[Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)

[Jak]

I've rarely missed the extra Grove. It's a bit unwieldy to cast in multiples, and 3 seems to allow me to see it enough without clogging on 2 or 3 when I don't need them.

The Aura is kinda iffy. It could be a Seal. The main advantages are against Landstill and Groving for it vs decks packing Deed.

Although with Justice in the MD right now that may be unnecessary.

Another advantage though, is that it dodges Counterbalance a lot better than Seal of Whichever.

I like Seal because Chalice at 3 already screws me over enough. Yeah, it can be cast pre-emptively but shit happens. Especially when Moon holds you off of 2 W. Personally I run 2 Seals and 1 Aura. 1 O Ring also.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

That seems a little overboard to me. There are a lot of match-ups where the Disenchant effect is suboptimal; it seems extraneous to pack 3 MD Disenchant effects, especially if you're all ready running O. Ring.

[Nihil Credo]

I heard GreenOne won Nationals with Enchantress. Just noticing y'all until he comes back from the post-tournament debauchery to tell us all about it.

[Brehn]

I heard GreenOne won Nationals with Enchantress. Just noticing y'all until he comes back from the post-tournament debauchery to tell us all about it.

Did he play Enchantress or Parfait With A Draw Engine?

[GreenOne]

I was playing Enchantress. I posted a report here:
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10573

Nihil, were you there?

[Nihil Credo]

Nope, I just saw the thread on tipo1.it

[Jak]

Did he play Enchantress or Parfait With A Draw Engine?

Your comments like this are becoming annoying.

Congrats Green! How did you like 2 Confinements?

[GreenOne]

2 Confinaments were enough all day. I suppose they would become handy in the finals against burn, or against storm combo (match loss anyway) if I encountered them, but in the end 2 confinament seemed really enough.

Topdecking Oblivion Ring / Moat / almost any other thing when the opponent discarded your Enchantress (happened 4 times during the day) is so much better. Confinament is also weak against control.

The power of confinament greatly varies with the number of enchantress effects you got:
0 Enchantress: It sucks.
1 Enchantress: It's so-so, maybe I can't mantain it.
2+ Enchantresses: I want it. By that time and with at least 2 enchantress effects up the probability of finding one of your 2 confinaments (or some sterling groves) is quite high.

[Brehn]

Congratulations from my side too, GreenOne.

Your comments like this are becoming annoying.

I'm not the one who started with the annoying comments:

Enchantress doesn't work as a control deck; it's not parfait with a draw engine. The deck needs to be fast and aggressive.

Some parts of the report:

Moat stops his factories and Meddling Mage, while I have time to tutor for Sacred mesa and make a couple of tokens a turn. At some point he has to EE the tokens, but i recover quite fast and kill him.

Who said that this deck can't win without an Enchantress effect? Who said that Moat isn't worth it? This is exactly why Moat is a must-counter for UWx Landstill.

G3: He goes Turn 1 Ritual into Thoughtseize+Hymn, Turn 2 Goyf, Turn 3 Hippy, turn 4 Goyf. Meanwhile i go Turn 1 Land+Aura, turn 2 sterling grove, turn 3 O. Ring on Tarmo, Turn 4 Runed Halo on Hippy, Turn 5 Moat.

Once again, answers win. Try racing this hand with your "fast and aggressive" deck that doesn't contain answers. Note that all your Enchantress effects have probably been discarded on turn 1.

My opinion remains the same: Playing a non-control version of Enchantress is just like playing Cephalid Breakfast, throwing Force of Wills and any other protection spells out of it. A deck with a multi-card combo that is easily disrupted, and no way to back it up.

GreenOne: there are some features in your list which I don't understand very well:
> mainboard Seal of Primordium. I play one in the sideboard, just to combat Chalice of the Void @ 3. Given that you're also playing two Oblivion Rings, was it useful?
> Hoofprints of the Stag: has always been underwhelming for me, because most of the time it's really just a 2cc drawspell and you won't tutor for it. I've seen that you've won one game with it (vs Stax). Was it crucial to have there? Did it show up in other games?
> Dovescape: I've also played this before, as a suboptimal out to combo and as an additional threat against Landstill. But I've ended up cutting it because I've never ever cast it. In the report I can't see you casting it either, would you play it again?

