View Poll Results: In your opinion, Extirpate is a card that should be played (MD or SB)...

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  • ...by the vast majority of Black decks, the card is nuts

    9 4.95%
  • ...by many different decks

    29 15.93%
  • ...only by a very few decks that can take advantage of it

    110 60.44%
  • ...by nobody or pretty much nobody, the card sucks

    26 14.29%
  • I still don't have an opinion on the matter.

    8 4.40%
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Thread: [Discussion] Melting Pot For Thoughts On Extirpate

  1. #181
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    Re: [Discussion] Melting Pot For Thoughts On Extirpate

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil Credo View Post
    But what other cards do you suggest would have been better in those specific matches? Leyline, if deployed in time, would have made the big guys smaller, but you mention losing to your own fetchlands pumping 'Vore and Crusher's hand-fixing ability, neither of which is affected by Leyline; Crypt would not have done even that. Against Survival or Landstill, both would have been even less helpful.
    Welcome to my point. Extirpate is not going to get you out of a losing situation. In those examples, grave hate wasn't really going to do much at all. Which is what Extirpate is.

  2. #182

    Re: [Discussion] Melting Pot For Thoughts On Extirpate

    But in a neutral position or in a good position, Extirpate can come in handy by neutering a specific card.

    Robert

  3. #183
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    Re: [Discussion] Melting Pot For Thoughts On Extirpate

    No, it doesn't. For FSM's sake, I don't know any other way to say it...

    Extirpate does not actively remove another card from the picture, unless it is present in your opponents' hand. It can ONLY be as good as Cabal therapy against a non-Ichorid deck, because there is no way to calculate its usefulness based on a random topdeck.

  4. #184
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    Re: [Discussion] Melting Pot For Thoughts On Extirpate

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Welcome to my point. Extirpate is not going to get you out of a losing situation. In those examples, grave hate wasn't really going to do much at all. Which is what Extirpate is.
    Uh, that's closer to the backwards version. "In such and such instances where Extirpate didn't save me, no other hate card would have done so" is most definitely not a point against picking Extirpate for your GY hate.
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  5. #185
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    Re: [Discussion] Melting Pot For Thoughts On Extirpate

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil Credo View Post
    Uh, that's closer to the backwards version. "In such and such instances where Extirpate didn't save me, no other hate card would have done so" is most definitely not a point against picking Extirpate for your GY hate.
    Alright, fine. If you're really interested, Engineered Explosives would have been WAY better in every instance, because it actually effects the board, rather than doing almost nothing. Of course, most decks have more than one path to victory (and I say most, because unfortunately not all decks do), so its possible that I would have lost anyway, or lost to the cards I Extirpated. All I know is, it was never as good in practice as it seemed on paper. And since this game is not played on paper by comparing decklists, I'd rather have a card that can actually do something relevant.

  6. #186
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    Re: [Discussion] Melting Pot For Thoughts On Extirpate

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    No, it's not. For the same reason that Traumatize isn't card advantage. It seems like it should be, but it isn't, in practice.
    So Disenchanting my opponent's Jaydemae Tome isn't card advantage?

    I assert that that play (and Extirpating Loam), while not directly card advantage, ultimately will result in card advantage.

    The more options you have available to you the more likely you are to be presented with the best play. If your opponents aren't in a position to "Oops I win" you out, and they choose not to take advantage of their card advantage engines, they're awful players. As hard as it is to do, you should be playing as if your opponents aren't going to make mistakes.


    General Question

    If Extirpate is in your hand (forget for the time being whether or not you want it or Tormod's Crypt), and Life from the Loam is in your opponent's graveyard, do you A) Extirpate it or B) Not Extirpate it (because it isn't card advantage)?

  7. #187
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    Re: [Discussion] Melting Pot For Thoughts On Extirpate

    Quote Originally Posted by freakish777 View Post
    So Disenchanting my opponent's Jaydemae Tome isn't card advantage?
    No, it isn't. It's card Parity, at the very best. At worst, it's card disadvantage, because you've traded one card for their one, and they've already replaced it with another.

    I assert that that play (and Extirpating Loam), while not directly card advantage, ultimately will result in card advantage.
    1-1=0. Perhaps you should count again.

    The more options you have available to you the more likely you are to be presented with the best play. If your opponents aren't in a position to "Oops I win" you out, and they choose not to take advantage of their card advantage engines, they're awful players. As hard as it is to do, you should be playing as if your opponents aren't going to make mistakes.
    This has nothing to do with this discussion.


