[Discussion] Melting Pot For Thoughts On Extirpate

[The Rack]

Extirpate isn't always card disadvantage you know. Coupled with a a few discard cards and a little luck you can get cards out of their hand. If you're running THoughtseize it's not that crazy to think that you'll have a discard and extirpate when they have 2 cards in hand. It doesn't sound like it would come up often but it's not unthinkable. Just a little more info to add.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Holy crap, a card's that marginally powerful in conjunction with other cards + luck????!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!??!??!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!??!?!?!?!?!? (etc.)

Again, why is this card better than Fiery Gambit? Or, y'know what, Hatching Plans? Shit. Why aren't we playing Vial Horror when we're at it?

Extirpate has no effect til the mid-to-late game in most instances, where it's marginally useful most of the time. It's usually worse than either Cranial Extraction or Haunting Echoes by a very wide margin against most decks.

[Artowis]

Times Extirpate is Just Better (tm) than whatever other option you'd of run - When you absolutely need to get rid of Life from the Loam and you know the opp. has infinity counters.

Then again Crypt and Leyline both come down turn 0/1... hm.

Times when Extirpate is Just Worse Baby! - The rest of the time, outside of absurd corner cases which I'm sure you've already been popping out shoulder joints making reaches toward.

In conclusion: Fuck Extirpate. Card is absurdly overrated.

[mercenarybdu]

Extirpate allows you to kill 4 copies of any card hit by it and assures that they don't come back for the rest of the game unless the enemy has something to wish it back.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Phyrexian Splicer allows you to pay two mana and tap it to remove flying, first strike, shadow or trample from a creature and give it to another creature.


mercenarybdu thinks Extirpate is good. QED, we win. The card is henceforth banned from good decks under penalty of torture.

[Adan]

Phyrexian Splicer allows you to pay two mana and tap it to remove flying, first strike, shadow or trample from a creature and give it to another creature.

mercenarybdu thinks Extirpate is good. QED, we win. The card is henceforth banned from good decks under penalty of torture.

The last 3 "arguments" of you consisted of compairisons with crap cards, not why Extirpate itself is supposed to suck, Mr. Politician. Just by the way.

I'm not saying that Extirpate is a broken card or such, but it is still a useful card that helps you to cut some of the opponent's resources and solutions.

Against UGw Thresh for example, extirpating Tarmogoyfs or Swords to Plowshares are huge. Extirpating Goyfs against ITF is also good. Or Explosives (and no, that Extirpates are well broadcast should not be an argument since that is a point that varies from player to player).

Against Loam it is without a question a house since it handes Loam without the possibility to save it with a cycle land thanks to split second.

Against Ichorid it might not be that good simply because there are too many targets, but it's still useful to get rid of all the Moebas and Ichorids.

[Repetitions are meant as a stylistic device to emphasize how versatile that card is]

Extirpate can actually fulfill many purposes. When you extirpate Wasteland or Geddons from Stax for example, your manabase is save (if they don't run Ravages of War, tho). Same is true for decks that only run a playset of a single removalspell (i.e. Swords to Plowsahres): When you extirpate them, you will have the advantage as your creatures are all safe.

It was also the reason why DiF retained the black-splash in his UWb Landstill because Extirpate is against control-mirrors very good since it reduces the opponent's resources/outs/winconditions and therefore generate virtual cardadvantage because you know that a player can't use a certain card against you anymore.

[Artowis]

When you extirpate Wasteland or Geddons from Stax for example, your manabase is safe

Wait, what? If you Extirpate one, wouldn't that still leave the copies of every other mana-denial spell in the deck to deal with? Even in your example you list two things that wreck your mana base. Stripping one from the deck doesn't remove the other!

Against UGw Thresh for example, extirpating Tarmogoyfs or Swords to Plowshares are huge. Extirpating Goyfs against ITF is also good. Or Explosives (and no, that Extirpates are well broadcast should not be an argument since that is a point that varies from player to player).

Why? Nobody ever says why this is in fact a big deal. Exirpating something like Goyf or Plow assumes the opponent was going to see another one to begin with. Even if we concede that as an eventuality, it raises the question of why aren't you playing something that just deals with the cards themselves? And also why is removing a set of good cards from the opp's deck worth a card of your own? Cards like Chalice of the Void or combos like Counterbalance - Top are good specifically because it shuts down a large portion of the opponent's deck. Even pinpoint removal of cards in deck usually come with some bonus (cranial doesn't need you to do extra work, Meddling Mage comes with a body, etc.).

[MasterC]

Why? Nobody ever says why this is in fact a big deal. Exirpating something like Goyf or Plow assumes the opponent was going to see another one to begin with.

Why does everybody ignore the fact that NQG will VERY likely draw into multiples of a card it needs until midgame with all that brainstorms, ponders, tops + fetchlands and predicts.

Even if we concede that as an eventuality, it raises the question of why aren't you playing something that just deals with the cards themselves?