[GreenOne]

Who said that this deck can't win without an Enchantress effect? Who said that Moat isn't worth it? This is exactly why Moat is a must-counter for UWx Landstill.

[...]

Once again, answers win. Try racing this hand with your "fast and aggressive" deck that doesn't contain answers. Note that all your Enchantress effects have probably been discarded on turn 1.

I'm completely with you. Note that the meddling mage was also chanting Enchantress Presence.

GreenOne: there are some features in your list which I don't understand very well:
> mainboard Seal of Primordium. I play one in the sideboard, just to combat Chalice of the Void @ 3. Given that you're also playing two Oblivion Rings, was it useful?

I was playing it over a 2nd Moat I could not find at less than 35€ (Italian Legends). In the games however, it was useful and easier on the manabase than Aura of Silence. Now I'd cut the Runed Halo for the 2nd Moat: we'd lose the combo matchup anyway.
Oh, and Oblivion Ring was busted all day.

> Hoofprints of the Stag: has always been underwhelming for me, because most of the time it's really just a 2cc drawspell and you won't tutor for it. I've seen that you've won one game with it (vs Stax). Was it crucial to have there? Did it show up in other games?

It wasn't great all day because the Tombstalkers, the Exhalted Angels (and the goyfs) were bigger everytime. It's not bad, but not impressive. It's a slot to work on.

> Dovescape: I've also played this before, as a suboptimal out to combo and as an additional threat against Landstill. But I've ended up cutting it because I've never ever cast it. In the report I can't see you casting it either, would you play it again?

Yeah. It's busted any time you want to seal the deal. I could win the game at 2 life with it against EE@3+Cursed scroll, countering the EE. I'd play it everyday, and unfortunately didn't ever show up in games.


EDIT. I did not ever wanted City of Solitude, even against landstill. I'll free this SB slot.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I'm not the one who started with the annoying comments:

Enchantress doesn't work as a control deck; it's not parfait with a draw engine. The deck needs to be fast and aggressive.

I don't think that antagonizing posts are on an equal annoyance level with strategic conclusions you disagree with.

Who said that this deck can't win without an Enchantress effect? Who said that Moat isn't worth it? This is exactly why Moat is a must-counter for UWx Landstill.

This is a post-board game, note. I'm actually tinkering with a Moat in the SB.

G1 however, almost no list is running Meddling Mage MD. Without a MM on Presence, Groving for Presence is the correct call. In that situation, the list with the lower curve has the edge.

Once again, answers win. Try racing this hand with your "fast and aggressive" deck that doesn't contain answers. Note that all your Enchantress effects have probably been discarded on turn 1.

Note that his Moat = my 3rd Replenish; I still would have won that game.

My opinion remains the same:

No kidding.

Playing a non-control version of Enchantress is just like playing Cephalid Breakfast, throwing Force of Wills and any other protection spells out of it. A deck with a multi-card combo that is easily disrupted, and no way to back it up.

I think you're being ridiculous.

If Elephant Grass, Solitary Confinement, Sterling Grove, Seal/Aura, Ground Seal, Karmic Justice and possibly Runed Halo aren't enough control for you, you need to tighten your play.

He didn't face any match-ups that my list was worse against than his. The fact that he was able to win round 3 was do to fairly fortunate draws. If the Eva Green player had had a Sinkhole to punish him for his high curve, he would have lost that match.



Anyway, congratulations on the win. I think your curve is still suboptimal, but my chief complaint would be the O. Rings, not the Moat. I can understand that Moat helps in certain match-ups, but O. Ring is just not efficient. Pariah would even be better. What those really should be is extra Ground Seals.

