[Deck] Armageddon Stax

[kidsmokin]

Except that Oblivion Ring doesn't destroy anything, it just removes it from the game and then sits waiting to be Gripped or otherwise destroyed. Vindicate as an activated ability of an enchantment (or Planeswalker ability) would be very strong.

-FB...

Oblivion Ring + Mangara hax!!!

If Vindicate came up on the B/W Planeswalker, that would be insane. I suppose in an aggro matchup the W/R would be better, so you could theoretically run Wbr or Wrb Stax, with one of the Planeswalkers in the deck to start, but then you could swap out one Planeswalker for the other if the matchup suits it better (you'd have to board a dual land, which sucks, but it could be worthwhile.

Regardless, Ajani is very good, his first and second abilities are awesome, the first is a Port (good vs. control mostly?) and the second is Lightning Helix, which is good vs. aggro.

[f|i[p]]

I suppose in an aggro matchup the W/R would be better, so you could theoretically run Wbr or Wrb Stax, with one of the Planeswalkers in the deck to start, but then you could swap out one Planeswalker for the other if the matchup suits it better (you'd have to board a dual land, which sucks, but it could be worthwhile.

Nope this wouldn't work, switching planes walkers and lands from side to main is plain crazy..

@fred bear

On a side note - what's with making a mythic rare the pre-release card?!?!? Doesn't that completely devalue it as a collectible when compared to the other mythic rares?

Ahhh..I guess they just want more money.. I don't even know why they added that mythic rare anyway.. its pointless, their just using it to earn more....

@ red for sideboard, blood moon is a good sideboard option for us, boil is also good its an added one sided armageddon against blue based decks.

[dragzz]

Splashing red seems nice, it gives us ways to deal with problematic criters and what not. But I'm not convinced unless it would significantly improve difficult MUs.

Splashing blue was dropped even it would have given us Propaganda, Pendrell Mist and possibly some form of draw (TFK comes to mind). What makes the new Ajani worth splashing? Granted of course that we would be allowed run red utility cards, i.e. pyroclasm, magus and the like?

[Skeggi]

Splashing blue was dropped even it would have given us Propaganda, Pendrell Mist and possibly some form of draw (TFK comes to mind). What makes the new Ajani worth splashing? Granted of course that we would be allowed run red utility cards, i.e. pyroclasm, magus and the like?

We found enough Propaganda effects in Ghostly Prison and Windborn Muse, we found enough Tabernacle effects in the Magus and the land. Ajani fills 2 important utility slots in 1 card, with the possibility of a game-winning ability. But just as the blue splash was a fun thought and needed testing, now this is testworthy at least.

[Fred Bear]

Skeggi is exactly right. Blue Splash Stax was tested and just wasn't as good as White by itself - the blue splash always seemed to 'dilute' the deck instead of strengthening it in my opinion. That's not to say that Blue Stax by itself couldn't be good - I just always come back to Armageddon.

The appeal of the new Ajani (for me) is that it gives you abilities for a potential Maze of Ith/Port -type of an effect, a potential Lightning Helix, and a potential 1-sided Armageddon all in the form of a difficult to remove (outside of the attack step) permanent. Right now, though, it's all potential. Only testing will prove or disprove its value.

-FB...

[The Wes]

The only problem I really have is what else does red give us besides the plains walker. Or rather what does red give us that helps winning more than white does. The deck has never really had a problem with swarms so pyroclasm isn't the most helpful, and we'd have to rework the deck a lot to fit magus/moon in. Burning wish makes me smile a little, but I'm not sure what I'd really want to wish for besides armageddon, maybe artifact/enchant removal. I demand a r/w vindicate!

[Skeggi]

I'm not sure if you want any other of the red utility: we're talking about a splash here. The only thing that might be useful is stuff like Boil, Boiling Seas, Impending Disaster(?), Ruination(?) in the SB (perhaps Flashfires, Anarchy, but somehow it's not as appealing).

My point being: there are not that many things we have to replace with red stuff in our current shell. Testing on just splashing Ajani should suffice for now.

[Citrus-God]

Well... there's also the option of running Wildfire... Decree of Annihilation... and other things.