    General Question

    If Extirpate is in your hand (forget for the time being whether or not you want it or Tormod's Crypt), and Life from the Loam is in your opponent's graveyard, do you A) Extirpate it or B) Not Extirpate it (because it isn't card advantage)?
    I'm not playing Extirpate, so the question is moot.

  8. #188
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    Re: [Discussion] Melting Pot For Thoughts On Extirpate

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    It absolutely is. The people arguing that Extirpate is bad are trying to force you into seeing that in essence, yard hate is really all Extirpate is - outside of niche cases where it's situationally good. We're also trying to tell you that had you played other cards in its stead, you could probably have solved those situations anyway.
    It is not.

    The opening post shows us only 3 statements. 2 statements saying that Extirpate is bad: one of them without any argumentation and 1 with a stupid argumentation i.e. that Extirpate doesn't affect the board state. Neither does T.Crypt. Just by the way.

    Extirpate is not a pure graveyardhate but another tool to strip your opponent's solutions or winconditions which was also the reason why I boarded it in against mirrormatches when playing Threshold for example. Or playing against Threshold when playing Landstill. Stealing Goyfs is huge.

    When UWb Landstill did not play Vindicate, it was also good to Extirpate StoPs and then drop Gaddock Teeg ftw.

    And I still think a lot of people fail at arguing efficiently here.

    quicksilver's board-state argument is stupid because none of the GY hate card affect the board situation. Except Primal Command, lol.

    IBA is comparing Extirpate to dummy cards like... Unburden, Funeral Charm,

    Nightmare is comparing it to Coffin Purge/Cremate. I mean, wtf.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by freakish777 View Post
    General Question

    If Extirpate is in your hand (forget for the time being whether or not you want it or Tormod's Crypt), and Life from the Loam is in your opponent's graveyard, do you A) Extirpate it or B) Not Extirpate it (because it isn't card advantage)?
    I'm not playing Extirpate, so the question is moot.
    That's why you will lose against those decks because they can save their Life from the Loam with Cyclelands from Tormod's Crypt and therefore you won't be able to cut their resources.

    That's actually the terrible thing about the Loam-Engine: It can protect itself from any graveyardhate and recover by itself (via dredging lands back into the GY which they can throw to your head with Seismic Assault).

    Deep6er only said "it's fucking awful" without any justification.

    Artowis was imho the closest with his compairison to Meddling Mage since Extirpate is supposed to fulfill a similar role.

    This role became more important against Threshold for example. I could still rip my head off when people board Tormod's Crypt against Threshold. THAT's actually carddisadvantage in exchange to gain a little speed. It worked in the past where all the creatures were GY-dependant, but nowadays Extirpate is better against them since you can take their resources or to a degree rape their manabase in combination with Wastelands.

    Ah, by the way, please explain me why people made such a paranoia of Extirpate, starting to run Shockduals in addition to the original ones to prevent people raping them with a good timed Wasteland-Extirpate.

    This thread is so dumb.

    It's like "Abortion - yes or no?"

    Additionally this debate is drifting away from "Extirpate - Good or Not?" to "Extirpate vs. Tormod's Crypt" to "Cardadvantage - Carddisadvantage".
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  9. #189
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    Re: [Discussion] Melting Pot For Thoughts On Extirpate

    This has nothing to do with this discussion.
    Actually this has everything to do with the discussion.

    When your opponent plays Stroke of Genius with x = 3 on and you have Force of Will, you Force of Will it. Why? Because by not doing so you are losing the card advantage war against your opponent. Force is -1 CA in vacuum. Your opponent resolving Stroke there is -2 CA in vacuum. Forcing an opponent's Stroke (x=3) is +1 CA (+1 better than the net result if you didn't).

    Or do you not Force their Stroke of Genius (likely the optimal play) because you assume they're a scrub for playing with Stroke (and automatically makes the rest of their deck bad)?

    Do you "deal" with Loam or do you automatically assume they won't dredge it for card advantage against you because clearly they're horrible at Magic?

    Do you Disenchant the Jaydemae Tome or do you naturally assume that they won't activate it, because they're a bad player?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    No, it isn't. It's card Parity, at the very best. At worst, it's card disadvantage, because you've traded one card for their one, and they've already replaced it with another.

    1-1=0. Perhaps you should count again.
    Perhaps you shouldn't look at a cards in vacuum to do the math.