Here's the problem; if we take the non-mana neutral cards(that is, everything except lands and acceleration effects), add up the CCs and divide by their number, your deck's "cards that do something" curve is;

2.58 vs 2.17 for my list. That's a little under a 20% increase in the curve. You're also using an additional 2 spots for such effects. Doing so is a gamble that the cards you have will actually impact your opponents gameplan enough to make up for the fact that the engine is running more slowly. In any unpredictable meta-game, that's a bad gamble.

[GreenOne]

He didn't face any match-ups that my list was worse against than his. The fact that he was able to win round 3 was do to fairly fortunate draws. If the Eva Green player had had a Sinkhole to punish him for his high curve, he would have lost that match.

Sure, I had some amount of luck in this game, but nonetheless he had too. If Eva Green could always start this way:
Turn1: Ritual, Thoughtseize, Hymn
Turn2: Goyf
Turn3: Specter
Turn4: Goyf
then it would be definetly be the best deck in the format. It did but still lost. It's also sure that if i drew those Ground Seals instead of O.Rings/Runed Halo/whatever i would have just lost some times cycling a card and then discarded it to Specter. Ground Seal does nothing against Eva Green.

EDIT: Do you also run 19 lands, don't you? This would have screwed you more than me if he had a Sinkhole.

Anyway, congratulations on the win. I think your curve is still suboptimal, but my chief complaint would be the O. Rings, not the Moat. I can understand that Moat helps in certain match-ups, but O. Ring is just not efficient. Pariah would even be better. What those really should be is extra Ground Seals.

Here's the problem; if we take the non-mana neutral cards(that is, everything except lands and acceleration effects), add up the CCs and divide by their number, your deck's "cards that do something" curve is;

2.58 vs 2.17 for my list. That's a little under a 20% increase in the curve. You're also using an additional 2 spots for such effects. Doing so is a gamble that the cards you have will actually impact your opponents gameplan enough to make up for the fact that the engine is running more slowly. In any unpredictable meta-game, that's a bad gamble.

Thanks. There are a lot of matches where Ground Seal does nothing. In fact, it was the most sided-out card in the tournament. In ny matchup where I got Ground Seal with no enchantress effect out I'm just cycling a card, effectively adding 1G to the cost of the next spell I draw. Same thing in matchups where Ground Seal matters, but I already got 1.
Don't get me wrong. I love some number of Ground Seals in the deck, but not 4x cause its effect doesn't stack.

Yeah, I'm doing a gamble in playing Oblivion Ring, but I find it a good deal. Taking 4 life less from a Goyf, not having my spells countered by CB, removing flyers when I have a Moat, removing Deed or EE when the opponent is tapped out, negating Confidant draws, removing pesky artifacts etc. Is worth the +1 card and -1 mana Ground Seal has to offer. I think it slows down your opponent much more than it does for your engine. And it's definetly better (like 10 times better) without an engine out.

I did not ever think of Pariah, but O. Ring is a lot more versatile.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Only on the surface. The number of Enchantments/artifacts that both A) matter, and B) can be hit by O. Ring isn't that high.

Pariah, by comparison, effectively neutralizes two Tarmogoyfs the first turn, and then, if it is to be dealt with, eliminates one of them for good. Same for a Goyf and any other creature.

It may seem as though Sinkhole hurts me more with less land, but with ESG and a lower curve that's actually not the case.

Ground Seal may not be as good in your build, but as you tighten the curve, and especially if you add ESG, I think you'll find it becomes more and more valuable.

And that Eva Green hand isn't actually ideal, especially not vs. Enchantress. Any deck with sweepers can handle hordes; the ideal draw is a good mix of disruption and pressure. He started with disruption, but that was was all he played against you. If that turn 2 Goyf, or that turn 3 Hyppie had been a Sinkhole or Wasteland instead, you'd have had a much rougher time.

