[Deck] Dragon Stompy

[DrtyDozen13]

Actually, Trinisphere is awesome against any deck running blue because it drastically slows down their gameplan to basically a spell a turn. Turn one Trinisphere means that you can now cast your best spells in the next 2 turns without the threat of getting hit with counterspells and place your opponent on the defensive even more. Also, if you're having trouble with Blue, sideboard Boil.

Actually we're not talking about any deck running blue. We're talking about control decks that in general run enough lands and higher cost spells to not care about a 3sphere especially after turn 2. When talking about a deck like Thresh that runs blue for cantrips and free counterspells 3sphere is good (this has already been established), but Thresh isn't a control deck. Please learn to read

3sphere is not good against control.

PS

NotScoopsToMoon.dec = god-awful MU

This isn't always true. Chalice can wreck decks that aren't hurt by moon. And needle out of the board often fixes match ups with the NotScoopsToMoon.dec, and jitte often helps as well.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

We're talking about control decks that in general run enough lands to not care about a 3sphere especially after turn 2.

After a turn one Trinisphere, that still two turns of no disruption. You can cast your best threats in this window with out having to bait or test for counters. After this window, they're still limited to one or two counter spells or card draw a turn. That severely eases the blow that blue disruption elements can inflict upon this deck.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Actually we're not talking about any deck running blue. We're talking about control decks that in general run enough lands to not care about a 3sphere especially after turn 2. When talking about a deck like Thresh that runs blue for cantrips and free counterspells 3sphere is good (this has already been established), but Thresh isn't a control deck. Please learn to read

I believe my reading comprehension is perfectly fine. Blue based control still has to deal with a 3sphere after turn 3 because it forces them into the choice of either leaving counter mana up or trying to deal with your threats.

Also, how are you having trouble with MUC? Don't they run about 3 relevent cards in that matchup in Shackles and maybe their wincons if the can resolve them? If for some reason you have a ton of trouble in that matchup sideboard Boil like I said earlier. It makes Trinisphere even more ridiculous.

[DrtyDozen13]

OK provided you get it in your opening hand and have the ability to play it that turn and your on the play you have a 2 turn window. On the draw a 1 turn window. Don't worry control won't miss its land drops and if it does you've won already. So after playing it you have to have a threat to play in that window and the ability to play it. The averages are against you especially the way this deck mulligans. MUC pays for its draw and does it only when it doesn't need the mana for counter after your turn ends. After they have enough mana to play through a 3shpere, provided it resolved, it really doesn't do any thing to stop them. You may get lucky in some match ups, but most of the time it will just get countered or do nothing.

Never said i had troubles with MUC (again read, this is not a conversation about the MUC match up). You are correct, Boil is good against MUC (provided you can resolve it) and actually makes 3shere good, but I don't have space in my SB for it. 3sphere by itself does nothing to control.

It's not that I have anything against 3sphere, I've tried it and had crazy results with it. I've also played it and seen how bad it is outside of turn 2 and thats why it should only be played if its a game winner not just a speed bump. A speed bump is only good with a great hand.

[Whit3 Ghost]

OK provided you get it in your opening hand and have the ability to play it that turn and your on the play you have a 2 turn window. On the draw a 1 turn window. So after playing it you have to have a threat to play in that window and the ability to play it. The averages are against you especially the way this deck mulligans. MUC pays for its draw and does it only when it doesn't need the mana for counter after your turn ends. After they have enough mana to play through a 3shpere, provided it resolved, it really doesn't do any thing to stop them. You may get lucky in some match ups, but most of the time it will just get countered or do nothing.

Never said i had troubles with MUC (again read, this is not a conversation about the MUC match up). Boil is good against MUC (provided you can resolve it) and actually makes 3shere good, but I don't have space in my SB for it. 3sphere by itself does nothing to control.

Then what are you talking about? You brought MUC into question as a deck that plays around 3sphere without much side effect when clearly, it doesn't, shutting down eot Brainstorm, Countermagic #2 and forcing them wait to drop Shackles until turn 6 or later. You bringing up the "if it resolves" clearly shows that it is of a high enough incentive for your opponent to counter. There is the aforementioned Trinisphere on turn one, which is obviously bad for them. You are also missing the fact that you can also get to 6 mana before they do and cast multiple spells on your turn which your opponent cannot answer. Trinisphere is good against control because it limits what your opponent can do and thus creates virtual card advantage which is usually exploited by either further disruption or a solid creature base both of which this deck has.

[DrtyDozen13]

Then what are you talking about? You brought MUC into question as a deck that plays around 3sphere without much side effect when clearly, it doesn't, shutting down eot Brainstorm,

MUC doesn't use cantrips

... at least not good MUC decks. Cantrips are counterproductive since they provide only filtering and no real card advantage.

Countermagic #2 and forcing them wait to drop Shackles until turn 6 or later.

