[Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)

[Trancerogue]

"But Meditate's a better Wish target; at least it's an opportunity while going off. I'd run the TfK(s) main if you want extra mass draw."

@TheInfamousBearAssassin
I think your a little mislead by my idea. The 4th meditate comes into to the maindeck and replaces 1 Opt. Three Wishes replaces the Meditate in the Sideboard. Three Wishes would not hinder you while going off, you would only use it when going off. In my testing that Meditate was only used then and rarely in setting up the combo. You gain the advantage of adding another draw 4 card main and a combo enabler Draw 3 in the side. Cunning Wish for Meditate does seem wasteful and I just want to see what others think about the idea.

TfKs are bad in this deck you know that already, you've read this forum alot im sure. Three Wishes is just replacing the Meditate in the sideboard and allowing you to run the full 4 Meditates, which IMO are very good in this type of combo deck. Test it out and let me know what you all think, then reply with results.

[Deep6er]

OK, well I'm back from gold fishing Ad Nauseam.

Verdict: Unknown.

For reference, here's the list I was testing:

4 Orim's Chant
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Reset
4 Twincast
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Brain Freeze
4 Meditate
2 Cunning Wish
3 Ad Nauseam

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Island
2 Tundra

The basic idea was that Orim's Chant was a better protection spell because it played better with Ad Nauseam.

Also, the Rituals are there to help offset the cost of Ad Nauseam in order to make it a better set up spell. Plus, they help to defray the cost on things like Meditate and Cunning Wish.

Mystical Tutor will help find Ad Nauseam/Twincast/Orim's Chant.

More or less what happened was that I was trying to force a turn 3 combo in most games where I could plausibly do something. There was some success here, but generally required a ritual plus Reset into Ad Nauseam to really scream, "BUSTED" to me.

The build is very interesting in that turn four kills are almost as high as ninety percent (with proper use of mulligans). Ad Nauseam is actually pretty ludicrously insane even with the high amount of three cost cards in the deck. Just about every time I cast the card, I won the game. I would draw upwards of nine (occasionally more) cards which set up everything amazing well.

I was working with the supposition that I had a sideboard of plausible cards. Using the following as a baseline I had: Turnabout, Ad Nauseam, and Stroke of Genius as the only cards I would wish for. I found that with those three, I had just about every base covered.

The Twincasts are awesome at continuing the combo and would theoretically help the match up against Storm Combo and Control (by either copying their defensive Chants for Storm Combo, or answering counters against Control).

While this build is fascinating, I don't actually feel that it does anything to help the Threshold match up. Which kind of tosses that idea right out the window.

I only tested about thirty games, which isn't extremely conclusive (as evidenced by my verdict above), but I felt that it was necessary to convey what I thought about the card as it stands.

EDIT: After more testing, I have determined that it does, in fact, increase the turn three kill. By a reasonable margin at that. Whereas before, I would peg it at around thirty per cent, I would put this build at closer to forty-five. While a remarkable addition, I found that Ad Nauseam is actually pretty ridiculous. I only killed myself once. Out of all thirty plus games.

Humorous anecdotes include drawing seventeen cards on one Ad Nauseam, and winning on two lands through the use of a hand that had: Twincast, two Resets, a High Tide, two Dark Rituals, and an Ad Nauseam. Yeah, that was pretty ludicrous.

[Zinch]

Are you sure that a turn 3 kill without protection is better than a turn 4 kill with FoW and Remand??
Ad NAuseam can be a good card for this deck, but I believe that this dramatic change isn't needed

[Bahamuth]

OK, well I'm back from gold fishing Ad Nauseam.

Verdict: Unknown.