[VsTheWorld]

I've been playing a single O Ring in my list (based on Spatula's) alongside 4 Ground Seals and I've never been unhappy to draw the Ring. 3 mana removal in a deck that produces piles of mana has never been a problem for me, and the 3 cost puts it out of normal CB and Chalice range. My main reason for playing it is to combat Deed though. In my testing against 4C Landstill, my opponent is typically forced to tap out or almost tap out for an early Deed. O Ring punishes them for that, and also lets you do techy stuff like remove one of your own Presences knowing Deed is coming next turn and being left with an Enchantress effect post-Deed. Overall it has been quite solid.

[Brehn]

In an unknown meta I prefer to gamble that my answers affect the board. The alternative is your list: Gamble that the engine sticks, otherwise lose.

Going through your calculation, my list currently has a curve of 2.48 with the same number of slots like GreenOne's. Compare my list to your list:

Me/You
4/4 Argothian Enchantress
4/4 Enchantress's Presence
4/3 Sterling Grove
2/3 Elvish Spirit Guide
4/4 Utopia Sprawl
3/1 Wild Growth
0/2 Exploration
3/4 Ground Seal (sometimes I also play 4)
20/19 Lands

Do you really think that your list has a much higher probability of resolving an Enchantress effect and keeping it on the table at least one turn? If you do, on what basis?

If not, ... I don't think you've answered this question yet:

One question you should always ask yourself when designing a list is: You keep a hand with one Enchantress effect. Your opponent forces the Enchantress and plays a 4/5 Goyf. Can you still win this game? What if Goyf is 5/6?

I don't see how you do this with your list. I just have no clue at all. That's why I keep arguing against it. Could you give me some examples from tournament play / testing?

[Jak]

One question you should always ask yourself when designing a list is: You keep a hand with one Enchantress effect. Your opponent forces the Enchantress and plays a 4/5 Goyf. Can you still win this game? What if Goyf is 5/6?

Are you serious? Your opponent would then have 3-4 cards in hand. You would have at least 6. Play an Elephant Grass or Grove. You have plently of time to tutor for an Enchantress or O Ring. If you play Elephant Grass, they are really messed up. Do they apply pressure or set up CB. It gives you so much time and that allows you to win the game.

[Brehn]

Are you serious?

Are you serious?

Your opponent would then have 3-4 cards in hand. You would have at least 6.

Land Aura Land Enchantress = 4 cards. 2 draws = 7+2-4 = 5 cards in hand. No, "at least 6" is not always correct.

Play an Elephant Grass or Grove.

Say you don't have Grove.

You have plently of time to tutor for an Enchantress or O Ring.

1) You don't always draw Grove. Spatula's list has 4 Argothian, 4 Presence, 3 Grove. If one got countered and he has 50 cards left in his deck, there's only a 50% chance that one of the remaining Argothians, Presences or Groves is within the top 3 cards of his library. Also: What do you tutor for if Grove is the third card? Which leads me to:
2) We're talking about SpatulaOfTheAges' list. He decides not to play Oblivion Ring.

If you play Elephant Grass, they are really messed up.

Are you assuming they have less than 2 lands? Otherwise they aren't messed up but able to swing for 4 or 5 every turn.

Do they apply pressure or set up CB. It gives you so much time and that allows you to win the game.

In theory yes. But you still need some kind of business or answer to win.

*Specifying the example so there won't be any misunderstandings in future*:

• You mull to 6
• Opponent plays Land go.
• You draw a card and play Fetch, Utopia Sprawl - EOT Brainstorm.
• Opponent plays Fetch, Ponder, go.
• You draw a card and play Fetch, Argothian Enchantress. Opponent: Force of Will, pitching a blue card.
• Opponent plays Land, Tarmogoyf (4/5), go.

Your hand: 4 blanks which do not include Argothian Enchantress, Enchantress's Presence or Sterling Grove. You're at 18. Say your opponent is playing Tempo Thresh, his hand is: Land, Land, Bolt. His next draws: Land, Bolt, Land, Land, Land. What are your chances?

EDIT: Changed Presence to Argothian. As a rough sketch I've calculated a chance of 34% of you losing. I'll check again now if this is correct.

[Jak]

Are you serious?