[Skeggi]

Double red. Bad splash.

[The Wes]

Don't get me wrong, I like the new plainswalker, but I was just wondering if splashing to get it was worth the extra instability that it adds to the mana base. I'd be more up to the extra instability if it adds more than a 3 of to the deck, or at least sb options. Only time and testing with tell, but I can't wait to get on that testing, looks very fun.

[f|i[p]]

Actually, a lot of splashes were tested, from 2 color to 3 color builds. Nothing worked as good as mono white stax, as far as I am concerned.However there are other mono stax builds out there, black stax, blue, wildfire stax,and even green was built. Sometimes its either the builds were just shrugged off because people just wanted to improve what was already working, or they didn't even bother to bring it to a tournament and prove that a splash or a different color was really worth it.

As I see it, the new ajani would really help. I tried putting 2 proxies in the deck, and they do help in match ups.(Might even try 3) Goblins will try to kill it as fast as possible. you can helix the siege gang, sharpshooters, or simply keep lackeys, and piledrivers (goyfs even) tapped. Delaying is the key here. As Fred bear said, the first 2 abilities helps us in many ways already.( I don't think planes walkers are protected by ghostly prisons though)

Although I'm not entirely convinced yet that this would indeed help us in out in most of our bad matchups , it does help with the 4color landstill, by giving is blood moon and boil on the sideboard. I'm not sure how it will help ups with the other match ups. Although it may put a little more risk on our mana base, it always does help to test anything that is worth your time, after all, we are trying to improve the deck.

[Skeggi]

I don't think planes walkers are protected by ghostly prisons though.

What do you mean by this? Do you mean Ghostly Prison doesn't have enough effect and the planeswalker will die to the one rogue creature that gets through?

it does help with the 4color landstill, by giving is blood moon and boil on the sideboard.

I think I might prefer Ruination over Blood Moon...however - I think I'll just stick with Armageddons and Ravages of War and wipe all their lands - seems stronger.

[Nihil Credo]

What do you mean by this? Do you mean Ghostly Prison doesn't have enough effect and the planeswalker will die to the one rogue creature that gets through?

He means that Ghostly Prison says "creatures can't attack you unless..."; the "you" means they're free to attack Ajani without paying the two mana. Which is a good observation and an unfortunately relevant strike against Ajani.

Anyway, other interesting stuff that Red offers:

- Boom / Bust
- Burning Wish
- Custody Battle!
- Dwarven (Blast)miner
- Stone Rain, Avalanche Riders
- Turf Wound!
- Blood Moon
- Ruination
- Cool interaction of the day: Shaman's Trance + Crucible of Worlds lets you steal your opponent's (dead) lands.
- Hmm, Imperial Recruiter grabs Magus of the Tabernacle, Windborn Muse, Glowrider, and Magus of the Moon. Interesting.

[The Wes]

I know lots of splashes were tried, I've taken b/w stax to several different tournaments. I was simply questioning splashing a color for a single card. I hadn't thought about moon and boil in the sb, and I'd love to help out landstill matchup. I'd then only really be affraid of survival.

Both Ruination and Blood Moon look interesting in the sb, I guess we need to get to testing.

Hmm, Armageddon, Ravages, Ruination, Boil, Cataclysm, any other good/fun sorceries that we might want to wish for? Just brainstorming there.

Yeah, I think he's refering to the wording on ghostly that only says creatures can't attack you unless 2 is payed for each. Should still be able to attack the planeswalker.

[dragzz]

Now that burning wish was mentioned, splashing red seems more appealing.

Trash for Treasure seems like a decent wish target and so is
Retribution of the Meek for huge creatures that you can't deal with, i.e. That 4/5 goyf, Angels, Dragons and what not.

[Malchar]

i'm just a novice stax player but i was pleased that other people also thought that ajani would go great in this deck. i admit that i don't know that much about the deck as-is, but i was surprised that splashes weren't more common. with the utility of flagstones and mox diamond, it seems really easy to splash a color if only for a single card. just toss in 4x of the dual, maybe some fetchlands depending on how big the splash is.

as for other red cards to add, i couldn't think of anything immediately. my personal favorite has always been seismic mage. i know that this card is pretty bogus, maybe i just want it to be good enough to work.