For reference, here's the list I was testing:

4 Orim's Chant
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Reset
4 Twincast
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Brain Freeze
4 Meditate
2 Cunning Wish
3 Ad Nauseam

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Island
2 Tundra

Wow, that deck is awesome! My first thought was that this wouldn't help the Thresh matchup either, but I'm not even so anymore. There's a definite speed increase, and the Tutors will certainly help to increase the chances of finding answers to CB. The list still maintains the Solidarity feeling, where you aren't required to have certain cards to win (Like Doomsday, TES of FT), but it seems to act much more like a combo deck than a combo-control deck, because you really want to cast AdN as early as possible.

I have some questions though:

1) Where's Remand? Why would you cut it?
2) Why only one Brain Freeze? In combination with Remand and the Rituals, we can even get some wins without drawing any cards.
3) Is 4 Cabal Ritual really good? In other words: do you manage to get to threshold fast enough to warrant it?

EDIT: By the way, Van Phanel is working on translating his brand new primer into English, and, probably after it passed the Soli boards, he will hopefully post it here too (I hope we can put it at the first post in this thread, because the info here is just amazing).

[Van Phanel]

This list looks interesting even if it's very different from the Solidarity of the last years.

Why would this be better than a sorcery speed deck with Ad Nauseam though (Reset aside)? You can't really wait for your opponent to do something because every point of damage you take will reduce the number of cards that you can draw with Ad Nauseam. While we're at this: How did you goldfish the deck? Did you just count down from 20 while ignoring your possible opponent or did you do something else?

I can see Pact of Negation being useful with this list. Maybe as a two-of main and the other two side.

Also, Daze seems like an incredible pain in the ass.

And a final thought: Why is Ad Nauseam better than Skeletal Scrying in this deck? Yes. it can draw more cards. Not if you are on low life though. An advantage of AN would be that you can always decide to stop before you get too close to be dead while with Scrying you have to decide before you know what you'll draw.

That said Ad Nauseam could improve Solidarity, but the problem with Counterbalance remains.

- Van

PS: About the primer: I'll have it finished some time this week (don't know exactly when), then Deep6er will read through it and then I will post it. It won't say anything outright new though, it will just summarize known info.

[deadlock]

Besides the most important that Van already mentioned is see several other problems with the concept.

-Manabase is weak as fuck, weaker even than from decks like FT, because you cant run a basic swamp.
-18 lands and no second cantrip makes one-land-hands risky to keep.
-Misses cards that have a great interaction with AN (Lions Eye Diamond foremost).

That being said i also think AN could have an positive effect Solidarity: If a strong AN Tendrils deck emerge than a Solidarity version with 4 Twincast between maindeck/sideboard could be become viable in order to beat this deck.
Or a small black splash is made for 1 Ad Nauseam in the SB..

[Deep6er]

@Zinch: The faster Solidarity CAN kill, the better. Increasing the possible turn three kills makes match ups like Ichorid and Storm Combo exponentially better because they don't rely on you having Force in your opening hand. Plus, this deck plays Orim's Chant. That's definitely protection and serves as proactive (or reactive if they play one of their own) disruption against other Storm Combo decks.

@Bahamuth: I cut Remand because this was built on the supposition that Ad Nauseam Storm Combo decks would be on the rise with the printing of Ad Nauseam. Remand would ONLY be good against them on the play, and Twincast is actually better with that supposition in mind.

I won't lie, I hate drawing Brain Freeze. Especially since Flash isn't in the deck, the fact that there's so many bad draws makes me hesitant to play more.

With eight fetches, Brainstorm, Mystical Tutor, and High Tide, it's pretty simple getting to Threshold. It's pretty common to have large amounts of black mana floating which help to offset the cost of cards like Meditate. Granted, their primary purpose is to cast Ad Nauseam, but they still have uses elsewhere (especially in conjunction with Stroke of Genius).

@Van Phanel: If it is better in this deck, then the reason would be it's much stronger control match up. I was testing viability here, not strength. The idea was that certain strategies that were strong before Ad Nauseam would be obviated by Ad Nauseam Storm Combo decks. Decks that rely on discard would be weakened because of the ludicrous power of Ad Nauseam. Thus, the idea was that the format would devolve into; Threshold, Control decks that beat Threshold, Storm Combo.

