Shackles. Unless you assemble CoW/Waste but then you're probably winning already)
Landing a Humility is huge. Then their only serious weapon is that blue decking Planeswalker. You can win the game on the back of Mishra's/DoJ. But G2&3 I sided Halo since their only threats seemed to be Trinket Mage and Goyf. And, woweezowee, Halo works versus that Planeswalker guy too. Or you can just swing at it with tokens.
The only thing playing that MU makes me wish I had in my deck was Pithing Needle. I may replace a Halo in the SB with a Needle to bring in for randomness like Hoofprints, etc.
It is definitely a winnable MU if you know what you are doing and understand how their deck works.
All true, all previously discussed. Conclave and Stone are no good. Moat is ok if you're running Hoofprints but IMHO Humility+DoJ is much better way to go. Creature abilities can be a bitch.
On a different note, I was musing that if you added Petrified Field to the main deck and a Intuition to the sideboard. You could Cunning Wish for all your landlock pieces. This would be really helpful when you lose your legendary Ruins in the mirror-like MUs. I don't know if there is really room for this silliness tho.
I don't really buy the Ajani giving you the ability to go aggro faster argument. I realize he does other things, like gives you some life and a turn they have to spend attacking him instead of you.
Let's look at scenarios with the the following hypothetical totally broken card {Stupidity Tutor, 0, Sorcery, Search all zones for a card you own, put that card in your hand. Then shuffle your library.}:
You have 0 Mishra's Factory in play. Assuming colored mana isn't an issue for, what card (that's Legacy legal) do you want to grab most (at what amounts of mana, clearly at large amounts of mana, this thought experiment loses any possible practical application)?
1 Mishra's Factory.
2 Mishra's Factories.
3 Mishra's Factories.
2 DoJ Tokens.
3 DoJ Tokens.
4 DoJ Tokens.
5 DoJ Tokens.
Essentially my argument is that at the lower amounts of guys you have in play, there's bound to be a large number of times where grabbing Tarmogoyf is a good play. Clearly with 4 and 5 DoJ tokens out, topdecking Ajani is a huge payoff in that you now have an army of vigilant 2/2s and just got in for 4 or 5 more damage the same turn. That payoff of including the card in the deck can only be capitalized on in the late game, though.
I'm just interested in which amounts of mana you "grab Ajani with Stupidity Tutor" in the above scenarios over "grab a card that's a threat on it's own."
Also for the record, I've only ever seen Planeswalkers last abilities activated after DeathCloud has resolved. If you have so much control that you can sit around waiting to power Ajani up to get an X/X token creature (while you have no other threats), then Goyf would have been just as good of a topdeck in a situation where you need a threat (it swings 3 times by the time the token swings once).
How is this necessarily a bad thing? Subsequently I disagree with Wrath being "fundamental" to Landstills game plan. You need a way to control the board. From a strictly theoretical perspective, this could be achieved with any number of removal and card advantage spells. Whether it takes the form of Wrath doing both, or the form of Krosan Grip + Swords to Plowshares + Stroke of Genius (clealry, Stroke isn't a practical card in Legacy).
In any event, EE + Ruins is about the most lopsided thing you can do to any deck that relies on permanents to win. EE gives you the option of not hitting your own things (Tokens, Goyfs, etc), which is a plus. Obviously, with 3 colors, you aren't going to be taking out Rakdos Pit Dragons with it, but you really should have drawn a Swords to Plowshares or SB BEB by the time DStompy starts dropping it's game ending threats.
Wrath of God [rath uhv god] -noun 1. Removal and Card Advantage Spell.
EE = 0,1,2 and sometimes 3. Putting in permanents with these CCs means you'll be more apt to hit your own things or be forced to work around your own deck.
Way to not read the very next sentence.
My point remains that based strictly on theoretical reasoning, Wrath is not "fundamental" to the strategy Landstill is implementing.Whether it takes the form of Wrath doing both, or the form of Krosan Grip + Swords to Plowshares + Stroke of Genius (clealry, Stroke isn't a practical card in Legacy).
Is it a good card? Sure.
Is your deck somehow not qualifiable as Landstill if you don't play it? Hell no.
As for EE, Wrath doesn't come back whenever you need it like EE does with Ruins out. There's two strategies against mass removal. Slow roll your threats and force them to one for one you, or bust all your guys on the board and hope you kill the opponent our put them in burn range before they draw/play Wrath. EE + Ruins allows you to completely shut out the first option as a viable strategy.