    Let's try this again. If you choose not to Disenchant the Jaydemae Tome, you're now (in the long run) guarenteeing card disadvantage. Your options are: Less Card Divadvantage (Disenchanting) or More Card Disadvantage (not Disenchanting). One of those options yields better net card advantage for you.

    Under the assumption card X generates n cards over m turns and card Y prevents o (o < n) of that card advantage from X, it is card advantage in comparison to the alternative.

    I don't care about a card's utility in vacuum. I care about utility in the scenarios I'm presented with during game play.


    I'm not playing Extirpate, so the question is moot.


    Not answering hypothetical questions can only hurt your own understanding.

  10. #190
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    Re: [Discussion] Melting Pot For Thoughts On Extirpate

    First of all, I plan to ignore Adan's post entirely, since he made sure to do the same to me. I'm not going to continue to cover the same ground over and over just to satisfy you.

    Quote Originally Posted by freakish777 View Post
    Actually this has everything to do with the discussion.

    When your opponent plays Stroke of Genius with x = 3 on and you have Force of Will, you Force of Will it. Why? Because by not doing so you are losing the card advantage war against your opponent. Force is -1 CA in vacuum. Your opponent resolving Stroke there is -2 CA in vacuum. Forcing an opponent's Stroke (x=3) is +1 CA (+1 better than the net result if you didn't).

    Or do you not Force their Stroke of Genius (likely the optimal play) because you assume they're a scrub for playing with Stroke?
    You've changed the topic. The quote above, which actually wasn't part of the discussion, had nothing to do with card advantage, and can be summed up as follows:
    Don't assume your opponent is a scrub.
    Thanks for the advice. Moving on.


    Perhaps you shouldn't look at a cards in vacuum to do the math.

    Let's try this again. If you choose not to Disenchant the Jaydemae Tome, you're now (in the long run) guarenteeing card disadvantage. Your options are: Less Card Divadvantage (Disenchanting) or More Card Disadvantage (not Disenchanting). One of those options yields better net card advantage for you.
    Emphasis mine. What did I say that was incorrect? Show me a single point that was wrong. You actually agree, but you're arguing semantics, which frankly, I don't give a shit about. Let's talk about how you're concerned about an opponent playing Jayemdae Tome.

    Under the assumption card X generates n cards over m turns and card Y preventing your opponent's card advantage, is card advantage in comparison to the alternative.
    Again, emphasis mine. You can't ask me if Disenchanting a Tome is CA, and then when I say no, suddenly change the question to COMPARATIVE CA. If you were a politician, sure, that's what you would do, but this isn't politics.

    I don't care about a card's utility in vacuum. I care about utility in the scenarios I'm presented with during game play.
    And yet you're on the PRO-Extirpate side? Anyone else confused?

    Not answering hypothetical questions can only hurt your own understanding.
    It's not my understanding that needs challenging.

  11. #191

    Re: [Discussion] Melting Pot For Thoughts On Extirpate

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    I'm not playing Extirpate, so the question is moot.
    Are you suggesting that you know for a fact that Extirpate is unplayable?

    Sticking your head in the sand and claiming that there is enough water in the middle of Death Valley doesn't make you correct.

  12. #192
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    Re: [Discussion] Melting Pot For Thoughts On Extirpate

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoFireheart View Post
    Are you suggesting that you know for a fact that Extirpate is unplayable?
    Not at all. I've said, even on this page, that I don't really give a shit whether you play Extirpate or not. I am, however, willing to share in my experience, which has lead me to believe that there are very, very few decks that should be running Extirpate as either a MD or SB card, when they could be running other cards that perform better in actual game play. So few, in fact, that I can't think of any off the top of my head, but I'd rather not speak in absolutes so pundits can think they've "trapped me" in an argument I can't get out of.

  13. #193

    Re: [Discussion] Melting Pot For Thoughts On Extirpate

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Not at all. I've said, even on this page, that I don't really give a shit whether you play Extirpate or not.

    I wasn't asking if you cared that we played Extirpate or not.


    I am, however, willing to share in my experience, which has lead me to believe that there are very, very few decks that should be running Extirpate as either a MD or SB card, when they could be running other cards that perform better in actual game play.
    So you do think it is unplayable?

    EX: I have a burn deck. I need four more cards, and the last four slots are to be filled with either Lightning Bolt or Shock.

