I understand that people are desperate to find new cards to play in Stax, but a lot of these fall well short of addressing the actual needs of the current build, at least in my opinion.
Scourglass is a weak alternative to other options. Yes, it will kill all creatures. Yes, it will kill all enchantments. Yes, it is a permanent. But... it takes 2 turns and you can only activate it during your upkeep and it costs 5 mana and it blows up our creatures and enchantments. What decks play both creatures and enchantments that we would care about? Survival? 5 mana and two turns is pretty slow against a deck that only needs 1 mana to find an answer and 2-3 to play it. Enchantress? We don't even board specific answers for enchantress since their is (no offense to enchantress players intended) no such thing as an 'enchantress-heavy meta'. Outside of those two decks, who would we play this against? It will kill a Deed against those decks, if they don't activate it before our next upkeep (Needle stops it dead and doesn't kill my Prison or Tabernacle). It will kill a goblin/elf hoard (Magus or Prison plus an Armageddon does a good job of that too, I hear, not to mention Wrath of God is playable when necessary). I think you can mold a build to include this, but you need to rework several areas of the deck.
Sanctum Gargoyle is also not good. Treasure Hunter does the same thing a turn earlier and its not really playable. Yes, Gargoyle is an artifact which has some synergy, but it also dies to Naturalize, Disenchant, Krosan Grip, etc. all of which you will face post-board anyhow.
I think one question that I have for the folks who play this deck, is how do you play it? What are your primary and secondary goals or objectives? [Please don't answer with smart ass 'to win'-type answers]
For me, against an unknown opponent, I tend to focus on eliminating my opponents options (board control) or forcing them away from their game-plan (mana disruption) depending on what my opening seven shows me. Once I understand their game plan (or know what deck they are playing), I will typically drive towards specifics (i.e. Prison-Tabernacle-'Geddon vs aggro or 3-Sphere-Chalice-'Geddon vs 'control' - sorry for the generalization). While it may sound obvious, I don't believe this is a universal way to play the deck. Several folks play Cataclysm - it does not work if you play the deck like I do since I rely on multiple artifacts/enchantments to fully lock my opponent out of options and Cataclysm does not help that. Maindecking Exalted Angel also creates other avenues for play. It may seem odd to state, but when I did play Angel, i played the deck very different than I play my current build. Stax also offers a lot of 'tricks' beyond the natural synergies (i.e. Flagstones-Crucible-Smokestack = natural while Gods' Eye-Crucible-Smokestack = trick, etc.) almost none of which I employ - I tend to play a very 'clinical' game. My sideboarding plans would also seem unorthodox because of my comfort level with this deck.
I'm interested in hearing how others approach their gameplan because I think it leads directly into which cards offer the best maindeck/sideboard set-up and which cards offer the highest 'comfort' level with the deck.
Just some food for thought...
-FB...
![f|i[p]'s Avatar](image.php?u=1207&dateline=1151478899 "f|i[p]'s Avatar")
Aside from the new angel. the new planeswalkers, and cannonist for the sideboard, I havn't really seen any other card thats worth testing. Gargoyle dies too easily just like windborn muse does. Scourglass is just plain slow.
The metagame which your playing at, may actually affect the way you play stax as well.Originally Posted by Fred Bear
Against an unknown opponent on the first game,I play the deck and primarily focus on the lock at first, I don't usually rely on a smokestack win but rather an angel win (this is because most decks here are aggro oriented with a few combo and some control) . Once I know their deck, then I switch strategies, siding out angel against decks that I think would be better off winning via lock like threshold. Im not sure if this is the right way to play against thresh, but thats how I decided on the last tournament I went to.
I primarily focus on the lock, wanting trinispheres and chalices early followed by magus of the tabernacle to stall the game , even win with him if it permits or a game ending armageddon. If I get a very good lock early my primary win con is smokestack/armageddon,if not I go angel which is really important for an agrro metagame. Most times I go down to 8 or below life before I even get to stabilize.