[f|i[p]]

@ retribution of the meek-- I would rather have wrath of god over this, wrath will be more useful overall. It isn't dead against goblins and swarm type decks.

@trash for treasure-- its interesting, how you can get a countered artifact back in play.

@ burning wish---if we run this we may get a tool box on the side, but what do we usually get? an armageddon, wrath maybe...I'm not sure it belongs here, but they would still warrant testing because of burning wish's sheer power.

@cataclysm-- I know how strong it is in angel stompy, I just dont think it belongs here at all. It just affects us to much. Although it is still good against swarm decks.

With boil, ruination, and even ajani you'll have armageddon 5-14 if we don't have ravages.

I think if its just a minor splash,2-3 plateaus can be enough.

Another card that might be worth testing , if we are going the land destruction route and splashing red would be shivan wumpus, it helps our over all strategy of delaying and locking the opponent out. It can be dropped quite fast and speeds up the deck. The con's however is drawing it late game when the opponent doesn't care about his lands. However, since this is prison, we should always make them care about each permanent they play.Hence the mulligan decisions.

[SuckerPunch]

I really don't think the new Planeswalker is as awesome as it's being made out to be. Killing a permanent is equivalent to tapping it indefinately. The helix effect takes away too many loyalty counters imo. And worst of all, they can kill it easily no matter how many Ghostly Prisons and Windborn Muse you have.

As long as people bring up Trash for Treasure, could Goblin Welder play a role in the deck. Or does Chalice and Trini make it unplayable.

I'm guessing it is the latter. But just wanted to mention the card somewhere. It really seems under used in legacy. It does the same thing as Trash for Treasure for a heck of a lot cheaper, and does it each and every turn. At worst, it gives you a cheap permanent to sac to Smokestack or a chump blocker/blocker for Lackey.

[Skeggi]

He means that Ghostly Prison says "creatures can't attack you unless..."; the "you" means they're free to attack Ajani without paying the two mana. Which is a good observation and an unfortunately relevant strike against Ajani.

Oh right, I thought all damage was done via the re-direct rule. Silly me

Anyway, I think we're getting too far ahead of ourselves: thinking of all kinds of wild splashes with red. Don't get me wrong, be my guest and try them all, and please tell us all about it; but I'd advice sticking to the main plan mostly, and try small splashes first before making it basically a two color deck with hald white utility and half red.

[dragzz]

Anyway, I think we're getting too far ahead of ourselves: thinking of all kinds of wild splashes with red. Don't get me wrong, be my guest and try them all, and please tell us all about it; but I'd advice sticking to the main plan mostly, and try small splashes first before making it basically a two color deck with hald white utility and half red.

Agreed. But, Ideas are always good to discuss.

The reason why I brought up Trash for Treasure and Retribution of the Meek is mainly because of Burnish Wish. I mean if were splashing Ajani for utility, then nothing would brings us a better/broader utility suit than Wish. I'm not saying that we should not play/test Ajani, maybe play Ajani and along side it play Burning Wish, may be as a 2/3 - 2/4 split. Gives the deck a lil bit more versatility with difficult matches or problematic permanents we have no way to deal with.

@Retribution of the Meek
a) We have ways to deal with swarms (ie. Ghostly Prison, Tabernacle, Muse), but single huge creature becomes problematic, specifically if they have the mana to pay for the taxes.
b) You can wish for it and cast it the same turn a total of 3WR. Wish targets should be wish-able and cast-able the same turn IMHO.
* on a note wrath of god is would always be a better board sweeper in general.

As long as people bring up Trash for Treasure, could Goblin Welder play a role in the deck. Or does Chalice and Trini make it unplayable.

On top of being unplayable under Chalice and Trini, welder would only be relevant on your next turn, and if ever you play him he's vulnerable to all creature removal in the format, and would be the target of it, which means his dead before you get anything out of him. And also, the more creatures you play in the deck the lesser your virtual card advantage becomes.

f|i[p] - When you tested Ajani, what was your mana configuration? Did you run fetches?
I'm too lazy to try red splash now, maybe after GP.