[Deck] Armageddon Stax

[The Wes]

On Retribution of the Meek:
The casting cost is rather nice like Dragzz said for us to be able to wish for it then play it the same turn. Much easier to hit 3wr than 3wwr in the case of Wrath. I'm not sure I agree on wrath usually being better either. With a lot of stax set ups creatures with power less than 4 arn't that hard to deal with. Most important < 4 power fliers are 2 power (such as hypie or predator) and those can be handled easily by windborn. Most important < 4 power ground pounders can be handled by windborn/mishra/magus. Swarms arn't really with tabernalce/prison interactions. That usually leaves 1 or 2 big dangerous creatures bashing us down (naught/goyf/tombstalker/eternal dragon/slogger/anything reanimated) that are the trouble. If we don't have an exalted on the table retribution doesn't hurt us at all while only hitting their creatures that hurt us.

On Goblin Welder:
Yeah, it gets hit by chalice, trini, and s field in the side. Another proble with it is that you'd really want it early, turn 1 or so befor you dropped more of your lock pieces and that would require r turn one. While it could happen from a mox I think it would require more of a red splash than we really are thinking about for the planeswalker.

[f|i[p]]

@ The wes , about retribution of the meek, I never said I would want to wish for wrath costing 3WWR. I just said I would rather have wrath of God than retribution of the meek.

I don't even think burning wish belongs in the deck, simply because it will force us to make the best use out of it, dedicate more to burning wish. Another note is that Sun Tower who runs red Green primarily doesn't use it at all, and they use more sorcery spells than we do.

About welder, I still think that it belongs to a more lock dedicated stax deck just like sun tower.

I do however agree that we should try a small splash before going on to the big leap and proposing a big splash. But its always nice to have new ideas flowing.

@dragzz

I only ran 3 plateau's. It seemed enough for just 2 red cards...We also have diamond anyway. But I only tested a few games... I have to focus on the upcoming tournament this sunday as well..

[The Wes]

Oh I pretty much completely agree with you. I was only suggesting a 3 of Burning wish with 2-3 of the Planeswalkers as something to try out. I was liking the idea cause it might allow me essentially run 8 or so armageddon effects. Could be complete crap, just an idea. I would not want to add more than those 5-6 red cards main, and personally think just the planeswalker alone would probably be enough of a reason to run the red. Was just throwing out other ideas, can't hurt to try em.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

I think if you run burning wish always run 4 or 0!
You give useful Sb space for some wishtargets up...
so you have to go all in with 4 wishes to mostly abuse the wishtargets
or leave it compleatly...

[The Wes]

I think it would have to be tested, and I know I won't have the chance to really test it till after the new cards come out on workstation. Either way, arn't there several decks that only run 3 wishes? Solidarity comes to mind, but I'm sure there are others. In our case with so little draw you might be right about if it was used, it needing to be as a 4 of, but only time and testing would really tell.

Hell, I think I'll force time in now to try...

[f|i[p]]

I just came from the legacy side event of GP here in Manila..
There were a total of 80 players. Its the first time we had this much legacy players in Manila. We usually have around 30 players max joining a tournament There was actually more than 80, but a lot didn't make it because there was a player cap of 80. I'm hoping this will be a start of something new for legacy here in our area.

I haven't really played for more than 5 months now but managed to get top 7 out of 80 players playing mono white stax.
This is the top 8 of 80 players


1. Gw Zoo
2. Belcher
3. UW Fish
4. Mono R Burn
5. UW Fish
6. UWb Sliver - not meathooks
7. White Stax
8. 36 Lands ? im not so sure if its 36 or 46..


First my list

4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
4 wasteland
3 mishra's factory
7 Plains
3 flagstones of trokair
4 mox diamonds

3 exalted angel
4 magus of the tabernacle

3 smokestack
4 ghostly prison
4 trinisphere
4 chalice of the void
4 armageddon
4 crucible of worlds
2 Oblivion Ring

Sideboard
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Defense Grid
4 Supression field
3 wrath of God
3 Seal of cleansing

I'm quite tired, but I'll try to make a quick tourney report while its still fresh because I only have a few notes.