I mostly play the same general list except that I do not run the tabernacle land and armageddon 5/6(which is ravages of war).5 armageddon effects would have been perfect, but since I don't have ravages. I replace ravages of war with 2 oblivion rings. When alara comes out this will be the place I would test the 2 planes walkers or or the angel.
Hello,
Its been awhile since ive played magic for about 4-5 years or so, during the last legacy tournament ive played in i fought with geddon stax, and sad to say i just rolled over it. I din't know what his exact deck list was, but i was expecting that i will defenitly loose bec im using a white aggro deck. I had i high hopes in stax decks cause before i stopped playing magic i tinkered over several stax deck for legacy but i end up using wildfire stax during those times there where no magus of taberncale then.
I haven't played with any geddon stax other than that but, just a curious question on the geddon stax players here, i dont see any wrath of god nor swords to plowshares on the sb list, but what are you going to do when the magus of tabernacle + geddon + smokestack lock isn't online when faced with a easy to cast whamo creature like ernham or calciderm. I know oblivion ring can deal with that temporarly thats why i like them.
I guess what im trying to say is a typical senario is something like this. i control 2 serra avenger and 1 or 2 diamonds & 1 or 2 lands while the geddon stax player controls a magus of tabernacle, trinisphere, and without a draw engine or library manipulation while you wait for a smokestack or a geddon and when your opponent can overcome the temporary soft lock his more or less going to beat you to a pulp when he draws a SoFI or Jitte. Like what happened when i played against the geddon stax. Trinishpere, magus + geddon combo didnt affect the deck im using.
And with no anti enchantment / artifact nor pithing needle on several SBs just only depending on smokestack or oblivion ring to deal with it is kinda slow.
I know tons of play test have already done in the geddon stax deck by different player i know cause a stax deck needs alot of practice to be able to play it at its maximum potential.
has anybody tried using Endless Horizons, thus thinning the deck so you could build the lock faster.
First on endless horizon, it just doesn't suit the deck. It still only allows you to put one land into play a turn. Costs such that it usually isn't played till turn 3 and effect the game till turn 4. By that time you should have plenty of lands or are already in trouble. It also takes the plains out of the deck so there is less flagstone>plains interactions. Also, what do you take out for it? It isn't a lock piece, we dont' run that many plains, and we already have crucible to help with land problems. Perhaps in another deck...
One piece of the puzzle that you didn't seem to have to deal with in your run in against stax was ghostly prison or windborn muse. Personally I dont' think most agro strategies are what this deck fears at all. Just out of my own list I run 3 x magus, 2 x tabernacle, 4 x prison, 2 x muse. Those along with 4 armageddons seem to deal with most agro, unless I get unlucky, rather well. I know that my deck runs a bit more anti agro effects than some decks, with the extra tabernacle and 2 muses, but still. Hell, I even run 2 x cataclysm because of the randomness of many meta's I play in. Also, andy deck that runs equipment like jitte makes me want to bring in my s fields.
I think running a sb with no anti enchant/artifact removal or pithing is a wrong move overall. I dont' remember any though that didn't at least run o ring.
Team <spectacular
Welll I have encountered that problem during the gP, a single meddling mage equipped with a jitte killed me, this is also because he had counter back up. Ghostly prisons doesn't actually stop single creatures from killing you, armageddons with prisons only delay them for a couple of turns, unless they never draw a land.
If you don't get a good hand and a lock early on its usually game over if they get a creature equipped with jitte, unless you can top deck an O. ring or magus/geddon in time. A single creature swinging with a jitte, SOFI actually hurts this deck a lot. Solution will almost always be, get the lock early, delay it until you can get the lock , O. ring, MAgus and armageddon.
I don't actually think we have a problem with swarm aggro. Singleton creatures protected by counter spells is usually what gives me a problem. . I really don't see armageddon stax rolling over to aggro that isn't protected by counterspells. Each player has his own version and own list, but as of the general list, It won't roll over to aggro at all. Maybe he was playing a different list or a different version of stax.
And as we all know there is always the chance that the deck just craps out. It happens, and boy does it look terrible when it does.