Well... there's also playing the Avatar token with it's power/toughness that are both equal to the amount of life you have. This should put the Aggro Loam player in a fix.
Or you make a ton of life, and throw a giant ass Avatar token into play if Humility gets removed.Essentially my argument is that at the lower amounts of guys you have in play, there's bound to be a large number of times where grabbing Tarmogoyf is a good play. Clearly with 4 and 5 DoJ tokens out, topdecking Ajani is a huge payoff in that you now have an army of vigilant 2/2s and just got in for 4 or 5 more damage the same turn. That payoff of including the card in the deck can only be capitalized on in the late game, though.
Or you can activate it because you can against a deck like Aggro Loam or Stax.Also for the record, I've only ever seen Planeswalkers last abilities activated after DeathCloud has resolved. If you have so much control that you can sit around waiting to power Ajani up to get an X/X token creature (while you have no other threats), then Goyf would have been just as good of a topdeck in a situation where you need a threat (it swings 3 times by the time the token swings once).
Yes, but by following this approach, you're using your draw spells to help you fight 1-for-1 attrition wars. Sometimes you need WoG to help you reset the board state. I know EE can produce a lot of Card Advantage on it's own, but it's not enough usually. As for WoG, WoG is still good if your opponent assembles Counterbalance/Top. Goyf can't be played after that.How is this necessarily a bad thing? Subsequently I disagree with Wrath being "fundamental" to Landstills game plan. You need a way to control the board. From a strictly theoretical perspective, this could be achieved with any number of removal and card advantage spells. Whether it takes the form of Wrath doing both, or the form of Krosan Grip + Swords to Plowshares + Stroke of Genius (clealry, Stroke isn't a practical card in Legacy).
EE + Ruins is very lopsided indeed, but against decks like Vial Goblins or Aggro Loam, it might not be so hot.In any event, EE + Ruins is about the most lopsided thing you can do to any deck that relies on permanents to win. EE gives you the option of not hitting your own things (Tokens, Goyfs, etc), which is a plus. Obviously, with 3 colors, you aren't going to be taking out Rakdos Pit Dragons with it, but you really should have drawn a Swords to Plowshares or SB BEB by the time DStompy starts dropping it's game ending threats.
As for EE, Wrath doesn't come back whenever you need it like EE does with Ruins out. There's two strategies against mass removal. Slow roll your threats and force them to one for one you, or bust all your guys on the board and hope you kill the opponent our put them in burn range before they draw/play Wrath. EE + Ruins allows you to completely shut out the first option as a viable strategy.
Or you could play a board sweeper and follow up with a Goyf. This should give you card advantage and a dominant position you can capitalize on, such as Goyf.
I mean, by playing Goyf, you're making the opponent's removal useful. You should use board sweepers as a back-up plan in case your opponent has removal. I know Tarmogoyf serves as virtual card advantage as a blocker, but sometimes it won't hold up very long simply because of the presence of some form of creature removal in every control and aggro-control list.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
A couple points:
In all the instances where you have the time to make an X/X token, drawing and playing Goyf essentially does the same thing with the exception of not having gained some life in the process.
Against a deck like aggro loam, you're going to be bringing Crucibles and Tormod's Crypts in to mitigate the damage Wasteland can do. That said, I think there's a fair amount of the time you'd still have Ruins going with EE. It won't be pretty trying to go for 3 mana (because you really want Crucible sticking around), but at zero (Mox Diamond) and 2 (Goyf, Bob), you should be doing quite a damage and forcing them to draw more Vores/Crushers/Assaults then you draw Swords, Counterspell, and Krosan Grips just to force you to off your own Crucible to down their fatty, and have a Wasteland ready to go for the Academy Ruins on top of that. EE is a beating against them since their threats are clogged at 2 and 3, and their acceleration is at zero.
I will admit that against Goblins, that playing without Wrath is likely a poor choice (assuming you aren't playing the Cunning Wish version for something like Starstorm). However, I think the metagame has heavily shifted away from Goblins. It no longer commands anywhere near the 15% of the field marks we used to see. It usually works out that at a local tournament you see maybe 1 Goblin deck, and at a large tournament (33+) you see maybes 3. Furthermore, Goblins has such poor answers to Tarmogoyf. Obviously, not allowing them to have Vial is key, once that happens, you can typically afford to play the attrition 1 removal spell for 1 creature game against them by playing Standstills & Brainstorms, and not allowing Ringleaders or Seige-Gangs to resolve because Goyf, EE, Swords, DoJ, Factory & Dragon are better than cards like Fanatic, Matron, Warchief, Lackey.