Round 1 Elf
( on the draw)
Game 1
I lose because of small mana producing elves and priest of titania.. They just paid for ghostly prison and smashed me with racored river boas.
Game 2
I managed to lock him with a first turn chalice, then trinisphere after which Factory beats and wins the game for me.
Game 3
He beats me quite fast, he drops a stampeding wilderbeast, I O ring it, was suppsed to O ring another creature just so the wilderbeast would bounce itself,2 for 1, but then again he dropped another creature, so I O. ring the wilderbeast.I go down to 9, then I drop exalted and win the game shortly after.

2-1

Round 2 UW fish
Game 1
Some early lock pieces were countered. And jotun beats down. I go down to zero.
Game 2
Meddling mage naming prison, after which I draw prison.Shortly after jitte gets equipped , and mage beats down. I draw nothing to answer the mage.I drop a magus but jitte has 4 counters already. I go down to 4, I have a tomb and 3 lands in play(one is tapped to pay for the magus upkeep). armageddon and another land. I was thinking of dropping the land, then armageddon but I thought it would be a waste of land drop if I did drop it then geddon. I play geddon,and shortly after I play geddon. I remembered that he might have daze, as he only had 3 cards in hand. Can't take it back now.. Armageddon is countered by daze... Done game. Very bad play on my side.Lesson learned.


Round3 Kithkin weenie (this was meant for standard but he wasn't able to join standard as he was late)

GAme 1. Angel then geddon win..
Game 2. He gets to swarm kithkins and kicks my ass.
Game 3 ANgel then geddon, win.

Round4 -Kavu false cure combo mixed in with aggro components.
Game 1 He duresses and takes off a trinisphere, I draw another one a few turns later and cast it. Magus beats down for the win. At this point I was assuming he was playing black sui, since I didnt see a lot out of his deck.

Game 2- I side in some wraths. First turn he drops a basic forest.. I was like.. uh oh... He drops confidant. I drop trinisphere and ghostly prison, I drop Smokestack and from here on I thought I had him. He draws a deed.. He plays deed, he has 3 lands and a lotus petal or chrome mox as of this point. I have at least anther turn. I draw land.. he attacks and passes.. I draw O .ring. I didn't have much choice. I o ring deed.. He uses it. All my permanents are gone. after which he drops tarmo.O draw into ghostly.he attacks I draw into another ghostly.. he drops a kavu.. I drop an angel. Beat down continues.. hez kavu is at 10/10 now.but cant attack because of 2 prisons.. I proceed and win.

He was kinda playing slow, and I was quite bothered by it. I knew if I didn't beat him at the 2nd game it would be a draw.Good thing I did.

Current standing-2-1

Round 3 R/g goblins.
Game 1 I play first, drop a chalice for 1. Magus and smokestack lock ensures he has no permanents
Game 2 Goblin lackey beats down, I after a few turns. More seige gang commanders.. I wrath again.. I'm slowly killing myself with ancient tomb as well. I go down to 3, He l.bolts..
Game 3. I managed to stabilize at 1 life with prisons, he has 2 basic lands left with a pile driver and a hooligan. I have a prison Cow(which I used to constantly waste his duals) lands and a morphed E. angel.. He attacks with hooligan.. Im forced to block with angel,hooligan ang angel dies.. This is my last turn..I said.. I top deck another angel...what awesome luck. Pile drivers watch my life go back up.

