[OLD] UGr Threshold

[MULocke]

I suggested playing it main. You run half of a combo deck that needs 4 mana and at least one of them red to slowcombo and the other half of the deck is vulnerable to LD, too which Canadian Thresh/Landstill/SuiBlack/Goblins run. On top of that has alot of other targets against Landstill (Factories) and Affinity. Shutting of Vial also removes quite some pressure in the Goblin matchup... I think they are really that good maindeck in your meta.

It's not really too vulnerable to LD because of no wastes in the swan version (I hope), which leaves room for a few basics. I'm running three to have room for blood moons in the SB to shut down bad manabases.

[arsenalpow]

http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?e...onvention+38th

2 UGr lists made top 8 and both decks had a little bit of tech that I think might be useful to the tempo thresh builds. Chain Lightning

A c/b threshold list usually contains 8 sorceries (4 ponder / 4 thoughtseize) Which is 4 more sorceries that are contained in a typical tempo thresh list. One thing about tempo thresh (at least for me) is that the goyf is usually pretty small because we only put lands and instants in the yard. Sometimes we can pick off a creature with a bolt or fire//ice which gives the goyf some more food, but usually we have to rely on the opponent to drop other card types in the yard.

We could take the normal tempo list and make the following swap.

-4 fire//ice
+4 chain lightning

Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force Of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Rushing River (customizable, i like EE here sometimes as well)
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

Sorceries
4 Chain Lightning
4 Ponder

Lands
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

This change gives the deck a bit more reach, and it gives the goyf more food to chew on. Losing fire//ice would hurt because it really can be a useful card but i think the extra sorceries are more beneficial in the long run.

[Ironstickman]

But fire/ice is such a great tool!!!
it really gives the deck 'reach' by removing potential blockers or working on the mana denial strategy.
Anyway, perhaps you may want to do:
-1 spell snare
-1 fire/ice
+2 chain lightning.
I think this could suffice, 8 bolts can be too much. Do you really feel your goyf is small?, I mean, relying on the opponent to fill his graveyard is not that bad considering our countermagic.

Lately, I've been having problems with big creatures in Aggro-loam (didn't think it was that popular) so this is the sideboard I'm currently playing:

3 Hydroblast
3 Krosan grip
2 Tygron predator
2 Pyroclasm
3 Mind harness
2 Pyroblast

The harness works well against aggro-loam, survival,DS, RGbeats, the Rock and it can come in against mirror or other threshold variants. What do you think?

I am maindecking 2 pithing needles au lieu de bouncers as a cheap answer to survival, EE,pErnicious, etc.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Chain Lightning proposal

Neither build that Top8ed was a Canadian Thresh list. Fire/Ice is consistently one of the best cards in that deck every time I play it and the tradeoff for the point or two of damage simply is not worth it.

[arsenalpow]

I think 8 bolts + 2 bounce gives this deck tremendous reach. The bounce is there for those big creatures to allow you to punch through with that list bit of damage to finish off an opponent.

You only need to hit with a goyf about 3 times (4/5 goyf) and point 2 bolts at their head to drop them. Opponents usually do at least 2 dmg to themselves on fetchlands alone. Extra bolts remove attackers to make sure the goyfs or mongeese connect and the rest of the game you sit back and disrupt with permission and stifles.

I'll be testing this when i get home, I'll post later with some results.

[Aleksandr]

Are 18 lands enough? Even more, four of them do not give us blue mana.. and are meant to be sacrificed asap.
I know that we have extremely low curve. But with 14 sources only, the deck will mulligan hard, imho.
Nonetheless, that idea is interesting and I gonna try it in the future..

[arsenalpow]

The deck never needs more than 3 mana to function, it can run at 1-2 with no real issues, the curve is quite low. The rivers are only used to finish up a game, they can remove those last couple blockers, bounce a humility or ghostly prison, or bounce a chalice and 3sphere to make sure the last couple bolts get in there.

[goobafish]

http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?e...onvention+38th

2 UGr lists made top 8 and both decks had a little bit of tech that I think might be useful to the tempo thresh builds. Chain Lightning

A c/b threshold list usually contains 8 sorceries (4 ponder / 4 thoughtseize) Which is 4 more sorceries that are contained in a typical tempo thresh list. One thing about tempo thresh (at least for me) is that the goyf is usually pretty small because we only put lands and instants in the yard. Sometimes we can pick off a creature with a bolt or fire//ice which gives the goyf some more food, but usually we have to rely on the opponent to drop other card types in the yard.

Regarding the sorceries comment, I will refer you to a little part of my primer to answer that question.