In short, I'm unsure cards that cards the wipe all creatures are currently a necessity in Legacy. At the Syracuse 1k tournament we had the following T8:
Ichorid (doesn't care about Wrath)
ITF (doesn't care about Wrath)
Landstill (doesn't care about Wrath)
1 Red Thresh/Thrash (cares about Crucible more)
1 5 color Thresh (cares about Crucible more)
1 TES (doesn't care about Wrath)
1 Survival (cares about Krosan Grip and Tormod's Crypt more)
1 Dreadstill (cares about Krosan Grip more)
Survival for all intents and purposes cares about landing it's namesake. Otherwise against Landstill, it's really not doing a whole lot, whether you draw Wrath or not. Dreadstill seems 100% dead in the water against you with maindeck Krosan Grips, Wrath or not. They can't try to play the mirror under Standstill, you cycle DoJ and win the long game. That leaves Threshold. I think Threshold fears Engineered Explosives much more than Wrath as it can take out Counterbalance and Goyf simultaneously while dodging the 2cc card on the top of their library. Wrath is just going to be an over costed, sorcery speed Diabolic Edict against them essentially. Why not consider Goyf instead?
As far as testing goes, I'm a fan of playing against the gauntlet with a 4 proxies in a deck and whenever you play it you choose X (Goyf) or Y (Wrath) as the card you're playing. Then at the end of the test session, you see which you chose more often, and how often it was the right play.
They'll just play their down Goyf and block it all day. Then they'll follow that up with a Countryside Crusher and start dredging. If that Goyf had been that X/X token, then the opponent will be under pressure and then forced to block with his Goyf and Countryside Crusher.
I admit, against Aggro Loam, having Crypts, Crucibles, and EE is better.Against a deck like aggro loam, you're going to be bringing Crucibles and Tormod's Crypts in to mitigate the damage Wasteland can do. That said, I think there's a fair amount of the time you'd still have Ruins going with EE. It won't be pretty trying to go for 3 mana (because you really want Crucible sticking around), but at zero (Mox Diamond) and 2 (Goyf, Bob), you should be doing quite a damage and forcing them to draw more Vores/Crushers/Assaults then you draw Swords, Counterspell, and Krosan Grips just to force you to off your own Crucible to down their fatty, and have a Wasteland ready to go for the Academy Ruins on top of that. EE is a beating against them since their threats are clogged at 2 and 3, and their acceleration is at zero.
Just because a Goyf stands there doesnt stop Goblins from attacking with a ton of random dorks like Fanatics and Hooligans and Matrons. The point of Goblins is to take your life down to 0. It's going to be awfully hard trying to persuade the Goblin player not to attack because he's just going to refill his hand with more dorks if you don't stall until you wipe the board clean and have Goyf seal the game up. It's also going to be rather hard to use EE as midgame removal unless you get it going with Ruins because it's more than likely going to be used to blow up Lackeys and Vials.I will admit that against Goblins, that playing without Wrath is likely a poor choice (assuming you aren't playing the Cunning Wish version for something like Starstorm). However, I think the metagame has heavily shifted away from Goblins. It no longer commands anywhere near the 15% of the field marks we used to see. It usually works out that at a local tournament you see maybe 1 Goblin deck, and at a large tournament (33+) you see maybes 3. Furthermore, Goblins has such poor answers to Tarmogoyf. Obviously, not allowing them to have Vial is key, once that happens, you can typically afford to play the attrition 1 removal spell for 1 creature game against them by playing Standstills & Brainstorms, and not allowing Ringleaders or Seige-Gangs to resolve because Goyf, EE, Swords, DoJ, Factory & Dragon are better than cards like Fanatic, Matron, Warchief, Lackey.