Vedalken Shackles costs and hence doesn't care. If they plan on leaving mana open for counter they would have to have at least 5 open w/o 3sphere.

You bringing up the "if it resolves" clearly shows that it is of a high enough incentive for your opponent to counter.

Yeah but that goes for a threat cast at the same time (only a threat continues to be a problem where as a 3sphere eventually becomes irreverent). Early they will need to counter it. I've already said if your lucky enough to cast it at the right time it can be useful, but overall it sucks most of the time (most of the time being: drawing it after turn 2/not being able to play before turn 3).

There is the aforementioned Trinisphere on turn one, which is obviously bad for them. You are also missing the fact that you can also get to 6 mana before they do Not generally true, MUC doesn't miss it's land drops ever, DS does... and cast multiple spells on your turn which your opponent cannot answer.

If your holding back spells to play 2 in one turn they are collecting counters so they can counter multiple spells in one turn.

Trinisphere is good against control WRONG because it limits what your opponent can do and thus creates virtual card advantage which is usually exploited by either further disruption or a solid creature base both of which this deck has.

WRONG. It only provides a speed bump that if you do nothing during will do nothing to stop them from completing their game plan. Fast aggro hurts control more than big beats. Pithing needle is much better against control than 3sphere.

Really landstill (which hates your moons and needles) is the only control you really have to worry about and it really doesn't care about 3sphere. MUC is not good enough to worry this much about it. Now I'm not going to argue this anymore so don't bother responding to me, I will just ignore you. You can play a crap card in that MU if you would like, but at least I can say I tried to warn you.

[Mayk0l]

What do you guys do with a hand that contains the following (and no other playable/relevant card):

City of Traitors, Taurean Mauler, Blood Moon, Mountain, Mountain


With a turn 1 play not possible, the chance of succesfully screwing over a fetchland has become small. You'll drop the Mountain, and in your second turn follow it up with the City.
But which of the two red cards do you drop?

Mauler: Advantages include a potentially bigger Mauler, it's a threat that deals damage. The biggest disadvantage is that it's not a lockpiece
Blood Moon: Advantages include it being a lockpiece that might potentially halt your opponent now before he finds what he needs to ignore it. Biggest disadvantages are that it's not a threat and it's 'slow' in that if your opponent can ignore it (e.g. most of the cards in his hand can be played with the basic he fetched in turn 1).

Of course it depends on your opponent and his/her deck. Assume he has the typical Legacy build of 6-8 Fetch and 4-8 Duals, the rest filled with basics.



Now people have argued the power of a turn 1 Chalice@1. How would you play this hand?

Chalice of the Void, City of Traitors, Mountain, Taurean Mauler (and nothing else that's relevant)


EDIT: Ow, and this one:
Mountain, Mountain, Arc-Slogger, Blood Moon, Rakdos Pit-Dragon, Chalice of the Void, Blood Moon

[Nihil Credo]

What do you guys do with a hand that contains the following (and no other playable/relevant card):

City of Traitors, Taurean Mauler, Blood Moon, Mountain, Mountain

Mountain, go. If he plays something that hints at Daze (Ponder/Top/Mongoose), add a second turn of Mountain, go. If he opens with a nonbasic or a nonblue fetchland, open with Blood Moon. If not, open with Mauler (either because Blood Moon is unlikely to be effective, or because you hope to bait a counterspell with it).

Now people have argued the power of a turn 1 Chalice@1. How would you play this hand?

Chalice of the Void, City of Traitors, Mountain, Taurean Mauler (and nothing else that's relevant)

Turn 1 Chalice, because with such a shitty hand I have to pray I get a blowout. By the way, I'm considering this as a 4-carder, because there is no such thing as an irrelevant card in your opener. For example, a pair of Sloggers would definitely switch me to the Mountain, Go plan (which significantly increases the chances of getting to cast them).

EDIT: Ow, and this one:
Mountain, Mountain, Arc-Slogger, Blood Moon, Rakdos Pit-Dragon, Chalice of the Void, Blood Moon

Mulligan on the play. On the draw, mulligan if your opponent kept his seven, and probably if he kept his six also (certainly if he looked happy with them, e.g. immediately said "keep").

[emidln]

... at least not good MUC decks. Cantrips are counterproductive since they provide only filtering and no real card advantage.

This is only true if you only generate CA/VCA from countermagic. If you have ways of generating card advantage (such as Shackles, EE, Powder Keg, etc) then cantrips are fine. Moreover, card selection is often extremely important in an archetype that typically has a very limited ability to remove resolved threats. The filtering provided by something like Impulse/Ponder/Brainstorm can be critical to finding the answer to resolved threats that let another class of draw spell (something like Ancestral Vision, Fact or Fiction, Thirst for Knowledge, etc) do its job later in the game.