Q: Are 4 sorceries enough to make your Tarmogoyf big?

A: Originally I didn’t play any sorceries with Tarmogoyf. The basis of this is that almost every legacy deck runs sorceries, and as such, they will have a sorcery of their own in their graveyard. I played Opt before Lorwyn, but Ponder is too good not to play. Cantrips are mana intensive, because instead of already having a business spell or counter in your hand, you need to invest mana trying to find them. I prefer to play more relevant cards than cantrips. I never have a problem getting Threshold because the counters this deck plays are all free or 1cc, meaning that you counter early-game spells and fill your graveyard quickly with a couple of cantrips, wastes, stifles, fetches and counters.

Also remember that your sorceries also feed their Goyfs.


As for Chain Lightning. I would not include this on the sole basis that it is a sorcery. This deck runs on so few lands that you need to keep all your mana available thought their turn to play counters, stifles and burn. Even with that being said, Ice is extremely useful as it can end the game. It provides mana denial, or taps down that huge finisher that is preventing you from swinging with Geese and Goyfs. The card has so many purposes, that I can't imagine cutting it for a simple burn spell.

Lately, I've been having problems with big creatures in Aggro-loam (didn't think it was that popular) so this is the sideboard I'm currently playing:

3 Mind harness

The harness works well against aggro-loam, survival,DS, RGbeats, the Rock and it can come in against mirror or other threshold variants. What do you think?

Thanks for the suggestion. I will test this, I think it has potential against Loam and possibly Dragon Stompy. I have not tested this card yet.

[MULocke]

Chain Lightning just doesn't fit this deck. As has been said before, Fire/Ice is amazingly versatile, and it can often provide CA with a 2 for 1 as well.

On another note, I've been playing the swans list at my local shop with a bit of success. There aren't too many good thresh matchups around (lots of stax variants and stiflenoughts running around), but swans and counterbalance help that somewhat. I most recently went 2-1, losing in a tough 3 to Dragon Stompy. I was wondering how/what you guys SB, as I never made it to be able to cast trygon predator, and even krosan grip was lackluster. I'm fairly sure I could've won, but I was never able to fetch the correct basic land before blood moon came down in games 2 and 3. Any help?

[arsenalpow]

Regarding the sorceries comment, I will refer you to a little part of my primer to answer that question.

<Primer Stuff>

As for Chain Lightning. I would not include this on the sole basis that it is a sorcery. This deck runs on so few lands that you need to keep all your mana available thought their turn to play counters, stifles and burn. Even with that being said, Ice is extremely useful as it can end the game. It provides mana denial, or taps down that huge finisher that is preventing you from swinging with Geese and Goyfs. The card has so many purposes, that I can't imagine cutting it for a simple burn spell.

I read the primer thoroughly and definitely took your analysis into consideration. Like i said in my original post, this is only an idea but i think it warrants testing. Fire//Ice is quite useful, we are in complete agreeance on that point, but every time i use it (fire//ice), i only point it at their dome. In my experience i think the change wouldn't make too much of a difference. Testing will tell.

I'm supposed to have a long test session this weekend with my team, my teammate (a hardcore goblins supporter) and I are going to run our decks through the gauntlet, against ichorid, loam, landstill varients, thresh varients, dreadstill, goblins, enchantress, stax, and some other combo decks.

I'll let you know how the change works out, if it sucks I can always go back to fire//ice

[arsenalpow]

So more than likely I'm going to play a version of threshold for GenCon, but its between thrash and the 4-color counterbalance top versions.

Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fire / Ice (Looking at Chain Lightning here possibly, still testing)
4 Force Of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Rushing River (Possibly Wipe Away or Engineered Explosives here)
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

Sorceries
4 Ponder

Lands
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

My board is nearly set but I'm not sure what else i want to add, i feel the blasts and crypts are a lock, as well as at least 2 grips.

Ancient Grudge
Engineered Explosives (if they don't make it to the main)
Pithing Needle
Pyroclasm
Krosan Grip (+1 more)

[Mental]

Depending on the meta, you could also play CB + Top, which is good against a lot of jank/combo/the Thrash mirror. It's probably not worth boarding in against thresh, where you only have room to bring in KGrip.

In general, if I were you, I would play:

+1 KGrip

It's just sooo useful, against almost every deck.

+2 Blue Elemental Blast

You want to beat Dragon Stompy. You really do.

+2 Pyroclasm

With BEB and Clasm, you should steamroll goblins even if it's built to beat Thresh. You may not even need the clasms, and if you don't, I'd play Needle in there place so that you have more against Landstill.

