[Deck] Pox

[rleader]

How has it been for the you guys who run it?

Most of the people who do or claim they do are ones who don't play in real tournaments (where people bring their A-game and don't concede at the first touch of land destruction) but just goof off on workstation. Mox can be nice, but it's bad against opposing control decks and generally doesn't speed you up in any relevant way versus combo; and in both cases, it costs you a card.

It's funny, all of the top8 decks that show up have lists that seem pretty archaic (things like chimeric idol), so either all of this new tech is garbage or these people aren't making anything out of it.


Also, on moving this thread, Vaka Pox (white splash for vindicate/ghostly prison) is already in established decks.

For this thread to be moved, it would have to have something remotely close to a consistant deck list and that'll never happen unless:

1. People with really bad ideas who only playtest against Elves decide to shut up.

2. Pox decks in general start to top8 enough to get the thread moved into the ATW (archetype to watch) forum.

As things stand, the only cards generally agreed upon by the peanut gallery are Smallpox and Sinkhole -- and 8 cards do not an established deck make.

[Barsoom]

Samsunait, what did the mods say about moving the thread to the Established Decks forum?

I sended a PM to Nihil Credo, and he said that there is already the Vaka Pox Thread on Established, but that he can close one topic, and let the other topic live. We'll see what happen.
I think this thread can be a better starting point than the Vaka Pox one.

[Arne]

I don't know... Imho, Vaka Pox has proven to be stronger and more competitive than the mono-B build.

Let me be clear, I haven't seen a pox deck reach the T8 for quite some time, but when it did, it usually was a W/B Build. There are reasons why people don't post a lot in either thread...

[montanhas18]

Hi,

I play Pox (mono-black) regularly but I don't play in any tournaments (no Legacy tournaments around here). So please spare the "stfu noob!" replies. I just wanted to ask y'all what you think about two cards I really like. Not saying their amazing or not, just wanted to hear what people who play Pox in tougher - or more serious - environments have to say:

Blackmail
B
Sorcery
Target player reveals three cards from his or her hand and you choose one of them. That player discards that card.

Raven's Crime - B
Sorcery (Common)
Target player discards a card.
Retrace (You may play this card from your graveyard by discarding a land card in addition to paying its other costs.)

(I did search the thread but found no comments. If I did miss, I'm sorry for bringing this up again.)

Thanks.

[Nihil Credo]

I had the chance to scroll through the threads today - I actually thought "Vaka Pox" was just a team name for the same deck, but I learnt that it indicates the White splash builds.

There is a bit of cross-pollination between the two threads (i.e. posts about BW in this one and about mono-B in the other), but otherwise it seems people actually have a use for both of them. Until that changes, I'm leaving them both open.

[The Rack]

montanhas18: Blackmail isn't all that bad in the deck and overall as a discard card however with the addition of Thoughtseize in the 1cc range has moved Blackmail out of contention. I would first run Thoughtseize, then Duress, then blackmail, but there isn't a deck that wants 12 1cc discard spells. Hymn is overall better than it too.

Raven's Crime: It's really good in Loam based decks so maybe if your pox deck ran Loam it would support it, but Pox already gets rid of your lands anyhow. I would probably say no to both of them.

[Arne]

on the other hand. To discard a land card with raven's crime and then put it into play because of your CoW seems pretty dandy

But like the rack said; they are both not strong enough because of thoughtseize and duress... If I were to play a budget pox deck (which is easy to do) I'd play raven's crime.

[slylie]

I think if your build includes the rack as a win condition and crucible as mine does, raven's crime is worth at least two spots in this deck. It turns all of your mid-late game dead land draws into discard, and with crucible out its even better. Even early game first turn dark ritual out crucible with raven's crime in hand can be amazing. assuming you have 3-4 lands for the next 2 turns you rip apart your your opponents hand while holding your business spells back to take out whatever they managed to get on the board. Late game or after you pox, with raven's crime each land you draw forces them to discard a card they drew and can't play because of the land loss or are holding to stay out of reach of the rack. Sure I would rather hit them with an early thoughtseize or duress over making them discard their worst card, but the mileage you can get out of one raven's crime can really add up.