Then in this case, Ichorid probably doesnt care about Goyfs either than. At least WoGs can wipe the board clean of Zombie tokens as an additional out to EE.Ichorid (doesn't care about Wrath)
Goyf gets Countered by CB. WoG can at least wipe that Goyf off the board.ITF (doesn't care about Wrath)
Goyfs dont do much in the mirror either.Landstill (doesn't care about Wrath)
Your Goyfs can get Spell Snared and traded with. Crucibles dont help you survive. WoG can wipe the board clean of critters. Of course, I think Thresh cares more about Humility more than CoW or WoG.1 Red Thresh/Thrash (cares about Crucible more)
I still don't see how Crucibles protect you from Goyfs and Enforcers. Crucible is a mana stabilizer and a win condition, not an answer. Also, they care about Humility more.1 5 color Thresh (cares about Crucible more)
I think they care about Humility more. Also, your Goyfs die to your own EEs as well in this MU.1 Survival (cares about Krosan Grip and Tormod's Crypt more)
I think Humility would solve a lot of problems here had you land that.1 Dreadstill (cares about Krosan Grip more)
Yes, but then they'll bait every Swords, EE, and Counter out of you and will eventually Thoughtseize + Enforcer you ftw.I think Threshold fears Engineered Explosives much more than Wrath as it can take out Counterbalance and Goyf simultaneously while dodging the 2cc card on the top of their library.
And sometimes EE will be an overcosted sorcery speed Edict as well then. Also, Goyf dies to Counterbalance.Wrath is just going to be an over costed, sorcery speed Diabolic Edict against them essentially. Why not consider Goyf instead?
I have not tested this yet. I will look into it. It might be play style in which we differ, because I want all my cards to be dead against my opponents. This is why I am also an advocate of not running creatures and boarding out Humility.As far as testing goes, I'm a fan of playing against the gauntlet with a 4 proxies in a deck and whenever you play it you choose X (Goyf) or Y (Wrath) as the card you're playing. Then at the end of the test session, you see which you chose more often, and how often it was the right play.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
If they have creatures of their own that you can't counter/kill, then Ajani is awful anyways (read, gets attacked for card disadvantage). That's entirely my point. Ajani is only a threat against an open board. If you have an open board and no threats of your own in play, Tarmogoyf will suffice.
This is wrong. Goyf doesn't stand there. He swings putting pressure on the Goblins player to block or to race. The idea is that if they try to race, they typically lose because you will have drawn Factories, Swords, EE's, BEB (out of the board), and DoJ to take out their guys. If they try to play the control (without Aether Vial), they lose because you will start forcing them to block Goyf. When they get to the point where they can actually take down a Goyf with their guys, you either win off of Swords keeping their guy from killing Goyf, 3 or 4 for 1'ing them, or by that point you don't mind trading your Goyf for 3 or 4 guys because you've drawn another Goyf, can drop Standstill post combat, are on 7 mana to make Dragon, etc.Just because a Goyf stands there doesnt stop Goblins from attacking with a ton of random dorks like Fanatics and Hooligans and Matrons.
My argument is that there's no point at which they have a way to do this without Aether Vial on the average draw. On the nut draw, yeah, they get there. They would have gotten their on the nut draw no matter what you were playing unless it had the potential to kill on turn 2.The point of Goblins is to take your life down to 0.
Both of these statements are wrong. Wrath won't do anything as you can't play it before turn 4 in this deck. Even if they're going DDD plan on you, you're screwed and Wrath is only stalling at best. Goyf at the very least presents a 4 turn clock against them if you're lucky enough for them to dredge nothing of use, or if you get lucky enough to draw the double StP, EE hand (you StP their Narcos or preferably their Ichorids in their draw step, and leave EE around so they can't combo, allowing you to swing with Goyf).Then in this case, Ichorid probably doesnt care about Goyfs either than. At least WoGs can wipe the board clean of Zombie tokens as an additional out to EE.
This is 100% false.Goyfs dont do much in the mirror either.
Seriously, how did you come to this conclusion?
In the mirror:
Goyf comes down on turn 2, creating pressure. If he swings for 5 or more damage before dying, and trades 1 for 1 with an opponent's removal spell, he's done his job.
Further, Goyf draws StP, allowing Dragon to do it's job (never die).
Goyf creates opportunities to capitalize on opponent's poor luck (Wrath does not) by pushing into the red zone.
So because something can happen, means I shouldn't play a card? Bryant's Burning Wishes after he sacrifices Lion's Eye Diamond can get Force of Willed. Do you know when the last time I saw Bryant play a non-TES deck in a Legacy tournament was (GP Flash and it's grinders don't count)?Your Goyfs can get Spell Snared and traded with.