Standing 3-1

Round 5 R/G zoo

game 1-He beats down with ascetic and that goblin shusher.
Game 2 I beat down with magus. and lock him out.
Game 3- This is where I made some bad mistakes..We play and I almost had him at a lock... He had a shusher and magus of the moon..
I had city of traitors, 2 plains..2 factories and a wasteland, magus,smokestack and some lock pieces..I have angel in hand... wasteland taps to pay for magus upkeep.. I use the 6 mana I have left to pay for angel, when I play angel, he then reminds me that I can't pay for her because of magus of the moon and thus goes to the graveyard..I didn't even bother to ask, as I was quite in a hurry to win the game as well, time was runnning fast. Angel goes to the graveyard, where supposedly she was supposed to go back to my hand,?? isn't she supposed to go back to my hand since I could have never afford to pay her casting cost??? (maybe this was his way of getting back at me because there was a point where he fetched a land with supression field having only 1 land,thus I let him pay a life and fetch nothing).
Back to the game, after this I manage to lock him out to zero permanents.. But factories got him down to 2 before time ran out... There could have been some more errors on my part as I was not only hungry but quite tired as well.

standing. 4-1-1

Round 7 UGr thresh
This kid playing is extremely lucky,, I think he had 20 force of wills and 20 ponders in the deck.

Game 1 , He plays land.. I play chalice at 1.. he forces... He plays tarmo.. I play trinisphere.. He forces... Wow.... bleh. that sucks.. He plays ponder , brainstorm,and beats me down with 2 goyfs.

Game 2, I go first.. I play chalice,, He forces.. force again... He plays land goose, I play trinsphere.. he forces...He ponders, goose on his turn.. I play chalice again, he forces!!!!! wtf!!! He starts to beat with goose but it doesn't hurt as much to me since its only 1/1 for now. I drop ghostly prison eventually, crucible and start wasting his non basics.I drop a smokestack and hence the lock.... I told the kid how force of will and ponder loves him soo much.. I had quite good hands, with early lock pieces...

Game 3- He goes first, land ponders, I drop chalice, he forces.... zzzzzzzzzz..
He drops goyf... I drop trini.. HE FORCES!!!!!!! goyf starts to beat down,casts ponder.. I draw another trini.. I play.. he doesnt have the 3rd force.. what a miracle...I play prison.. HE plays trygon predator, I O .ring him .he still does some beat down with goyf and pay for 2 each time goyf attacks which is good for me at least I know he cant counter with force.. I play magus...Then chalice.. He forces, pays 3 mana to do so... I proceed to block tarmo and get the wasteland crucible lock, then eventual a smokestack

over all 5-1-1...

All in all, the deck is still good. I would have made some side board changes,
Seal of cleansing was dead and never brought in at any game.
Defense grid would be cut to 3
4 suppression fields are a must
2 O.rings maindeck could be the 5th armageddon effect and 4th angel
Wraths helped me a lot so it stays in my sideboard. (this is a metagame call)
The only time I boarded angels out was against thresh, where I focused primarily on the lock.(I however am not sure if this was the right call even)

I had a lot of blunders about side boarding, it was hard to decide which was more imporant..at certain match ups. who was playing, or drawing. Maybe we could set up a post on our general side boarding options against decks that are used most of the time.




Props

For having more than 80 players who wanted to join the GP side event

For seeing some of the old faces and lots of new faces as well.

Exalted angel for being one of the best creatures that can simply win games.

Magus of the tabernacle a big body that can really take some beating.

For the deck being both beat down and control at times,

For the deck being able to stabilize at even 1 life.

For my errors and learning from it.

Silver dragon and Fred bear for giving me some advice..I appreciate it.


Slops
Myself for making some bad play mistakes.

Myself again for not playing for 5 months, as I used to play stax and magus triggers on the stack making them sac first and tap later. But during the tournament, I actually forgot why I played it that way before...And I was thinking for so long that I know I used to play it that way.. but why.... I don't remember, So I had to just trust the text on the card, let them tap and sac whatever they tapped.. bummer.... And its only after the tourney the dragz reminded me, that the oracle text was changed for stax.. from during to the beginning, and then I remembered... so much for not playing for 5 months or so... ( I could have won some games faster and went 6-1 with without making this mistake)

Some players whom I think were purposely slow playing, its quite annoying.