[Whit3 Ghost]

You beat Dragon Stompy anyway. That deck has serious issues with Force of Will and Tarmogoyf, not to mention manabase inconsistency. I'd put the matchup at a solid 60/40 in your favor. If you want to beat that deck, just replace KGrip with Trygon Predator. My current sideboard looks like this:
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trygon Predator
3 Pithing Needle
4 Red Blast
2 Pyroclasm

And under no circumstance do you cut Fire/Ice.

[MULocke]

You beat Dragon Stompy anyway. That deck has serious issues with Force of Will and Tarmogoyf, not to mention manabase inconsistency. I'd put the matchup at a solid 60/40 in your favor. If you want to beat that deck, just replace KGrip with Trygon Predator. My current sideboard looks like this:
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trygon Predator
3 Pithing Needle
4 Red Blast
2 Pyroclasm

And under no circumstance do you cut Fire/Ice.

The problem is that yu have force only. They have 3Sphere, Chalice, Blood Moon, etc and only need to resolve 1 or 2. As for trygon predator, he's great but he must resolve before blood moon comes online and the artifacts start slowing down you cantripping (for lands, forces, etc). Its not unwinnable, but also not a good one imo.

[arsenalpow]

My original configuration looked like this

4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge

I'm pretty high on ancient grudge, i love pyroclasm, and I always try to find room for engineered explosives...sooo difficult....

[Whit3 Ghost]

The problem is that yu have force only. They have 3Sphere, Chalice, Blood Moon, etc and only need to resolve 1 or 2. As for trygon predator, he's great but he must resolve before blood moon comes online and the artifacts start slowing down you cantripping (for lands, forces, etc). Its not unwinnable, but also not a good one imo.

You need one card in this matchup. Tarmogoyf. Dragon Stompy cannot handle a resolved Goyf without overcommiting to a rediculous degree. A lot of games come down to if you can handle the first disruption spell they play. If you can, you usually end up winning as your creatures are better than theirs.

[Whit3 Ghost]

My original configuration looked like this

4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge

I'm pretty high on ancient grudge, i love pyroclasm, and I always try to find room for engineered explosives...sooo difficult....

Why do you want to run Grudge? What does your meta look like?

[Nihil Credo]

Dragon Stompy cannot handle a resolved Goyf without overcommiting to a rediculous degree.

If by "overcommitting" you mean "drop a Rakdos Pit-Dragon" or "drop an Arc-Slogger" (sometimes Gathan Raiders, Taurean Mauler, and Umezawa's Jitte can also step up to the challenge), then sure.

[arsenalpow]

Its GenCon, its going to be decks to beat, mixed in with some other proven archetypes that have fallen by the wayside, with a touch of some homebrew stuff that isn't great, but good.

This decks poor matchups are

Some versions of landstill (fluctuates between 40-60% depending on the version)
Ichorid - They can definitely crush us game 1
Aggro Loam - They can generate more card advantage than we can control, we have to win quickly or stop their development
W Stax - chalice @ 1 = ow
Anything that can sustain an active counterbalance and top - Thresh mirror, some of the new control decks..

So the deck wants to stop opposing counterbalances/top, it needs an answer for ichorid, it needs to be able to slow down the development of longer game decks like landstill or aggro loam, and it needs to be able to get out of the lock pieces that stax likes to drop on us.

4 Tormod's Crypt - Can shore up the ichorid matchup and slow down aggro loam's draw mechanism (i said slow, not stop)
4 red blasts - Helps the mirror and helps curb the card advantage generated by longer game blue control decks (landstill)
3 Krosan Grip - Can kill counterbalance, survival, scary lockpieces from stax

The last 4 slots are between
ancient grudge
engineered explosives
pyroclasm
pithing needle

[goobafish]

The problem is that yu have force only. They have 3Sphere, Chalice, Blood Moon, etc and only need to resolve 1 or 2. As for trygon predator, he's great but he must resolve before blood moon comes online and the artifacts start slowing down you cantripping (for lands, forces, etc). Its not unwinnable, but also not a good one imo.

Keep in mind, once they try for the first one (usually with the help of a Tomb or City) it can be dazed, and the land can be wasted which buys you time to find more counters. A few cards you are more than happy to let resolve, like all the equipments, and the creatures. The real issue cards are Blood Moon and Chalice, Chalice can be Spell Snared, so you save your forces and dazes for the Moon. Personally, I have never had too much trouble with the matchup.

@arsenal
Run Pyroclasms. They are great against Goblins, Ichorid and TES. They are really important to have in your board in case you run into a Weenie aggro deck.