For starters, if it lands it does help you survive by ensuring that their tempo from Wasteland and Stifle are temporary. Next, it helps you survive by playing your own Wasteland and cutting them off of green mana, so they can't resolve Goyfs and Mongeese of their own. If you both have Goyfs staring at each other, it allows you to cut them off of Red mana ensuring they can't try to trade a Bolt with your Goyf, or bluff the Bolt to get in for 5 with their Goyf.Crucibles dont help you survive.
I'm about 75% certain this is incorrect. Thresh basically scoops it to Crucible + Waste, or Crucible + Factory (barring Krosan Grip). In comparison, Thresh scoops to Humility + Factory, assuming you get to 4 mana (against the versions with Waste + Stifle).I think Thresh cares more about Humility more than CoW
Simple. They never play Goyfs or Enforcers because they have no lands. Trust me, Threshold cares much more about getting locked out of the game, then they care about their guys turning into 1/1s.I still don't see how Crucibles protect you from Goyfs and Enforcers.
Only if you're an idiot. EE is only going to come down with 2 counters when you have a Goyf of your own out if it's going to trade 2 (Goyf + EE) for 2 (Goyf + Goyf/CBalance) or better. This is a trade you can live with. Threshold plays cantrips, you play card advantage. More likely it's going to come down pre-emptively on 2, forcing them to hold back, allowing you to make up tempo, and drop a Goyf after you blow it.Also, your Goyfs die to your own EEs as well in this MU.
What problems do you have against Dreadstill? Seriously. The only scenario in which I can envision Landstill losing to Dreadstill is them resolving and protecting their 12/12. Humility, like Wrath, in this situation is probably too slow. Seriously. Dreadstill should never be a problem for Landstill, especially a version with maindeck Krosan Grips.I think Humility would solve a lot of problems here
Highly unlikely. Have you played this match up without Wrath before? I have, Landstill still wins when it gets to 5 mana (Goyf + Standstill around Daze), or alternatively when it sticks Crucible + Waste. Enforcer never sticks even without Humility and Wrath.Yes, but then they'll bait every Swords, EE, and Counter out of you and will eventually Thoughtseize + Enforcer you ftw.
Sometimes. Not all of the times (since it has the potential to take out Counterbalance also).And sometimes EE will be an overcosted sorcery speed Edict as well then.
This is the same as your Spell Snare argument, not logically sound.Also, Goyf dies to Counterbalance.
I don't think you can race Goblins with a Goyf. I haven't actually tested this, but given they don't land a Ringleader and unless you get either EE or Factory (both mana-hungry early) and StP for Piledriver to seems pretty unlikely.
I'm not sure how it could be argued that Goyf is better than WoG in the Goblin MU.
Wrath is pretty useless against Ichorid.
Eh, I'd still rather have Wrath then Goyf in the mirror. I don't really fear Goyf that much because I do have so much removal. I'd rather make my opponents removal dead then putting in a card that surely will trade 1 for 1 with a removal spell and possibly never even swing/resolve. As far as Dragon goes, I almost never win the mirror with him. (Or most matches as he's a x1) I win off of a slew of uncounterable Solider tokens. And in the mirror the best approach against this defending this is (in order):
1. EE for 0. But any non-comatose opponents is going to clear board of EE before cycling DoJ. Also, two players running Ruins means I might not have recurrable EE at my disposal.
2. Cycling my own DoJ and defending. Ick. This is supposed to be my win card, not my not-lose card.
3. Take the hit and Wrath next turn.
I'll discuss the Thresh MU later.
You just said you haven't test this. I have. Goyf allows you to race against Goblins. Your priorities are:
Don't allow Lackey to connect.
Keep Vial from hitting 3 mana. Still winnable if it does, but basically unwinnable when it hit 4.
Counter Ringleader and Siege-Gang Commanders. It is possible to allow SGC to resolve, but only if they're tapping out to do so and you have the Swords ready to go for him.
If you can manage that, Goyf allows you to race as you'll be drawing removal spells for their Piledrivers and Warcheifs. The cards you really care about from them are:
Vial (out tempos you, allows them to play their game)
Lackey connecting (unlikely after turn 3 or so).
Ringleader (is a Fact or Fiction)
SGC (gives them reach, blockers, attackers, etc)
Warcheif
Piledriver
Again, the top 4 are your priorities. Killing of Warchiefs and Piledrivers should be fairly straight forward as you should just be able to draw into StPs, EEs, and Factories to block with. In this match EE on 1 and 3 are your preemptive settings (@1 Vial, Lackey, Fanatic, @3 Warchief, Matron, occassionally Incinerator if they're a bad player).