For whomever organized this GP event, It was listed and advertised that there would be a single elimination for the top 8, for the side event of GP, but they changed their minds during the last few hours????? what a joke...

For whomever organized the GP event AGAIN.. they said that the italian legends booster packs were the prizes which excited a lot of players and maybe even pulled the vintage players to play legacy. INSTEAD they informed the players who were raving about the chance of getting mana drains and tabernacles that the prizes were still in singapore when the top 8 players were declared and brought to a table. they said it was instead going to be mailed, to each of the top 8 players............ what B.S..... they could have at least informed the players early on.. but no.... when it was time to hand out the prices, they were like.. uhhh... err..... ummm... zzzzzzzz....

[The Wes]

Grats flip! Nice list and nice top 8! How were the wraths and seals of cleansing for you?

[f|i[p]]

@the wes,

if you actually read the report, I stated that wrath was a metagame call and worked very well for me., Seals never came in... not one single game..so maybe next time you can read it .or better yet skim through it and just read what interests you.

You might actually learn from the mistakes I made during the tourney...
Sorry I know its quite boring to read reports, I tried to keep it short though, but it seems that it isn't.

I mean no offense though.

[dragzz]

Congrats Flip.

I was in the same tourney but my results wasn't as impressive
Went 3-3-1 and was waaay below the list

Here's what I played.

List

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
7 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Mox Diamonds

2 Windborn Muse
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

3 Smokestack
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Armageddon
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Oblivion Ring

Sideboard
3 Karmic Justice
3 Defense Grid
3 Supression field
4 Pithing Needle
2 Aura of Silence

My mistakes where primarily
Removing Angels for Muse = What was I thinking? I wanted to test the muse out on a large tourney and see if she's worth it. Sad to say she's not, she dies almost instantly whenever I got the chance to play her, and I almost always sided her out.

Cutting the Magus to 3. At least for me I felt like the Tabernacle land didn't bring much to deck, It didn't survive after a geddon which was useless if your on the loosing end and needed to sweep the table. It did nothing against control at least the tabernacle man acted as a win condition. I'd still keep it in the deck but I think I'll up the Magus count up to 4.

Removing cataclysm, I know a lot of people would say that it wasn't needed in the deck but for me it was. I was unlucky with my draw most of the time and my lock pieces didn't come as early as I would have wished. Cataclysm would just serve as a good reset button for games that didn't go as well as we hoped for, of course granted that its a dead card in situations that we have the upper hand.

On side board choices.
As Flip stated, I believe that 4 suppression is a must. It just extremely good.
On Pithing - I felt like it didn't offer that much advantage, though I was able to Needle a disk once, but that's just about what it did.
On Karmic - Never really got the chance to play it, because it got countered all the time.
On Defense Grid - Just plain Great.
On Aura of Silence - I was able to 2 down vs landstill which made Nevs and standstill impossible to cast. So I guess I'm keeping them.

Some players whom I think were purposely slow playing, its quite annoying.

I believe 20secs is a reasonable time to "think", unless its and extremely complex play (like solidarity or spring tide a minute or two is aceptable), I had the same experience with a landSTALL player where he uses sensei every time I would cast anything or do anything and "thinks" for about a minute or two. EVEN if he already just did just that a few seconds before.
Me: Play smokestack
He: Sensei > Thinks (Tictactictactictac a few mins) > Ok Good
Me: Playland > Waste his land
He: Sensei > Thinks (Tictactictac a bit longer) > Ok Good
Me: Irritated
Good thing I won that match, or I would have been so pissed

And I played with this guy who would "think" for about few mins during his turn(and mine) where he clearly can't do anything. because I had a trini and he had no mana sources. o.O

So when I know that the guy is only stalling i begin counting with my fingers and purposely show's them that I'm doing it.