Yeah, and yes, singleton creatures with a sword can be rather problematic, luckily jitte is easier to hate on with s field.
Team <spectacular
Hello,
being a stax player myself and having an idea what geddon stax weak points are because it doesn't run STP or fast anti creature cards in it, i used that style to beat my opponent, having a gut feel during the tourny that im pretty sure geddon stax doesn't have any STP nor a draw engine i only casted 2 threats or have threats that could swing for 4 damage per turn.
@The Wes
maybe he dosen't have windborn muse but he had executed a magus + geddon combo plus trinishpere in play but i just played through it.
@f|i[p]
we regards to swarm aggro yes the deck could handle it, people who plays swarm aggro most likely is not familiar with a stax deck or doesn't have equips to boost damage. Thats why i specified in my example where ernham djinn or cacliderm type of creatures that could be easily casted on the 3rd turn
Well yes you need to delay them to get your lock parts online but having no tanglewire which could help in that category and zero draw engine and zero library manipulation your just depending on luck and the 4 offs of the cards which could be bad at times when that specific card has been casted already it will be just smokestack food.
The deck i used had zero counter magic, though on game 2 i had an excellent opening hand i dropped a 2nd turn exalted angel then lock the game for him casting geddon on my 3rd turn.
@The Wes
With regards to endless horizons what it does is it thins the deck so that you'll dont end up drawing more plains instead of a lock part. I know its kinda slow if only its casting cost where 2W it would be great.
____________________________________________________________
If only the deck could deal with:
1. "singleton creatures" .
2. achieve a fast soft lock or an efficient way in delaying the opponent.
3. draw engine
Before i switched to wildfire stax, i had conducted several tests for the white stax. And during those test phase i found out that maybe a 2 type stax build + your sideboard could work. 2 types meaning pre board your stax deck is designed to deal with aggro while when you use your SB cards the deck is now designed to combat combo decks.
humility for me is an excellent anti creature card combined with ghostly prison, you'll just laugh at your opponent paying 2cc mana so that his 1/1 token could attack.
A build im just thinking im not sure if its viable or could work is with the use of humility and enlightened tutor so could get your lock pieces faster. even without the other lock piece in your hand that 1/1 token could buy you alot of time to get your other lock pieces. but with that build your going to get screwed with combo and control decks thats why the SB list must be composed of cards that could change your deck maybe it will work.
I completely agree that it thins the deck. The problem with endless horizons is that it only thins the deck by maybe 7-8 cards max, is subject to you loosing all your plains, is rarely cast before turn 3 and used turn 4, and and negates your flagstones.
I wasn't just comment on him no having windborn, most don't, but your senario also had no prison effects, which is sad for a stax player but just happens sometimes. I do agree that singleton creatures can be a pain, Kor haven has been helping me some with them. I have to say though, that overall I have a winning record against both dragon and faerie stompy which usually rely on a singlton powerful creature and an equipment.
Overall I think I have a much harder time with landstill (recuring mass removal) and survival (damn you so many cards...). Those are the two decks that I always hate going up against.
Team <spectacular
I'll weigh in on 'weaknesses' since I've been working with this deck for quite a while. This is going to be a long one since I've got a lot to say on the topic...
Not running Swords to Plowshares is NOT a weakness in Stax. In fact, I will come right out and say that Swords in Stax is just plain bad. The reason for this is that Stax relies on 'virtual' card advantage. To explain further, the Stax player requires that each one of his cards negates more than 1 of his opponents. In the case of Swords, you will eliminate 1 creature for the cost of 1, 1CC card. By doing this, you weaken the Stax deck because you can either (A) not cast a Chalice at 1 or (B) cast Chalice at 1 and not cast your Swords. Chalice at 1 is a much stronger play. There are other instances of this that come up from time-to-time. Chalice at 1 is better than Enlightened Tutor. Pithing Needle is often better than Chalice at 1.
