[Deck] Dragon Stompy

[Arsenal]

I think I'm going to replace Tormod's with Relic in all my decks that currently run Tormod's. Is there any good reason to play Tormod's anymore?

@ Rinello

I only count 24 threats, and 4 of those, Simian Spirit Guide, will most likely be used as mana fodder, and who knows what you'll be imprinting on a Chrome Mox, so it's closer to 20-22 threats in actual testing.

20-22 threats is still enough for 4x Jittes, but half of those threats are already beefy by themselves (hellbent Raiders & Pit-Dragon, and Slogger). I think 4x Jitte is slightly overkill unless your meta is critter dominant.

[Tacosnape]

Arsenal's list versus Rinello's maindeck list is strictly metagame. Although I will say that the problem with quad Jitte is that on occasion one's going to clog up your hand and mess with Hellbent, despite having Gathan Raiders around to pitch one to. Excess Blood Moons can not only pitch to Gathan Raiders, they can imprint on Chrome Mox, or just flat out be hardcast.

For the record, I run an identical list to Arsenal with Pyrokinesis over Pyroclasm in the sideboard.

I think I'm going to replace Tormod's with Relic in all my decks that currently run Tormod's. Is there any good reason to play Tormod's anymore?

Tormod's comes in under Chalice for 1. Tormod's also doesn't require you leave a mana open to detonate in full force. Relic's extent of awesomeness is that it owns Tarmogoyf, but you ironically shouldn't be boarding in yard hate against anything that runs Tarmogoyf anyway. And Dragon Stompy is not a deck that ever wants to leave mana open. Ever. Stick with Crypt. Free spells are insanely underrated in Legacy. Which is why I run both Crypt and Kinesis over their alternatives.

[Arsenal]

Taco, how do you typically SB versus the various archetypes you run across?

[Tacosnape]

Taco, how do you typically SB versus the various archetypes you run across?

There's probably too many matchups to list, especially with variants of decks changing things. I'll offer some basics though. For frame of reference, here's my list.

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

4 Arc-Slogger
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Taurean Mauler

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
2 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Trinisphere
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I'm not going to give exact lists of what to board out, as it varies heavily on the build and whether you're going first or second on the upcoming game. I will give you ideas of what you want in and what your plan is, though.

Goblins: You want Pyrokinesis and Jitte. This will almost always involve a -4/+4 swap for the Blood Moons. Needle can stop Vial, Fanatic, Siege Gang, etc, but even on the draw it's questionable that it's better than Chalice. Try it if you want Vial out of the picture.

Threshold: You want Trinispheres. You -don't- want Crypts. Don't fret Tarmogoyfs. Make your cuts based on how useful Blood Moon is against the build you're playing.

Survival: While there's six billion builds of this, the universal constant is that you want Pithing Needle. Don't be afraid to keep Chalice in on top of it, either. Pyrokinesis and Blood Moon's importance varies on the opponents' build. You don't want Crypt or Trinisphere.

Landstill: The only real constant is that you don't want Umezawa's Jitte here, so cut it. Consider Needle if you're facing Deeds. Consider Trinisphere if they're running a build that automatically scoops to a resolved Moon under any circumstances. Depending on their builds, you may consider cutting cards to manage Needles or Trinispheres 3-4. SSG is a decent cut if you need more Needle, as it's the only guy who can't swing through a factory ever. If you want to try and win the power Moon route via Trinispheres, Mauler's your better cut as you'll want your SSG's for speed.

Painter: Regardless of whether it's Epic or Imperial, Needle Grindstone and Pyrokinesis the shit out of a Servant, as blasts can wreck your day. Don't be afraid to drop Chal-1 on top of a Needle, but an early Chal-2 is also solid. Be careful about overboarding against Epic lest their Goyf/Stalker plan ruin your day. Don't ever cut Sloggers here, as they shine against both builds, picking off small red nuisances or Confidants.

Ichorid: Crypts are good and replace Jittes. Trinispheres can be but probably aren't, as all they deal with that a Moon doesn't is Cabal Therapy flashbacks. Needles and Pyrokinesis both have their moments, but you'll be hard pressed to find slots for them. Consider Kinesis over Chalice if you're going second.

I'll post more later if anyone has specific matchup questions.

[Al-ucard]

what do you think about this list?

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20145

One point I never liked of this deck is the fact that I have too bad luck and I never draw enough lands, maybe this is a good list to start with and make a more stable version...

Thoughts?

[Tacosnape]

what do you think about this list?