[Skeggi]

Nice report Flip, grtz on the top8 :)

Game 2
Meddling mage naming prison, after which I draw prison.Shortly after jitte gets equipped , and mage beats down. I draw nothing to answer the mage.I drop a magus but jitte has 4 counters already. I go down to 4, I have a tomb and 3 lands in play(one is tapped to pay for the magus upkeep). armageddon and another land. I was thinking of dropping the land, then armageddon but I thought it would be a waste of land drop if I did drop it then geddon. I play geddon,and shortly after I play geddon. I remembered that he might have daze, as he only had 3 cards in hand. Can't take it back now.. Armageddon is countered by daze... Done game. Very bad play on my side.Lesson learned.

I like to point out this mistake: I've been making them myself aswell (you really hit yourself for this one, so side-effect is a headache on top of your sorrow); so remember folks: if your opponent plays daze, drop land first! Very important lesson :)

Removing Angels for Muse = What was I thinking? I wanted to test the muse out on a large tourney and see if she's worth it. Sad to say she's not, she dies almost instantly whenever I got the chance to play her, and I almost always sided her out.

My Muses are in my meta slot and they're on the point of getting kicked out for something else. I thought the extra Prisons would be good, but the fact is: Muses are not extra prisons. I must say they don't completely suck, but often when they work they seem win-more.

Anyway, back tot the drawing board of everyone's favourite lock-deck: this has been spoiled from Shards of Alara:
For those who can read Japanese or French:

For those who can't read Japanese or French:
Goblin Assault
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep, put a 1/1 red Goblin creature token with haste into play.
Goblin creatures attack each turn if able.

With the new planeswalker, the red splash seems more viable. Other people have been naming Bitterblossom as a nice permanent-pooper; unfortunately it's black, costs life and is out of our curve. This card is red, so goes nicely with Ajani, doesn't cost life and fits the curve. My main problem would be: I have no idea what to place it for: my current guess is, that this card won't be used in Stax; however I just wanted to point it out to you guys, perhaps you think otherwise :)

[f|i[p]]

I don't think that card belongs in stax, although it gives us permanents, I don't really see anything worth cutting for it...

The card is very offensive, and we usually would like to delay opponents from trying to win.Those tokens can't even block, because they would be attacking each turn..hence it would leave you open for attacks. And if a jiite goes through our delaying tactics.. the tokens would even help pump enemy creatures or give them life...

So many red cards that would be interesting in this deck. Greater Gargadon comes to mind...

[Zinch]

I haven't read the entire post (i'm lazy) but, has anyone test ajani (the old one, the monowhite one) in this deck??

Seems that he could be very good: don't have to pay upkeep for him, it makes you gain life (in some matches, this is an issue), is a very good finisher and I love that card

I know the opponenet don't have to pay to attack him, but the idea is play him when he will survive or at least to gain some time...

[The Wes]

If I remember correctly after testing him a few people decided that he died easily and that there were just better options. Because of the amount of cards that are considered to be needed in the mb, its hard to fit new ones in, and I and don't think he ever helped the deck do things it couldn't do better without him.

[ssilver]

what do you side out for suppression field?

[Fred Bear]

what do you side out for suppression field?

In what matchup?

[f|i[p]]

We should actually make a list of our common sideboard options ... what to side in and out specially against bad match ups and more popular decks.. Just for information purposes.. Everyone can have their own opinion on it but generally speaking...

[Skeggi]

Hey guys, I went to a 36 people tournament Saturday and ended pretty bad. Fortunately there weren't any real mistakes from my side this time, but the meta was very Stax-unfriendly: Trygon Predators MB, Jotun Grunt MB and that kind of stuff...Gaddock Teeg is a bitch too...so is Back to Basics; doesn't kill you, but sure stalls the stuff annoyingly.