My argument isn't that it's better than Wrath against Goblins. My argument is that Goblins is still a manageable match up with Goyf over Wrath, and that Goblins metagame presence is so diminished at this point, so why are we clinging to board sweepers if Goblins is the only reason we want them when we can test other cards that help more in other match ups?I'm not sure how it could be argued that Goyf is better than WoG in the Goblin MU.
So, you'd rather play dead answers (Wrath) than threats that will likely die (Goyf)?Eh, I'd still rather have Wrath then Goyf in the mirror. I don't really fear Goyf that much because I do have so much removal. I'd rather make my opponents removal dead then putting in a card that surely will trade 1 for 1 with a removal spell and possibly never even swing/resolve.
If your opponent Counterspells Goyf your chances of winning should be greatly increasing as that's one less Counter they have to fight with over cards like Crucible, Fact or Fiction, and Standstill.
Sure, that doesn't negate the fact that Goyf drawing Swords is actually a good thing for you by giving more options later on (1 in terms of life, ie you can fetch more, afford to race, etc, the other in terms of not being stuck without the ability to recur Dragon).As far as Dragon goes, I almost never win the mirror with him. (Or most matches as he's a x1) I win off of a slew of uncounterable Solider tokens.
I've played the mirror a lot. Taking the hit and Wrathing the next turn is about the worst thing that can happen. All of a sudden you're on 6 life and are forced to draw a DoJ for their next one, and are forced to draw a Swords for their Dragon. If you don't have a DoJ to answer their tokens (or a pre-emptive EE@0), you're usually screwed.
Here's a sample hand for the mirror:
1 Brainstorm
1 Island
1 Flooded Strand
1 X
1 Standstill
1 Wasteland
1 Counterspell
Seems reasonable/average right? You're telling me you'd rather that card were Wrath than Goyf?
Even if my opponent's hand is something brutal (not allowing you to Go -> Goyf, Standstill on subsequent turns), like:
1 Swords
1 Tundra
1 Polluted
1 Misrha's
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Counterspell
1 Force of Will
I'd rather have Goyf there every time in the mirror. Your opponent's removal turning into live spells in exchange for your dead spells turning into live spells is a trade off worth investigating at the very least.
Just thought I'd drop by to tell how I've lost the finals of an 87-person online tournament with UWb Landstill with the best brain fart ever:
It's the second game, I have won the first. I'm at 2, with a full hand including multiple FoWs and a Cunning Wish. I have Humility in play and lots of lands, all tapped.
My opponent plays Meddling Mage. I think about Forcing it, then decide to let it resolve since I can just Wish into Pulse of the Fields and easily ignore the 1/1 beatdown, and i can hardcast the FoWs to protect that instead.
I say "Ok, resolves". The opponent asks how Mage works under Humility. I tell him that he still names a card, but the ability doesn't do anything until Humility leaves the table.
He says "Ok", thinks for a bit, and names Cunning Wish.
Two turns later, I die to 1/1 beatdown with Wish still in hand.
I only realise my mistake after losing game three...
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Actually goblins doesn't really care about goyf since they will swing regardless it's part of their strategy. Unless you have an time walking engine like engineered plagues or pyroclasms tarmogoyf would be no threat to them. On the other hand, humility can be quite devastating against goblins especially since it nullifies almost all of the card advantage they have instilled in them. When playing landstill for me I'd rather take consistency/resilency over power as referring to tarmogoyf.
Team Hammafist!
Ok, I went and threw in Tarmogoyfs in place of WoGs despite a nauseous feeling in my stomach that he totally didn't belong and played a match vs Goblins.
No no no no no no no no no no.. There is no chance that's viable. You can't win versus Goblins. I'd much rather drop Standstill on turn 2 then a mediocre blocker. You can't even fill the graveyard fast enough to make him relevant. You'll usually get an instant and maybe a fetchland.
If you're determined to get rid of the primary white control core of the deck (Humility/Wrath) you need some other form of control which would probably come in the form of Shackles.
As far as Goblins having a diminished presence in the metagame, Goblins will always be around in decent numbers and it's a good standard to judge how your deck fairs against creature-based strategies.
Removing Wrath and Humility is a mistake. You can't say I haven't tried now!
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