You're right about Daze, I see nothing here that really helps the Threshold match. That's why I'm taking it in a different direction. I just wanted people to know what I was working on and how it was doing.

Skeletal Scrying is not as good. Ad Nauseam is (on turn three) guaranteed to draw more cards than Scrying. It's not out of the question to draw upwards of nine cards because of the low curve. Plus, lands are free. I think Ad Nauseam is definitely better than Skeletal Scyring, and I really don't think there are that many decks out there that can do enough damage on turns one and two that warrant playing something like Scrying over Ad Nauseam.

I gold fished it by assuming that there was no opponent. The only damage I would take is from fetches. The Chants were dead draws, so I would always Brainstorm them away. It's not terribly accurate, but it was mainly just because I was going for speed. I've done the same thing to gauge earlier Solidarity builds that were based on speed. It's similar to how certain matches play out because few people expect Solidarity to combo out on turn three. Thus, they're a little more lax with their play for the first couple turns.

@Deadlock: Lions Eye Diamond actually doesn't help Ad Nauseam. At all. With Ad Nauseam in a TES type build, you're likely to draw into Lotus Petals and Spirit Guides. You're going to draw into starting mana. With this deck, you just need to keep two blue floating in order to hit Reset.

Yeah, the mana base is bad, but remember what I was testing this for. This was supposed to be under the assumption that Ad Nauseam changes the format. In that format, Wasteland would be awful because it doesn't do shit to Storm Combo that's going off on turn one or two. Thus, it doesn't make a difference how bad your mana base is. It makes a difference whether or not you can stop Ad Nauseam.

The eighteen lands with only Brainstorm IS a problem. You're right about that. I tested the Mystical Tutors as Opts, and found that Mystical Tutor is pretty important in this build. It's the only way to guarantee finding a High Tide.

There is a problem. The only way Twincasting an Ad Nauseam would be good is if you were playing Force. Because you're likely going to tap out to play Twincast. Sure, the six life isn't a big deal (to keep you from losing the game), but it digs into your ability to abuse Ad Nauseam, and it makes it much more dangerous to use Ad Nauseam (because of the seven five casting cost cards in the deck).

I'll be testing other incarnations of the idea presented here, and I'll keep you up to date on the ones that seem interesting. As it stands now, I really don't like the deck that I posted. It's fragile, and depends on a rather specific start to get going. Sure it's faster, but I don't know how much better that makes it. Especially since it can't play Force.

[deadlock]

I dont know if this is a good example, but i liked this goldfish:

1st turn land, BS, dropping two LED's.

2nd turn upkeep casting Mystical for AN breaking the LED's in response - casting AN with LED mana.

Adding SDT into the mix gives you additional ways to draw into AN or setup a Doomsday.

[Deep6er]

Or you could have just gotten Infernal Tutor and won anyway.

Lion's Eye Diamond doesn't help to cast Ad Nauseam except in corner cases. It's pretty hard to use with Burning Wish (what with not being a sorcery), and it doesn't really help Infernal Tutor (getting Ad Nauseam using LED means you just could have won anyways).

[Illissius]

That list has only four untap effects (not counting Wish->Turnabout, which is seven mana), while it has eight Rituals. Is such a small High Tide 'engine' still worth running?