Anyway here's my list:

4 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War

1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Exalted Angel

1 Moat
4 Ghostly Prison

3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond

3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Mishra's Factory
5 Plains
2 Tundra
2 Academy Ruins
3 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

SB:

1 Trinisphere
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Aura of Silence
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Suppression Field
2 Defense Grid
2 Karmic Justice

In short, about the deck:

I didn't like the moat, it's just a mana-expensive Prison. Doesn't stop that damn Predator.

Engineered Exposives: they never actually go off, but they posted a very strong threat: had to lure another counter or Vindicate or Grip. They're pretty cool, but I have doubts nonetheless.

Academy Ruins: they recurred 0 artifacts during 6 rounds.

About the sideboard:

Trinisphere - this one is going back maindeck instead of the Moat.
Suppression Field - still the best SB card ever, won me many games.
Tormod's Crypt - only used in 1 match.
Aura of Silence - never used.
Oblivion Ring - Very often used, brilliant card still.
Defense Grid - Utterly useless.
Karmic Justice - Used a couple of times when I feared boardsweepers (such as Deeds).

I'm going to switch one Crypt for a Suppression Field, the 2 Auras of Silence will be dropped so I can run 3 Oblivion Rings. The Defense Grids will go for 2 Windborn Muses.

The Moat isn't going into the sideboard. It is plain out of here. I'm going to throw in 2 copies of Runed Halo, see how it fits

That's all I can say for now - DeathScythe was there too, and was pretty much as unsuccesful as me - perhaps he has some additional comments

[DeathScythe]

Like Skeggi stated I was also at the tournament

My list

3 exalted angel
3 magus of the tabernacle
4 ghostly prison
2 oblivion ring
2 moat
3 armageddon
2 ravages of war
3 smokestack
4 crucible of worlds
4 chalice of the void
3 trinisphere
3 mox diamond
3 flagstones of trokair
3 wasteland
1 kor haven
3 city of traitos
4 ancient tomb
3 mishra's factory
7 plains


Sideboard

1 trinisphere
3 karmic justice
3 defense grid
3 tormod's crypt
2 karmic justice
1 oblivion ring
1 enlightened tutor
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale

I went 0-4-2 (started 0-0-2...) but this is mostly because I just didn't have my day and was constantly screwing things up for some odd reason. Example, almost locked and I decide to sac a chalice for my smokestack on 1 when my oppo has a welder out, how stupid can I possible be?!

My comments

3 flagstones, I'm so switching back to 2 flagstones 1 god's eye I didn't like it like earlier builds (decided to try as my entree was free anyway)
kor haven, didn't liek the thing, thinking about swinging the tabernacle main but that means I'm playing 23 mana producing lands, which could be tricky it opens new sb plans though
3 smokestack, as i was used to play 4 the 3 count was different to play but that will take time I think

3 aura of silence, good thing I'm soo keeping it as a 3-off
3 defense grid, 3 is coolish esp if you find all 3 against monoblue XD
3 crypt, didn't need them in any of the games
2 karmic justice, good card as most of the people board stuff like grips/ EE, makes them think twice about using them
1 oblivion ring, needed them 1 MU
1 tutor, got boarded it but never drew it, if tabernacle goes main it's outta here and new SB plan will be thought over
1 tabernacle, never sided it in hence I want to throw it MB
1 trinisphere, didn't see any combo so didn't go in

I think we just ran into the wrong decks because there was stuff like goblins ( 3 went T8) and DS which are very good MU for this deck, so throwing knifes at the HJ might be a good idea next time

I'll see Skeggi next week at a tourny which I'll be HeadJudging so I'm going to pay close attention to his matches

[f|i[p]]

So which matchups did you guys consider bad? or really bad?

[DeathScythe]

So which matchups did you guys consider bad? or really bad?

very terrible bad
decks that run vindicate, deed, EE on 3/4. MB trygon predator

bad
Decks that run seize/duress/hymn (mostly if on the draw due to chalice/Tsphere)
decks that can kill you T1 and/or completly/mostly ignore the combat step (mostly combo, stifflenought)