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20145

One point I never liked of this deck is the fact that I have too bad luck and I never draw enough lands, maybe this is a good list to start with and make a more stable version...

Thoughts?

That's awful. I may never be able to get an erection again thanks to that decklist.

Chrome Mox -and- Mox Diamond is an awful idea. The creature selection is awful. The triple and quintuple red mana symbols is awful. Awful.

If you want to draw more land, just cut a Mauler or a Moon or a Jitte for an extra land or something. There's no need to make the deck a pile.

[NecroYawgmoth]

...and so Taco don't plays 4 Pyrokinesis anymore...

I have a huge problem with LS-Decks 2-4 colored...
They are Omni, they kill me all the time, ...any tips/suggestions what I could do??

Maybe playing Demonfire or something???

YawG

[Zork]

Landstill has a harder time dealing with Sulfur Elemental than Maulers (if you play Mauler), and one of the best threats possible against landstill is rAkroma. 2 should do it if you have a really heavy LS meta, but don't play any more than that since it is not as strong against other decks. Also a note: if you are playing Sulfur's and rAkroma, consider adding a sword or two to the usual compliment of jitte's.

Demonfire is a possability, but it is less good aginst non-landstill decks that rAkroma.

[Arsenal]

I used to be an advocate for Sulfur > Mauler, but through testing, I've come to realize Sulfur's advantages over Mauler are quite narrow whereas Mauler's growing strength is just a ticking time bomb your opponent, no matter what he's playing, MUST answer.

EDIT: I agree that Sulfur may shine in certain matchups, but overall, I know prefer Mauler in a blind meta.

[Joe_C]

what do you think about this list?

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20145

One point I never liked of this deck is the fact that I have too bad luck and I never draw enough lands, maybe this is a good list to start with and make a more stable version...

Thoughts?

this looks terrible, I 2nd Taco's comments on this. Running even more mana intensive cards than the standard lists seems outlandish.

I have not had problems drawing lands, I have had problems drawing no colored sources in my opening hand(which seems weird right(?) we have 18 ways to produce red on turn 1 and i get hands with tomb, tomb, city etc...), or drawing multiple lands when I really need a threat off the top of my deck.

Wrath of god purely owns this deck. Unless you can man up the board again quickly they cast wrath=you lose. I have been toying with null brooch, man if it was a 3cc card it would totally be BOSS in this deck, but at 4 mana, it has not tested as well as I hope. I might take it for a run at my next tourney, maybe it will surprise me and perform

[Tacosnape]

Landstill packing Wrath is problematic. Most Chalice Aggro decks can actually get away with trying to ride a single threat to victory. However, because of the nature of the deck (IE, Hellbent), you can't easily not walk into a Wrath. You usually have to play your shit and hit them in the mouth as hard and as fast as possible and hope for the best.

The bright side of this is that Wrath is incredibly hard to cast with a Moon effect on the table.

I've never found Landstill to be unwinnable. Certain versions are far more unfavorable, obviously, but I think the best solution to Landstill is just to run a large number of threats, as I think anything you do to fix the matchup at this point weakens the deck's other matchups.

There's always original Dragon Stompy 1.0 tech in Boil, though, if you want to worry that much about it.

[Joe_C]

Landstill packing Wrath is problematic. Most Chalice Aggro decks can actually get away with trying to ride a single threat to victory. However, because of the nature of the deck (IE, Hellbent), you can't easily not walk into a Wrath. You usually have to play your shit and hit them in the mouth as hard and as fast as possible and hope for the best.

The bright side of this is that Wrath is incredibly hard to cast with a Moon effect on the table.

I've never found Landstill to be unwinnable. Certain versions are far more unfavorable, obviously, but I think the best solution to Landstill is just to run a large number of threats, as I think anything you do to fix the matchup at this point weakens the deck's other matchups.

There's always original Dragon Stompy 1.0 tech in Boil, though, if you want to worry that much about it.

playing against 3 color landstill that runs a shitload of basics walks right around blood moon. Aside from the fact that having u/b/w available =EE for 3. I played against a very stable mana based landstill deck that did not even care about my moon effects. Although he credited the match to him drawing alot of his basics, in the long game he had me done anyways. True that gearing the deck to beat landstill with thrash the otherwise good matchups, I just hope to have to face 4 color landstill if I am going to play against landstill at all.

[ParkerLewis]

playing against 3 color landstill that runs a shitload of basics walks right around blood moon. Aside from the fact that having u/b/w available =EE for 3. I played against a very stable mana based landstill deck that did not even care about my moon effects. Although he credited the match to him drawing alot of his basics, in the long game he had me done anyways. True that gearing the deck to beat landstill with thrash the otherwise good matchups, I just hope to have to face 4 color landstill if I am going to play against landstill at all.