Because it can't be countered and because your chance to draw your extirpate replacing removal is smaller than the chance of NQG drawing their relevant cards. (because of their cantrips!). You need 1 removal and 1 extirpate to virtually handle 4 goyfs.

[URABAHN]

If Extirpate is so good, why aren't more people running it and winning with it?

It's funny how people speak about the card disadvantage that Extirpate supposedly brings.

Yet, I still see people place Force of Will. Perhaps card advantage isn't the only fact to consider when rating a card?

Are you seriously comparing Force of Will to Extirpate?

[diffy]

If Extirpate is so good, why aren't more people running it and winning with it?

Just a quick check using Deckcheck.net:

$1k Legacy Binghamton 09/08: (5 decks with Black)

• Smelski, 5th: 3 Extirpate
• Quackenbush, 8th: 3 Extirpate

Legacy Finale Emilia 09/08: (2 decks with Black)

• Buso, 5th: 4 Extirpate

Magic-League Legacy Trial 30.09.: (5 decks with Black)

• Pikanso_BRA, 2nd: 3 Extirpate
• Lumbalgic, 4th: 3 Extirpate

Legacy Italia Piacenza 09/08: (2 decks with Black)

• Carlo Pulvirenti, 3rd: 3 Extirpate

Liga Valenciana de Legacy #1 09/08: (3 decks with Black)

• Jorge Villagrasa, 3rd: 3 Extirpate
• Manuel Jesús Puchol, 5th: 3 Extirpate
• Hugo López, 7th: 4 Extirpate

GP Madrid Legacy Side Event: (4 decks with Black)

• Jose Manuel Martinez, 1st: 3 Extirpate
• David Garzon, 5th: 3 Extirpate
• Benito Hernandez, 6th: 2 Extirpate

Over the last 7 larger events, 21 Decks with Black top8ed. More than half of them (12) played on average 3.08 Extirpates.
Not too shabby in my opinion.

[Adan]

Just a quick check using Deckcheck.net:

[...]

Over the last 7 larger events, 21 Decks with Black top8ed. More than half of them (12) played on average 3.08 Extirpates.
Not too shabby in my opinion.

It's easier to see here:

http://www.deckcheck.net/format.php?format=Legacy

On the left side, "MVCs", click on the "View the Top30". There are also the Top10 of the most used Sideboard cards. All the Legacy decks recorded on deckcheck.net run a total of 1342 Extirpates.

I also remember back then when I tested Di's Survival, extirpating Swords to Plowshares against UWb Landstill and then dropping Gaddock Teeg was the sweetest thing you could do.

Wait, what? If you Extirpate one, wouldn't that still leave the copies of every other mana-denial spell in the deck to deal with? Even in your example you list two things that wreck your mana base. Stripping one from the deck doesn't remove the other!

I was talking about other decks as well which only run Wastelands as disruption.

[FoolofaTook]

It's funny how people speak about the card disadvantage that Extirpate supposedly brings.

Yet, I still see people place Force of Will. Perhaps card advantage isn't the only fact to consider when rating a card?

Force of Will is kind of unique in terms of what it brings to the table. It gives the player a security blanket against an early loss, that while often ineffective works often enough to make people see it as a necessary element in their defense strategy. If you're going to lose 5% of your games early on turn 1 or 2 and Force of Will stops half of those losses then you have a tangible benefit to hang your valuation of the card on.

The fact that Force of Will is a weak counter, compared to other harder counters, in mid-game doesn't really break the stranglehold that the potential early use of it creates on public opinion. The weakness in the midgame is of course from the extra card required to play it and the life it costs to play. Both weaknesses are significant for many control decks at that point in the game, however the fact that Force of Will is just strictly better on the first couple of turns in preventing losses makes control decks suck it up down the road and play an inferior counter. This is particularly true for decks that run 4 Force of Will and fewer than 4 Counterspells.

[URABAHN]

Looking up Extirpate on deckcheck shows me it's one of the most popular sideboard cards in Legacy in Europe. If Extirpate is as good as the advocates are telling everyone is it, wouldn't it be played in the maindeck? According to deckcheck, Extirpate is rarely seen in anyone's 75 card deck outside of Europe. Why is that?

[Hanni]

Looking up Extirpate on deckcheck shows me it's one of the most popular sideboard cards in Legacy in Europe. If Extirpate is as good as the advocates are telling everyone is it, wouldn't it be played in the maindeck? According to deckcheck, Extirpate is rarely seen in anyone's 75 card deck outside of Europe. Why is that?

Your statement is completely retarded. I don't see people maindecking Tormod's Crypt. Why is that?

[Adan]

Looking up Extirpate on deckcheck shows me it's one of the most popular sideboard cards in Legacy in Europe. If Extirpate is as good as the advocates are telling everyone is it, wouldn't it be played in the maindeck? According to deckcheck, Extirpate is rarely seen in anyone's 75 card deck outside of Europe.