[Holo_rip]

Raven won't work with crucible. you have to get the land IN YOUR HAND, so i think you mean life from the loam.

Holo.

[Arne]

I think he means he doesn't lose the land drop...

[kilukru]

So this is the list im curently running :

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
12 [SHM] Swamp (2)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
3 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Creatures
3 [FUT] Epochrasite
3 [MM] Nether Spirit
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
2 [REW] Powder Keg
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
3 [5E] Pox
3 [FNM] Duress
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
4 [B] Sinkhole
4 [TSP] Smallpox

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [FNM] Smother
SB: 2 [REW] Powder Keg
SB: 4 [4E] Dark Ritual
SB: 2 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate


Card choice :

Win con : yes i run 3 epoch, 3 spirit and 3 tombstalker plus the 4 factory and I found out that extra threat in this deck is pretty good. The only thing im not sure about is epoch vs idol, I went with epoch for the casting cost but both seem like great choice

Dark ritual in sb : seem's weird, but too often when i had it in MB it was THE worst card in the deck and most of the time when I draw one i was wishing for anything except that (mostly threat). The card is really strong in SB since it give you a great game against combo and some control deck.

Powder keg : aka the token slayer, also can take out dreagnought and goyf, if you know what you are fighting you can arm one and wait for their drop. Worked better than infest for me as a board cleaner

23 land : Might be a little low, but with the 2 crucible, it generally run smooth, and lets be frank, if we wanted a 100% stable, reliable deck we woul'nd play pox

3/2 Duress/Thoughtseize : Ok i only own 2 thoughtseize, I think the best split would be 2/3, seize isn'nt a must in here since we boast lot's of early creature removal, so if we miss one with duress we can take it out when it hit the board.

Extirpate : There's a great debate right now on the source about this card, I want to mention that Pox is THE deck to abuse this card. Whit all the discard and destruction this deck can produce, you can generaly hit what you want to hit. I still beleive that the best target are dual in low land count deck's, this card can be one of the most powerful tech in this deck.

On an other note, I dont beleive splashing for tarmo is good for this deck, yes it come in early and strong, but he will more often then never but an halt to your main plan, while stalker come a little later when your desire to cast symetrical destruction is much lower. Epoch come as soon as a goyf and once it hit the playing field he's pretty hard to get rid of.

I think that the most prevalent drawback of this deck is that it has a tendency to run out of fuel and most solution to this problem cost life, and this deck is already life hungry(infernal contract, bob,etc) so you end up with a even bigger problem, if someone can find a solution to this, it could propel this deck pretty high, because lets be frank, this deck can wreck a large part of the meta and handle random deck pretty well.

Anyone tried relic of progenitus in here? could be a good GY hate card since it cantrip, fueling you a little

[Captain Hammer]

I see no reason to play 4 Innocent Blood when your creature count is already so high.

But otherwise, the list looks great.

What're some good Innocent Blood replacements?

[Arsenal]

I see no reason to play 4 Innocent Blood when your creature count is already so high.

But otherwise, the list looks great.

What're some good Innocent Blood replacements?

Diabolic Edict. I would normally say Vendetta, but it'll mess with your life too much.

[Blair Phoenix]

List I'm currently running

Lands:
15 swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta

Creatures:
3 Tombstalker
2 Nether Spirit

Spells:
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
3 Sensei's Devining Top
3 Cursed Scroll
2 Bitterblossom

Basically, I don't run Crucible. Why? I think it comes down to how I play the deck compared to the rest of you. You all seem to play the deck more control-ish, while I play it much more aggressively. Also I think a lot of you use Crucible as a crutch to allow you to use which in essence is a very weak mana base.

[slylie]

Raven won't work with crucible. you have to get the land IN YOUR HAND, so i think you mean life from the loam.

Holo.