Playing against 'Swarm Aggro' is NOT a weakness in Stax. (I will use my experience with Goblins as an example since it is probably still one of the top 'swarm'-style decks.) I do not mean to sound ignorant, but, if you are having issues with Aggro, it is because you do not understand the match-up. Ghostly Prison is a strong card against aggro, but it is not the key card. As erbs points out, it's almost comical watching some opponents pay 2 to deal 1 damage (I often ask if they play Flare, too - for the draw), though, there are times when it is worth it (i.e. Lackey). If the Goblins player pays 2 to hit you with a Lackey and tosses out Siege-Gang, you're in trouble because they now have an alternative path to victory. This is why you will find (after hours and hours of testing) that Magus of the Tabernacle is the real key against most good Aggro decks. Magus (and Tabernacle land) ties up their mana and blocks (not the land obviously - which is why I don't recommend playing it), which is the real benefit. Yes, sometimes you will get hit with a massive Piledriver, but it's because you'll get to block a Lackey or a Warchief or a Siege-Gang, whichever will hurt their position the most. Honestly, if you're not comfortable playing a deck that stabilizes at less than 5 life sometimes, Stax is probably not for you. Where Stax really shines is when you combine Prison with Tabernacle, either with Armageddon, or all three together. This is because you now get that 'virtual' card advantage. Prison + Magus = Opponent with permanents that do nothing. Prison + Armageddon = Opponent with permanents that can't attack. Magus + Armageddon = Opponent with not so many permanents. Prison + Magus + Armageddon = Very frustrated aggro opponent. That, my friend, is synergy.
The 'Lone Wolf' strategy IS often a problem for Stax. In pre-'Goyf Legacy, the worst play this deck could see was Swamp, Ritual, Negator. This opening put you on a 4 turn clock to find at least 2 puzzle pieces (I say 2 because even a Magus alone didn't really stop this since they would just kill it before the attack without a Chalice/Trinisphere for protection). In the post-'Goyf era, a turn 2 'Goyf is one of the worst things you can see. But understanding WHY this is a problem is something that is often lost on the average Stax player. WHY is it a problem? Because the deck's strategy is to look for 'virtual' card advantage, and to specifically NOT deal with a single threat. The question becomes, then, how do you deal with a single threat? You must try to choose a card that does NOT defeat your overall strategy, but answers the 'problem'. Engineered Explosives is a solid option as it can be adapted to remove a single threat or it can blow up several 'problems'. Powder Keg has the same ability. Recently, Oblivion Ring has gained some favor because it is 'faster' at dealing with higher CC problems (i.e. Tombstalker, Deed, Disk, Crucible, etc.). Identifying that Stax is simply NOT designed to deal with this, though, is the most important first step.
Not having a draw engine is NOT a weakness of Stax. I have listened to this argument for months. I have even tested everything from Bottled Cloister to Sylvan Library to Conch Horn (look it up, I'll wait) trying to find something, anything that would fill that void. The bottom line is... if you can't handle playing a deck that requires you to draw and say go quickly so that you can finish games in time, Stax is probably not for you. Stax wins on the back of inevitability. It is within my opponents rights NOT to concede, even when I have Chalice at 1, Trinisphere, Crucible, Smokestack at 1, and 6 lands to their empty board. I will eventually find a Factory or Magus and kill them. All a draw engine does is find it faster. If I'm not is such a dominant position, most of the 'recommended' draw engines either potentially slow you down or are flat out horrid in already bad-to-poor match-ups. In my opinion, speeding up the inevitable is a waste of time and giving up against bad match-ups in order to make good ones better is counter-intuitive. And, yes, sometimes you just have to know when to scoop to a poor draw or an opponent who draws the nuts.
@ erbs
To recap your points - The deck can handle singleton creatures - if it is designed that way. The deck should create a soft lock that slows down the opponent until the knock-out punch comes down - sometimes it doesn't and you just have to deal with the occasional game loss (remember a ~55% win percentage still means you lose 10 out of 22 games). A draw engine is entirely unecessary.