Vedalken Shackles costs and hence doesn't care. If they plan on leaving mana open for counter they would have to have at least 5 open w/o 3sphere.

Force of Will works at 3 mana. Force Spike and Spell Snare work at 4 mana. All of these are kicked to the curb by Trinisphere.

[DrtyDozen13]

What do you guys do with a hand that contains the following (and no other playable/relevant card):

City of Traitors, Taurean Mauler, Blood Moon, Mountain, Mountain

I think you said is best it really depends on what you're playing and what you see them play first.

Now people have argued the power of a turn 1 Chalice@1. How would you play this hand?

Chalice of the Void, City of Traitors, Mountain, Taurean Mauler (and nothing else that's relevant)

City>chalice, turn 2 mauler... unless you know a chalice at 1 will be worthless, then mulligan into something more playable.

EDIT: Ow, and this one:
Mountain, Mountain, Arc-Slogger, Blood Moon, Rakdos Pit-Dragon, Chalice of the Void, Blood Moon

Against a deck that hates blood moon I would keep, but if moons are less valuable I would probably mulligan.

[Joe_C]

I am playing in a tourney next weekend and I am undecided if I am playing dragon stompy or Ichorid, if the grave hate is emminent, Im rocking stompy. This is the list Ive been testing

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Arc Slogger
2 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
3 Taurean Mauler
2 Sulfur Elemental
4 Magus of The Moon
3 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of The Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Seething Song

SB:
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Trinisphere
1 Blood Moon
4 Pyroclasm
2 Powder Keg
3 Tormods Crypt
3 Pithing Needle

[Wallace]

3 Arc Slogger
2 Rakdos Pit Dragon

WTF? There is one constant in DS, 4 x Arc Slogger and 4 x Rakdos Pit Dragon. I would also choose one or the other on Taurean Mauler and Sulfur Elemental. Other than that it looks solid, here is the list I ran at the last major legacy event in my area, I went 3-2 and had to leave.

4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of The Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Arc Slogger
3 Taurean Mauler

4 Chalice of The Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Blood Moon

4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
2 Equipment (SoLS or Jitte)

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

Sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Blood Moon
1 Trinisphere
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Gaea's Blessing
2 Pyrokinesis

[Joe_C]

WTF? There is one constant in DS, 4 x Arc Slogger and 4 x Rakdos Pit Dragon.

Note in my post I stated "testing". I dont know about anyone else but alot of the time pit dragon is just a 3/3 for 4 mana. Ive been trying running more 3 drops in the place of 2 of them. Rakdos can end the game really quick if you drop him early and get hellbent, but alot of the time I still have cards in hand when I play him and he is less and less relevant. I have seen several lists that have top 8'd that dont run a full compiment of dragons/slogger.

[Zork]

Truth. The original list that Parcher top 2'd with only ran a couple dragons, and the list that I top 2'd with only ran 3 dragons.

4 Slogger is pretty important, though.

[DrtyDozen13]

Yeah outside of jitte, slogger is your only removal run 4. As far as the dragon, I like 4 because it ends games fast and I have rarely had any problems getting it hellbent. Also it's ability to fly is useful sometimes as no other creature in the deck has evasion. for reference

[Wallace]

Note in my post I stated "testing". I dont know about anyone else but alot of the time pit dragon is just a 3/3 for 4 mana. Ive been trying running more 3 drops in the place of 2 of them. Rakdos can end the game really quick if you drop him early and get hellbent, but alot of the time I still have cards in hand when I play him and he is less and less relevant. I have seen several lists that have top 8'd that dont run a full compiment of dragons/slogger.

Keep in mind he is a 3/3 with firebreathing for and while your not always hellbent, he can still get the job done. Pit Dragon gives you a place to dump any extra you have and can jump over opposing Goyf's. Arc Slogger can win a game by it's self, if I had a nickle for every time time Slogger just "wins" for me, I would have a shit load of nickles...

[Joe_C]

Ive tried a few configurations over the past few days. I think I have settled on this(barring last minute changes due to scouting)

4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of The Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Arc Slogger
4 Taurean Mauler
4 Chalice of The Void
4 Blood Moon
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

SB:
4 Trinisphere(love having 4 against storm combo, but may drop one for something else)
4 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyroclasm
1 Umezawa's JItte

[jazzykat]

So, other than looking at opening hands and it is apparent that this deck mulligans a bit, what are it's top 5 worst matchups?

[Wallace]

So, other than looking at opening hands and it is apparent that this deck mulligans a bit, what are it's top 5 worst matchups?

Enchantress and Black discard decks are a big problem, Quinn The Eskimo- Aka, The Mighty Quinn is a bitch too. Those are the only 3 deck I have ever had a real problem with. Goyf Sligh turns bad after game 1, unless they are running main deck Grip, then game one is trouble too.

[Mayk0l]

Im still going for MUC as a bad MU. But a lot of people disagree with me.