    Shock is obviously unplayable because it is inferior to Lightning Bolt.



    So few, in fact, that I can't think of any off the top of my head, but I'd rather not speak in absolutes so pundits can think they've "trapped me" in an argument I can't get out of.
    What decks WOULD benefit from Extirpate?

  14. #194
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    Re: [Discussion] Melting Pot For Thoughts On Extirpate

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoFireheart View Post
    Sticking your head in the sand and claiming that there is enough water in the middle of Death Valley doesn't make you correct.
    And I could get a good look at a new york strip by sticking my head up the cow's ass, but I'd rather take the butcher's word for it.
    they haunt minds...

  15. #195
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    Re: [Discussion] Melting Pot For Thoughts On Extirpate

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoFireheart View Post
    So you do think it is unplayable?

    What decks WOULD benefit from Extirpate?
    Why are you asking me these ridiculous questions?

  16. #196

    Re: [Discussion] Melting Pot For Thoughts On Extirpate

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    No, it isn't. It's card Parity, at the very best. At worst, it's card disadvantage, because you've traded one card for their one, and they've already replaced it with another.
    I'm sorry but this feels very shaky. If t's card disadvantage because you've traded one for one that they already replaced, then it's still CA neutral compared to the situation where it's next turn and you didn't naturalize it.
    Or, CA+1 compared to the situation 2 turns later.

    I agree there would be no sense in continuing comparing situations that are more turns away from one another than is the case here (well, depends on the matchup), but one or two turns away is still pretty tangible.

    It's not absolute CA, but who gives a damn absolute (except for vodka) ? It's like saying that responding to Ancestral Recall with your own Ancestral Recall is bad because it's CA neutral.

  17. #197

    Re: [Discussion] Melting Pot For Thoughts On Extirpate

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Why are you asking me these ridiculous questions?


    I am, however, willing to share in my experience, which has lead me to believe that there are very, very few decks that should be running Extirpate as either a MD or SB card, when they could be running other cards that perform better in actual game play.


  18. #198
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    Re: [Discussion] Melting Pot For Thoughts On Extirpate

    Quote Originally Posted by ParkerLewis View Post
    I'm sorry but this feels very shaky. If t's card disadvantage because you've traded one for one that they already replaced, then it's still CA neutral compared to the situation where it's next turn and you didn't naturalize it.
    Or, CA+1 compared to the situation 2 turns later.

    I agree there would be no sense in continuing comparing situations that are more turns away from one another than is the case here (well, depends on the matchup), but one or two turns away is still pretty tangible.

    It's not absolute CA, but who gives a damn absolute (except for vodka) ? It's like saying that responding to Ancestral Recall with your own Ancestral Recall is bad because it's CA neutral.
    You're comparing apples to oranges.

    Freakish - would you agree that disenchanting a Jayemdae is card advantage?
    Me - No, it's card parity at best.
    Everyone - WOW YOURE A NOOB. WHAT ABOUT ALL THE FUTURE DRAWS?

    The answer is - Who cares? You've already nuked the tome. Those future draws aren't going to happen anymore, and you've created parity by killing the tome.

  19. #199
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    Re: [Discussion] Melting Pot For Thoughts On Extirpate

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoFireheart View Post
    So... since I've already answered your question, mine still stands?? I've made my opinion on the card pretty clear. Why don't you read the thread?

  20. #200
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    Re: [Discussion] Melting Pot For Thoughts On Extirpate

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    First of all, I plan to ignore Adan's post entirely, since he made sure to do the same to me. I'm not going to continue to cover the same ground over and over just to satisfy you.
    That's fascism aka Nazi-technique (tm), YOU don't have the right to do that.

    Well, as lon as I don't see a plausible argumentation why Extirpate is really a bad card I won't care. Me and a lot of users before have given you scenarios where Extirpate makes indeed sense.

    And you were replying with "I don't run Extirpate, I don't care". Good point!

    Again: Extirpate is there to handle things you could not otherwise. It works - and that's why Artowis was still close - like Meddling Mage. That's why taking opponent's solutions or winconditions indeed makes sense.

    By the way, I raped ITF this afternoon with UGb tempo-Thresh by wasting his Tropical Island and then extirpating it. he could not play his Life, his Goyfs, his Witness and Etched Oracle was also diabled from that moment on.

    Sure, this is an example where Extirpate is good in combination with other cards, but Tormod's Crypt won't ever be able to do such things.
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