Endless Horizons is crap. I would rather thin my deck of Plains through a Smokestack/Crucible/Flagstones than with a 4cc enchantment that does NOTHING to my opponent. With Endless Horizons, you can't play Flagstones since they are un-removable and can't find a Plains after you've played Horizons which will ultimately weaken Armageddon (through the same effect) and strengthen your opponents Krosan Grips (etc.) which DO get played. This card has no place in this deck.
Humility is a nice thought. But, if you are playing in an environment/meta where you want to play Humility... play a different deck. Turning Magus, or Angel if you play her, into a 1/1 with no abilities is a waste. I tested Humility during Flash Prix and it worked to stop Hulk, but ultimately the rest of your deck is better than Humility.
Enlightened Tutor is, in general, bad. I have more recently been tinkering with lists that MD or sideboard it as a 1-of to give a more adaptable deck. I haven't made it work yet and I haven't seen a really 'good' list that utilizes it - yet.
I have also tried the maindeck-sideboard set-up switcheroo (switching from anti-aggro to anti-combo or anti-control). It's an approach is all I'll say. It's definitely a valid way to set up your deck. For me, I got sick of losing game 1s constantly because you 'guessed' wrong on how to set up the deck. I found that it was best to balance the maindeck and 'strengthen' your position out of the sideboard.
I appreciate your comments, but you are little off on your assessment of Stax' weaknesses based on my experiences. I, by no means, would try and tell someone that Stax doesn't have weaknesses because Stax has them just like other decks.
Just my thoughts...
-FB...
(god I make long posts)
QFT. And what's worse: they make sense, so I have to read
Anyway, thanks Fred, it's all true, but you've all said that before:
No offense, but ever since erbs has posted here about Endless Horizons, he has been making points we have talked and argued about 10 pages ago, and it goes back to probably page 5-ish. It's all old discussion and frankly, I don't feel we should head back. We've been there and done it, no need to talk about it all again.
I can only urge new people to this thread to read a bit into the history of it. I know it's alot, but just browse the keywords. In fact, there's a little summary of alot of stuff here (just press the blue thing):
It basically covers most findings up to Shards of Alara (Eventide has proven to be shit). After Shards I might make another update there.
Besides the fact that no-one uses Ernham Djinn or Calciderms, Oblivion Ring doesn't deal with Calciderm
You should really read the thread
One more thing:
While this is alot of fun, there has been recent discussion as to why an early Exalted Angel isn't always good, you might want to check it out. The "Angel discussion" started somewhere around here (just press the blue thing...again):
So please, update yourself and give us your inputThis has been spoiled:
WotC creates a new Angel to try and give WhiteStax some love...
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
Endless horizons would simply suck in the deck.It wouldn't be able to provide you anything that would help geddon stax against its bad match ups.
Humility although a strong card, it would just make our slow clock, slower having to rely on man lands. As for me wrath of god on the sideboard has worked wonders for a more aggro metagame.
As for badmatchups, I still have landstill and rock variants as the decks top problem.
Battlegrace angel is on my top list to test for the 2 slots free I have in my deck. I think the angel would suffice,but elspeth may warrant some testing as well.
@Fred Bear
Thanks for the insightful thoughts with regards to stax. True that stax is a deck that relies on card advantage rather than 1 is to 1 trade.
Have you tried playing a legacy red stax that runs wildfire ?
@Skeggi
Sorry i haven't read the earlier posts with regards to endless horizons..
Yes i guess endless horizons wouldn't fit in this deck.
@f|i[p]
Battlegrace Angel just guessing is a slightly better version of Exalted Angel in terms of cc but dies in 4/4 types of creatures with the likes of Jotun Grunt, etc
If only dawn elemental was a 5/3 creature i guess he could be a nice fit as finisher thats hard to kill, i do hope wizzard gives a white creature thats hard to kill, has an effcient cc, and around 4/4 or 4/5 range
Battlegrace < than Exalted, imo. For one, Stax doesn't always reach five mana that fast, even with all the accel. Magus, Armageddon and Smokestack all can see to that, and that's not even taking your opponent's actions into account.