Yeh I mean't you can just play the land from the grave anyways so discarding it to raven's crime makes no difference.

anyways I tested more and raven's crime is really is good, even as a 2 of. I'm thinking its an auto-include since it doesn't give your opponent the chance to stabilize after you just poxed. Sure, its not spectacular but once you have just poxed and your opponent is left to draw cards hoping to get back into the game, each land you draw becomes a skull fracture instead of being a land that you don't need anyways. I run 4x sinkhole in my build which makes it even better as you can hold them off mana while they are hoping to draw something they can play, and wasteland + crucible out can just be evil. Before I started testing raven's crime I had alot of games go to both of us in topdeck mode, then me drawing dead lands and them building back up a hand to combo out and kill me or drop x creature after I worked so hard to put the game state in my favor. Now with just one little raven's crime those games turn into wins since you will just be drawing lands (making them discard) or business spells which is usually even better.

BTW to state the obvious tombstalker really is a godsend to this deck. If I ever get my own invitational card I will just ask them to reprint it with my head pasted onto the demon's claw. I'm up to 3 in my build. Nether spirit is good at endlessly blocking goofy but this guy really seals the game. If this thing had pro white it would be worth more than black lotus and mox jet combined.

[slylie]

List I'm currently running

Lands:
15 swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta

Creatures:
3 Tombstalker
2 Nether Spirit

Spells:
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
3 Sensei's Devining Top
3 Cursed Scroll
2 Bitterblossom

Basically, I don't run Crucible. Why? I think it comes down to how I play the deck compared to the rest of you. You all seem to play the deck more control-ish, while I play it much more aggressively. Also I think a lot of you use Crucible as a crutch to allow you to use which in essence is a very weak mana base.

Thing is, pox is a control deck. Crucible + wasteland is a pseudo win condition against alot of decks, Crucible + mishra's factories is great synergy, and if you run cabal pit its yet another way to abuse the crucible. If you run mox diamond (i don't) its also slightly good. Also in the mirror if you get crucible out you basically win the game.

The tops look really weird in this deck. Especially with only 4 shuffles. ... although delta + crucible + top......

[Androstanolone]

I've found mox diamonds to be incredible in the deck. Essentially replace dark ritual with diamond. You still get explosive starts but the diamond produces the right amount of mana (2 on turn 1 and 3 on turn 2). Three mana on turn one is awkward without a duress. Two mana on turn one is savage, and the mana is *permanent*. It can also be recurred with crucible.

While crucible is essentially a "win more" card, it works very well in a pox deck because of all the synergy. It's "win more" because if you have time to drop it and recur a few lands with it you were in a good position anyway. However, the immense synergy with diamond, factory, pox, smallpox, and wasteland turns it into a house. This combination of "win more" ness and excellent synergy makes the number of crucibles to run very difficult. It's also a matter of how much one wants to depend on the graveyard and nonbasics. If your win cons already depend on the GY (NS, TS) do you want your other strengths (factory, wasteland) to also depend on the GY AND nonbasics? You get into a dangerous zone of opening yourself up to popular power hate. A relatively less-powered deck like this only survives by its ability to evade populate hate. So a bit of a "mixed bag" is what I've found to work best. I treat the deck as one that does not *need* crucible to win, but likes to see a crucible. So I run 2. The diamonds are powerful even without crucible, acceleration AND color-fix (if you wanna W or G splash). I won't post a list because I think it is somewhat meta dependent. I just want to contribute my suggestion of diamond in place of rit plus a couple crucs and trying to keep the nonbasic count under control.

[Captain Hammer]

Yes, I'm starting to think that Mox Diamond in place of Dark Ritual and 1-2 Raven's Crime really should be staples in this deck.

I also think the white splash is the stronger route to go. Plus, by splashing a color, you can play 4 Tombstalker, which is sweet.

[rleader]

I'd still like to hear an actual tournament report from someone who plays mox.

[Arne]

has anyone considered the vulnerability of mox diamond? In my current meta, cards like engineered explosives and powder see a lot of play. I don't think mox diamond would be stronger than a dark ritual in my meta.