Land Aura Land Enchantress = 4 cards. 2 draws = 7+2-4 = 5 cards in hand. No, "at least 6" is not always correct.



Say you don't have Grove.



1) You don't always draw Grove. Spatula's list has 4 Argothian, 4 Presence, 3 Grove. If one got countered and he has 50 cards left in his deck, there's only a 50% chance that one of the remaining Argothians, Presences or Groves is within the top 3 cards of his library. Also: What do you tutor for if Grove is the third card? Which leads me to:
2) We're talking about SpatulaOfTheAges' list. He decides not to play Oblivion Ring.



Are you assuming they have less than 2 lands? Otherwise they aren't messed up but able to swing for 4 or 5 every turn.



In theory yes. But you still need some kind of business or answer to win.

*Specifying the example so there won't be any misunderstandings in future*:

• You mull to 6
• Opponent plays Land go.
• You draw a card and play Fetch, Utopia Sprawl - EOT Brainstorm.
• Opponent plays Fetch, Ponder, go.
• You draw a card and play Fetch, Enchantres's Presence (daze-proof thanks to an ESG in hand). Opponent: Force of Will, pitching a blue card.
• Opponent plays Land, Tarmogoyf (4/5), go.

Your hand: Elvish Spirit Guide, 3 blanks which do not include Argothian Enchantress, Enchantress's Presence or Sterling Grove. You're at 18. Say your opponent is playing Tempo Thresh, his hand is: Land, Land, Bolt. His next draws: Land, Bolt, Land, Land, Land. What are your chances?

Argothian costs 2. Land, Land, Argothian. So you have 6. I shouldn't have said "at least".

"Say you don't have Grove"... Hmmm, then what are your outs? Are you going to draw that one of Moat or your 1 Oblivion Ring? You can't make a question and then discount my answer with "say you don't draw Grove".

Thresh usually won't have 3 lands on the 3rd turn. They only run 17-18 and Daze sets them back also. Elephant Grass will either Chant them (with no kicker) or will hold off their attack. If you can buy time then you will draw into your Enchantresses, Groves, answers, etc. You then win.

[Brehn]

"Say you don't have Grove"... Hmmm, then what are your outs? Are you going to draw that one of Moat or your 1 Oblivion Ring? You can't make a question and then discount my answer with "say you don't draw Grove".

See, I've expressed myself the wrong way. When talking about "Hands with one Enchantress effect" I'm actually counting Sterling Grove as an Enchantress effect. The example just requires keeping a six card hand, consisting of 2 Fetchlands, Utopia Sprawl, Argothian Enchantress and two blanks and not topdecking another Enchantress effect in 2 draws - not that unusual.

Elephant Grass will either Chant them (with no kicker) or will hold off their attack.

Usually (my experience), it Chants them without kicker. Which does nothing against a swinging Goyf.

If you can buy time then you will draw into your Enchantresses, Groves, answers, etc. You then win.

Ya, well, see?

Answers. Answers. I'm talking about a list without answers here! The only "answers" Spatula plays are: Argothian Enchantress, Enchantress's Presence, Sterling Grove.

[Jak]

See, I've expressed myself the wrong way. When talking about "Hands with one Enchantress effect" I'm actually counting Sterling Grove as an Enchantress effect. The example just requires keeping a six card hand, consisting of 2 Fetchlands, Utopia Sprawl, Argothian Enchantress and two blanks and not topdecking another Enchantress effect in 2 draws - not that unusual.

Usually (my experience), it Chants them without kicker.

Ya, well, see?

Answers. Answers. I'm talking about a list without answers here! The only "answers" Spatula plays are: Argothian Enchantress, Enchantress's Presence, Sterling Grove, Solitary Confinement.

I said, "no kicker"...

Elephant Grass is an answer. Spat also has 2 slots open which could be Oblivion Ring, Grove, Confinement, etc. Meta dependent.

You run 2 more answers than Spat (the same as me) that you can really only get with Grove. How are the decks different in that situation?