You also can't put pressure on your opponent as soon as with Exalted. Sometimes you will have to keep a hand with no relevant t2 action besides a morph psot-t1-Chalice - it's not a very strong play but one the opponent has to answer nonetheless. You can play Exalted as an echo creature, attacking a turn earlier for two additional mana (and part of that cost can be paid for with a land that Smokestack is eating). And perhaps most importantly, I can't count the games in which I was happy for being able to play it as a simple 2/2 even lategame without having to choose between keeping Smokestack on board and casting an attacker.
As for other creatures, all kinds of those have been tried, from Calciderm to Mindcensor. They have merit but in the end, what's ideal for Stax is a creature that makes its lock pieces stronger (all the currently accepted creatures fit the bill). Calciderm doesn't. Mindcensor does in certain metagames, Exalted Angel in most. Battlegrace doesn't until after the turn it's cast because it can't be used defensively as efficiently as Exalted.
The most I'm personally prepared to pay for a creature in Stax is 2WW (per turn) unless it's so powerful that it'd necessitate a new build.
Btw, has Ethersworn Canonist been considered (as a sideboard card against combo or any other capacity)?
I have given it some thought and have come to the conclusion that you probably can't cast it T1 often enough and T2 Trinisphere will do. It can screw with other strategies than combo, though probably not as well as the options already available.
Still, I'd like to hear your thoughts.
Just to state a few things out about the new planeswalker. If you feel like playing it, it might be wise to think about playing moat or any other random permanent that states you can't be attacked.
If you don't you will have to wait untill you opponent has no creatures (or 1 non-trampler)whatsoever untill you can drop it. If you rush it in play anyhow this is how the situation might look like: in the declare attacker step your opponent pays 4 to attack you with 2 creatures (piledrivers??) and rushes the rest to your planeswalker, tbh I don't like the sound of that but it could me just me.
My best geuss is that the planeswalker is good but it will be only functional if you either have a hardlock (in with case you basicly won already) or if you just woggeddoned away thier creatures which is a damn godo positio to be in anyway
REgarding the cannonist, rejected we don't play rule of law which is better (less easy to hate for example) and can be played during the same turn
Level 1 DCI Judge
Are you trying to piss me off? I just made a whole point about reading the fucking thread.
This post doesn't cover alot about the card, but read back and you'll find quite a discussion about it.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
You'll have to forgive Skeggi, I think his aunt flo may be visiting ()...
I have played Wildfire Stax, but I frankly didn't like it as much as 'Geddon Stax. Wildfire at 6 just seemed a little slow for the effect (Geddon gets all lands for 4). I also tried several of the Red/Green Stax configurations (I really wish Welder was good in Legacy or Uba Stax in general for that matter), but ultimately kept coming back to White because Armageddon is so good. I'm not at all saying it's a bad deck, I just prefer White Stax.
Battlegrace Angel will turn out to be a flop (at least that's my prediction). She will probably prove to be worse than Exalted both because a 7 mana investment over 2 turns is easier on Stax' manabase (there really is a huge difference between WW2 and WW3 - I'd go to cc6 before I rule out finishers, personally) and Exalted can gain you life blocking. Stax really wants either an indestructible creature (Konda is too slow, I've tried) or something that recurs (Chronosavant is too slow, too, though it's pretty mean with a ramped Smokestack - i.e. return to play ramp Smokestack to 2). Until they print something to fill that void, Mishra's Factory is about as good as it gets and I'll stick to the Factory and Magus until something better floats along (I do often stick a 1- or 2- of creature into the deck if I expect a lot of Extirpate and I also board creatures).
Ethersworn Canonist is another one that I don't like for this deck (at least not in the main). It's a cheaper Rule of Law that winds up being more fragile. I wouldn't disagree with using it in the sideboard, but I've sided COP: Green before, so some people might just think I'm a little off when it comes to sideboarding.