Depends on the "shitload"... It's not like they can support more than 5-6 basics, if they want to still fit mishras and either other manlands or wastelands.

If it's 5+, you'll usually have trouble if you can't drop the blood moon before their second land drop, with a dragon getting the second color.

On the other hand, if they run 4 or less, and you manage to drop a blood moon early enough (ie before their second land drop), they'll have a hard time getting all their colors.

[Tacosnape]

Depends on the "shitload"... It's not like they can support more than 5-6 basics, if they want to still fit mishras and either other manlands or wastelands. That's 5-6 basics at most, distributed among 3 different colors.

If you manage to drop a blood moon early enough (ie hopefully before their second land drop), they simply can't get all their colors unless they're lucky as hell, or destroy it beforehand.

This is pretty much exactly what I was going to say. Parker's more or less right. Most Landstill decks don't pack more than four basics. And a turn one Moon means you shut off their fetches from getting them. And even if not, they still need two white to nail a Wrath or Humility. A turn one moon on the draw / turn two on the play is often good enough to pull this off.

If you're playing against a Landstill player that's for some reason running six or more basics, then you're playing against a suboptimal Landstill build. And it's well known that Dragon Stompy's worst matchup is jank.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

...they'll have a hard time getting all their colors.

Unless they're prepared. If they can get a single Island or Plains, like from a fetchland, the can remove a Moon.

[Rinello]

I'll offer some basics though. For frame of reference, here's my list.

I'll post more later if anyone has specific matchup questions.

Question: Can I have your babies?

Ok, rly: What can I board against random aggro stuff? In my meta I have A LOT of aggro decks and a strange Cataclysm White Weenie..
Plus I scoop if I can't see Dragon or Slogger when a Stalker comes down from a random deck..
Is there any chance to have some removal other than Pyrokinesis?

[Arsenal]

^
It sounds like you face alot of aggro mono-colored decks, or at least decks with lots of basics. Does not bode well for DS. Also, DS loses to random junk all the time, so don't despair. Perhaps move FTK back into a slot if there truly is that much aggro running around?

[Julian23]

^
It sounds like you face alot of aggro mono-colored decks, or at least decks with lots of basics. Does not bode well for DS. Also, DS loses to random junk all the time, so don't despair. Perhaps move FTK back into a slot if there truly is that much aggro running around?

FTK, Pyroclasm, Powder Keg, Jitte. Still this transformates this deck into something it definitely isn't. Unless you insist on DS you might wanna try a different deck. Something like Enchantress really crushes a lot of aggro decks.

[slylie]

Ichorid: Crypts are good and replace Jittes. Trinispheres can be but probably aren't, as all they deal with that a Moon doesn't is Cabal Therapy flashbacks. Needles and Pyrokinesis both have their moments, but you'll be hard pressed to find slots for them. Consider Kinesis over Chalice if you're going second.

Thanks for the input, only thing is I find trinisphere way more effective against ichorid. On the play a turn 1 trinisphere is really really hard on them. They can't play LED, they can't play unmask, they can't flashback or hardcast therapy, careful study, breakthrough, putrid imp, ect until they draw their 3rd land, which concidering most builds only run 11 should be long enough for you to kill them. Even on the draw if they get a grave full of creatures a resolved trinisphere means they will have a hard time playing their therapies, deep a or return.

[Illissius]

What about using Mox Diamond to splash for black, for Jagged Poppet and Shriekmaw? Poppet costs 1CC which is Pretty Bad, but the effect seems stupid powerful when it connects. And Shriekmaw is just good.

(For more on Diamond, see here. Executive summary: Mox Diamond is card disadvantage, but so was Chrome Mox. You play Chrome Moxen instead of lands and pitch spells to it, while you play Mox Diamonds instead of spells and pitch lands to it, so it ends up being a wash. Your topdecks are worse, but it's not a huge deal. However, Diamond makes splashing colors a Hell of a lot easier. You get to play a fetch+duals manabase in 14 colored lands, along with the Diamonds, and none of the awkwardness Chrome Mox has with multiple colors. Threshold uses 18 colored sources to play four colors.)

I was thinking of maybe something like this:

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Jagged Poppet
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Arc-Slogger
3 Shriekmaw
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Seething Song
4 Mox Diamond
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Badlands
6 Mountain
1 Swamp