[Pelikanudo]

Well ,It's a fact Ad Nauseam is insane, and I'll post my version of Solidarity with A.N.
4 Pact of negation
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
3 Mystical Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Reset
4 twincast
4 Cabal Ritual
2 Brain Freeze
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Ad Nauseam

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
6 Island

for reference the side will be:
1 meditate
1 stroke
1 mistical tutor
4 Spellsnare
4 FoWs
1 Wipe away
1 Rebuild
1 TurnAbout
1 B Freeze

The build is quite similar to Deepers build but , honestly 3 mana is quite difficult to support so I decided to go for the Pact's way instead Orims

the side is quite logic so decided to bring cards we usually play in solidarity like FoWs and Snares , I haven't yet seen a deck that plays blue and DOES NOT play FoWs, did you?
My test aboutr M.Tutor is that it can't search for a land which is disgusting,

I decided to take out 1 M.Tutor for a C.Wish . wich can target one tutor

Respect to twincast... I'm testing its natural replacing : remand but I recognize that most of the times you'll copy for rituals or Tides or rests.. which is fundamental

Cards I really miss :
1- Opt ( paying 18 lands we DO need cards like this... I REALLY miss you boy )
2- Impulse
2- FoWs ( at least we have it on side)

[Gocho]

You can use Mystical to search Rituals.

[Bahamuth]

Well ,It's a fact Ad Nauseam is insane, and I'll post my version of Solidarity with A.N.
4 Pact of negation
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
3 Mystical Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Reset
4 twincast
4 Cabal Ritual
2 Brain Freeze
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Ad Nauseam

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
6 Island

for reference the side will be:
1 meditate
1 stroke
1 mistical tutor
4 Spellsnare
4 FoWs
1 Wipe away
1 Rebuild
1 TurnAbout
1 B Freeze

The build is quite similar to Deepers build but , honestly 3 mana is quite difficult to support so I decided to go for the Pact's way instead Orims

the side is quite logic so decided to bring cards we usually play in solidarity like FoWs and Snares , I haven't yet seen a deck that plays blue and DOES NOT play FoWs, did you?
My test aboutr M.Tutor is that it can't search for a land which is disgusting,

I decided to take out 1 M.Tutor for a C.Wish . wich can target one tutor

Respect to twincast... I'm testing its natural replacing : remand but I recognize that most of the times you'll copy for rituals or Tides or rests.. which is fundamental

Cards I really miss :
1- Opt ( paying 18 lands we DO need cards like this... I REALLY miss you boy )
2- Impulse
2- FoWs ( at least we have it on side)

I like this list more. PoN is obviously much stronger here than in decks with LED, and especially with Meditate. Do, however, realise, that playing this card almost requires us to play a Meditate once we combo, or we'll probably lose on our own turn.

Another problem is that this list loses big time to CounterBalance.

[Tacosnape]

I disagree with Ad Nauseum in this deck. I'd rather have my Force power and stay instant.

However, I've been doing a lot of investigation into permanent maindecking of Chants (With 3 Tundras, enough to pay kicker and survive one random Wasteland/Vindicate), and I think the time has come to do this for several reasons.

1. Chant hurts every deck that plays Ad Nauseum. It also hurts most rare combo decks that don't, barring 2-card combo decks and Ichorid.

2. Chant protects you from any kind of countermagic or disruption during your combo, allowing you to reduce the number of Remands in the deck and allow you to Force more aggressively.

3. Chant makes Force of Will stop Counterbalance. They drop Counterbalance, you Chant, then Force. It's three cards to stop one, yes, but Solidarity is far more equipped to handle this card disadvantage than it is to try and deal with a resolved Counterbalance.

The list I've been playing around with is as follows:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
7 Island

4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
4 Impulse
4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Remand
3 Turnabout
2 Brain Freeze
4 Orim's Chant
4 Force of Will

SB:
3 Twincast
2 Hydroblast
2 Wipe Away
1 Brain Freeze
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Tempest of Light

I'm still tinkering with ways to not make the deck fizzle less as a result of the maindeck Chants, though.

[Deep6er]

Three for one'ing yourself is a guaranteed way to lose to Threshold. You know why? Because you can't really afford to Meditate because of how stupid Tarmogoyf is. Even if you stop a Counterbalance, you're down to about three or four cards in your hand, and since the only card advantage in your deck is Meditate, you're bound to lose. All they need is a single counter to stop you at that point.