I understand Deathscythe's comments about the Plainswalker, but... (A) give us a little credit for playskill - I don't think anyone here is going to drop this guy on an empty board thinking they are going to eventually gain an 'indestructible' board and (B) I don't think he's automatically 'win-more'. What I really like about the card, is that he can act as both a stall AND a win (I always like 'utility' cards in Stax). You can use Elspeth to simply buy you a couple of turns while you set up a full lock (he provides his own speedbumps) or you can play him out and attack with 5/9 flying Tabernacles. There will be times when he is win-more (same can be said for Angel) and there will be times when he is vulnerable (same can be said for Angel). The nice thing (on paper anyhow) is that Elspeth has the ability to affect the board without you making any decisions (or mistakes
-FB...
I apologize for cluttering the thread with a question that has been already debated. It would have been immensely helpful if the thread search for "Canonist" had shown more than three posts (of which mine is the oldest), as I don't have the time to scan every thread I post on for pictures or misspellings at this time.
@ white Planeswalker:
Producing a 1/1 each turn is good with Smokestack but as a win condition, it's rather lackluster. It could also alleviate the "one creature problem" provided the opponent doesn't have evasion. In that case, it goes online even earlier than Exalted.
Chumping is all it does in such a situation, though. It's kind of awkward in attack mode.
It also assumes that you have stopped your opponent from attacking with more than one creature, else the Walker will be dead very soon.
It's almost worthless if you have Tabernacle/Magus but not Smokestack. Considering many cards and the whole deck concept already have tremendous synergy with Smokestack, I don't think it needs another way to keep it online.
The indestructibility effect comes online when you should've stabilized already. All I can see it do is Elspeth being followed by Geddon, a build-up-again phase, then indestructibility and Geddon again. Seems unreliable.
I'll try this again with the Planeswalker...
The power of the Planeswalker is that he can be used in numerous ways. He can play as a lock piece and provide Smokestack fodder (ability 1). He can play as a distraction and draw resources away from my opponent's primary goal (winning the game/match) (ability 1 and the threat of ability 3 - which the FAQ clarifies is a continuous effect from the point of activation until the end of the game including artifacts/lands/creatures/enchantments played after the activation). And Elspeth can play as a win condition by pumping existing creatures or creating one and then pumping it (ability 2 and maybe ability 1).
You're right, winning with an army of 1/1s would be a waste and other cards could be just as easily used as the win condition in that case, but being able to create a 1/1 (again and again if it gets killed/sacrificed) and then being able to attack for a few turns with a 4/4 flyer (all building loyalty counters with the inherent threat of an indestructible board) is pretty sweet for the cost of 1, 4cc card.
I really can't encourage folks playing and testing this deck to take lots of notes about the situations that arise during games. I have always found that you wind up in a suprising number of situations where you are 1 'card' off and having a way to buy you even 1 or 2 turns would be amazing. After going through a lot of my notes, if I substitute the Planeswalker into my hand in a lot of those situations - it has the potential to change the outcome.
I'm not saying that it is the 'best'. I'm not even saying its an 'auto-include'. I'm just saying that on paper - this is one of the top candidates for this deck from Shards.
-FB...
I don't think we should dismiss elspeth,the cannonist or the angel without really testing them.
I will be running 3 exalted angel and 2 battlegrace angels in my testing. There were times where I had exalted in hand and didnt want to put them down as a 2/2 creature. Waiting for 6 mana can hurt, while battlgrace may get down sooner in those situations and may even be gaining you life as soon as she is down with magus and factory in play.
Don't dismiss anything you haven't really tested.
With 2 slots open in my deck, It will be either battlegrace, elspeth or back to old Oblivion ring.
Dispelling elspeth would be wrong, I've been tseting the walker for three straight days now and I must say that I like it. If you don't draw it, continue your plan as usual, if you happen to draw it you have the ability to switch into a lot of diffent plans. With the slight side-effect that if your opponent doesn't find an awnser soon enough things could get really messy for them. The +3/+3 flyer effect has been most usefull untill now, this is also due to the fact that I run moats
I'm going to test elspeth on the 4th on a legacy tournament, assuming I can get my hands on 2 of them by that time and drop a result over here
Level 1 DCI Judge
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