Why is that?

It's Tunnel Vision and you are too fucking lazy to take a look by yourself. It's not difficult to klick on the "1342 Extirpate" and browse for non-European tournaments.

I also don't know what you are trying to accomplish with the SIDEBOARD-card argument. I never wanted to argue for maindecking it. This duscussion is about whether Extirpate is good or not.

Well, Geoff Smelski runs Extirpate in 5 of his 7 decks listed on deckcheck.net. Di is running at least 2 Extirpate in his SB in every of his Survival-builds (except in the stone-old ATS list).

Jared Lefkowitz ran 3 Extirpates twice of his 4 Top8 records with RGBSA.

Even the 4color Landstill of Tacosnape is running Extirpates:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18784

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=13211

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=9303

Tombstone does run Extirpate, too.

From what I have counted yet, you have been 17 times wrong. Tendency rising.

[Citrus-God]

Looking up Extirpate on deckcheck shows me it's one of the most popular sideboard cards in Legacy in Europe. If Extirpate is as good as the advocates are telling everyone is it, wouldn't it be played in the maindeck? According to deckcheck, Extirpate is rarely seen in anyone's 75 card deck outside of Europe. Why is that?

In the Midwest, it is covered in Extirpate. Michael Bearman runs 4 Extirpates in his SB and a majority of the time he Top 8's a Monster Den event. Pat McGregor Top 8's with 3-4 Extirpates in his board with Aggro Loam. Threshold lists run 3-4 Extirpates in their board. So far, this is true about Minnesota.

There's also Geoff Smelski who plays Extirpates frequently and always makes a top finish at big events.

[Omega]

"The fact that Force of Will is a weak counter, compared to other harder counters, in mid-game doesn't really break the stranglehold that the potential early use of it creates on public opinion. The weakness in the midgame is of course from the extra card required to play it and the life it costs to play. Both weaknesses are significant for many control decks at that point in the game, however the fact that Force of Will is just strictly better on the first couple of turns in preventing losses makes control decks suck it up down the road and play an inferior counter. This is particularly true for decks that run 4 Force of Will and fewer than 4 Counterspells."

FOW is stricly superior to any counterspell, both early, mid and late game. Card disadvantage/life is largely compensated by its free casting cost. Due to its free casting cost, aggro/control deck can easily play all-in while having some protection. Even decks like control keep force of will because they can win counterwars. Tap UU for countespell, opponent counter, you fow. FOW is just the best counterspell ever printed, period. Don't argue that

Back onto Extirpate, i am experiencing a newdeck that will play them MD. Its a sort of control deck. With the extirpate, im hoping to shut down some kill conditions of my opponent

Robert

[Drac]

For the most part i think extirpate is usually not that good of a sideboard card. but there is one exeption

Cunning Wish> extirpate can be absolutly good.

The 1 sideboard slot is totally 100% worth it.

I remember playing landstill. and i was paired versus alluren. she played intuition into alluren and i wish>pate GG.

Also in the control mirror it can shut down annoying recursion engines that else you couldnt have removed.

Also although loam has burning wish, the fact that you can grab it with cunning wish makes it usefull. and worth the 1 sideboard slot.

Im really wondering why nobody has mentioned cunning wish before. i did a CTR+F search on cunning wish in the topic, but i could have missed it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Your statement is completely retarded. I don't see people maindecking Tormod's Crypt. Why is that?

Tormod's Crypt is a nuke against graveyards. Extirpate is not.. It's usefulness is premised on the idea that it's flexible. Of course, Withered Wretch and Shred Memory are flexible graveyard hate cards, but they're not run in sideboards either. Why? Because you don't select sideboard cards to be flexible, but to be powerful for their given task.

"The fact that Force of Will is a weak counter, compared to other harder counters, in mid-game doesn't really break the stranglehold that the potential early use of it creates on public opinion. The weakness in the midgame is of course from the extra card required to play it and the life it costs to play. Both weaknesses are significant for many control decks at that point in the game, however the fact that Force of Will is just strictly better on the first couple of turns in preventing losses makes control decks suck it up down the road and play an inferior counter. This is particularly true for decks that run 4 Force of Will and fewer than 4 Counterspells."

FOW is stricly superior to any counterspell, both early, mid and late game. Card disadvantage/life is largely compensated by its free casting cost. Due to its free casting cost, aggro/control deck can easily play all-in while having some protection. Even decks like control keep force of will because they can win counterwars. Tap UU for countespell, opponent counter, you fow. FOW is just the best counterspell ever printed, period. Don't argue that

Back onto Extirpate, i am experiencing a newdeck that will play them MD. Its a sort of control deck. With the extirpate, im hoping to shut down some kill conditions of my opponent

Robert

Force is free and stops any card in the game. Extirpate is only useful in a few marginal situations. I'm sure you can distinguish the difference there yourself.

[Atwa]

Force is free and stops any card in the game.

Except Extirpate :) Oh the irony.