Plus, when you consider the fact that you have even more dead draws because of Chant/Force/Lands, you're bound to fail.

I'm against that list even more than I am against the one I posted. While I don't like the list I posted, I realized that Ad Nauseam is actually stunningly strong enough to support a faster win, which is important if Ad Nauseam decks are as strong as they seem to be.

Remand is a lot worse now too. You're not going to be able to do anything reliable with it, because the Storm Combo decks will be going off (or at the very least doing something) guaranteed before you have two mana open. Plus, with only three, you're unlikely to see it in your opener.

@Pelikanudo: Pact doesn't do anything to stop Counterbalance. This is true. However, since my list also loses to Counterbalance (and since I've been trying to find the fastest, most consistent turn three kill version with Ad Nauseam), I don't mind. What I do mind is the three Cunning Wishes. My list originally had three, and I found that they were really bad. You can't really afford to play three. Honestly. They cost too much, and it's an uncomfortable gamble with Ad Nauseam with cards like Cunning Wish because you're going to have mana issues. Plus, it doesn't really help set up the turn three win, which is what we should be looking for.

I think it's important to find the list that wins consistently on turn three in order to determine the viability of adding additional disruption to that list. I personally don't like Pact, but then again, I wasn't happy with Chant either.

I'll keep on tinkering, but one this is for certain, Ad Nauseam is actually really good. Dangerously good. I think it would be a disservice to not play the card.

@Illissius: The Rituals are also fantastic at supporting colorless mana requirements. Additionally, the Mystical Tutors help find Resets and Twincasts double Resets (which is basically one of the two uses, the other being copying Meditate, but that's less necessary because of how insane Ad Nauseam is). So, it's rarely (but still happens occasionally) a huge deal. Sometimes it bites me in the ass though. I still think that's it's a necessary sacrifice.

[Zinch]

I agree Ad Nauseam is a great card, but if you play them, aren't you conceding to burn and almost to goyf slight??
Also there is the issue about wasteland that is a timewalk against you...

In other note... why now mystical tutor is a good option and not before??
I heven't tested them in solidarity because everyone agree they weren't good enough and the winning decks didn't play them, but now you are all including them... Why??

[deadlock]

In my opinion the instant speed interferes with the idea to play AN as a setup spell at the end of your opponent's turn, because you have to discard down to 7. So you have to play AN and keep UU open for Reset like you said.
Which brings me to a sorcery speed version: It loses flexibility and the powerful untap in form of Reset, but gains other good spells and a better finisher.

EDIT:
Screwed decklist killed

[Van Phanel]

This card is named Ad Nauseam

@ Zinch: Read other posts, not just the lists:

At the current state of the format Deep6er is not going to run that Ad Nauseam list because it sucks (more or less). As of now, this list is a hypothetical that could only see play if (and that is not certain) the existence of Ad Nauseam changes the whole format into combo, control and Threshold. If that happens, this new version of Solidarity might actually be pretty good. On the other hand it won't be able to fix the problem with Threshold.

I still don't see why any of the Ad Nauseam lists that people are testing should be better than Belcher though and Belcher didn't wreck the format either (no arguments about this please, I know the reasons for Ad Nauseam and as long as they haven't wrecked the format, I refuse to believe they will).

[Deep6er]

The difference between Ad Nauseam Storm and Belcher would be the fact that Ad Nauseam would kill on that turn.

Whereas Belcher was likely to Empty for ten or so, Ad Nauseam will kill you with Tendrils. That's a far cry from getting two turns to deal with tokens.

The differences are basically in kill structure. Since Ad Nauseam is going to kill the turn it casts Ad Nauseam, it's definitely a different approach to Storm Combo than Belcher. Belcher just wants to do something on turn one. Ad Nauseam wants to fucking kill you on turn one. See?

[Poron]

What about the green splash?

Determined instead of Orim's Chant (this wrecks Counterbalance too) and Krosan Grip to own it worse