[Deck] Ichorid

[Parcher]

Running Leyline is a bad idea.

And the thing to remember against Goblins and Affinity is that these decks are awful at defense. If you get Ichorid beats going early, and can still muster a few chump blockers yourself they can rarely deal with the card advantage since almost all of their blockers will die to 3/1's. You just have to continue the threat, a case where Street Wraith is a better addition to the deck for both his uses. Ringleader and the first turn Affinity board vomit can cause problems with this plan, but no one said that these are easy matchups.

[sunshine]

@Parcher: Are you running street wraiths in the main? If so what got cut for them? And if they're in your board what does that look like?

[Parcher]

No. I was just saying that the versions with them can afford to not overcommit against those decks in case they topdeck crypt. And have a better continuation of threat due to slower dredging and more Black creatures.

[georgjorge]

The only real response I have is: why win later when you can win now?

Because then you can put 4-6 more cards in your deck that actually help you get to this point instead of being good when you're already there.

[GoldenCid]

No. I was just saying that the versions with them can afford to not overcommit against those decks in case they topdeck crypt. And have a better continuation of threat due to slower dredging and more Black creatures.

Oh! By they way...i was thinking about cutting careful study (3x) for 3 street wraith...is that a bad idea?
The list that i'm running now is this:

/ Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
3 [TSB] Gemstone Mine

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
1 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
2 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
3 [OD] Careful Study

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [10E] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 1 [TO] Crippling Fatigue
SB: 1 [JU] Ray of Revelation

Other options for SB...

SB: 3 [WL] Firestorm
SB: 1 [DIS] Simic Sky Swallower
SB: 1 [LE] Akroma, Angel of Wrath
SB: 2 [MM] Unmask

Is viable then CS for SW??
And i know my SB sucks!!

[Parcher]

Either Careful Study or Street Wraith seem fine in that slot. I would favor CS since it adds the option of discard, with your lack of disruption though, Street Wraith would be better against Control decks.

[Mayk0l]

4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
3 [TSB] Gemstone Mine

I would also suggest running 4 Gemstone Mines, and rather cut Cephalid Coliseum. I now that card is pure awesomeness if you actually get to use it, but if you open a hand that needs something other than blue, you won't be able to effectively play the cards in your hand. This is especially the case when you need white or green to play Ray of Revelation if you want to run it in your sideboard.

[GoldenCid]

Either Careful Study or Street Wraith seem fine in that slot. I would favor CS since it adds the option of discard, with your lack of disruption though, Street Wraith would be better against Control decks.

Yes that's right! I was thinkung on running unmask in the sb against control or even combo...

[DragoFireheart]

This deck is disgusting. Any deck that forces you to have the needed sideboard to win or die is disgusting IMO.

Lotus Petal: thoughts? What can it offer to Ichorid?

[Mayk0l]

Played a small tournament here in Syracuse today. I liked the Witness so far, but I didn't like dropping a Coliseum for it, so I went back to the old build (-1 DR to 2 DR, -1 Witness, +1 Sage, +1 Coliseum).

Round One
Bye

Round Two
Zach Tartell playing Dragon Stompy
Game one: If I recall correctly, I get a slow start but one's the dredges are rolling, I hit 4 Bridges and 4 Ichorid he scoops.
Game two: I keep a mediocre hand that has the possibility of dealing with Crypt. He starts with disruption and a Pit Dragon and I can't beat faster than his Hellbent Dragon.
Game three: He got an early Trinisphere in but my hand has 3 lands and I draw 2 more. I think I took this one by hardcasting weenies and slowly dredging, can't really remember though.
2-1

Round Three
Di with Survival
Game one: I start off slowly after he thoughtseizes my play, but I'm still fast enough. Ichorids take it home.
Game two: Cant really remember, hehe. I know he played Pates on both Stinkweed Imp and Chain of Vapor, but that was in the same game he had a Yixlid Jailer. I do recall I won that game through little-dude-beats (Putrid Imp, Moeba and two zombies). I can't really remember if we went to three games or not, but I don't think we did.


Round Four
Bryant Cook with TES
Game one: I manage to Unmask his tutor. He manages to rip one off the top of his deck the turn before I kill him (believe turn 3).
Game two: I mulled twice and lost.

3-1 is enough for Top 2

Finals
Bryant Cook with TES
We decide to split the prize money and give him the rating points, and then we play 'for fun'. It's a nice gesture him giving me half the price money because the matchup is horrible.
Game 1: I keep a solid hand with turn one Unmask and Cabal Therapy. He wins with Ad Nauseum before I get a turn.
Game 2: I make him discard some essential stuff. He rips Ad Nauseum off the top and wins.

I was happy with how well the deck did. It keeps amazing me in how well it does in the face of hate.

[GoldenCid]

Well this my experience in a 26 players tournament (my sideboard sucks):

Round 1: Monogreen ramdom deck

Game 1: Combo in T3 wins the game.
Game 2: She doesn't sideboard, i don't side...combo T3. 1-0-0

Round 2: Landstill

Game 1: Bad hands...i can get the combo. He plays a meddling mage for dread return. I start playing aggro with ichorid and tokens but it isn't enought
with 1 life rest he wins the game.
Game 2: Mulligan. No sb cards....gg. 1-0-1

Round 3: WB control

Game 1: Bad start for both. I play aggro while waiting for more bridgers and dredgers. He tutors to tormod. Glup!! But ichorid makes him to sac early.
I discard a Stink imp with putrid in game. Dredge and ichorid and bridges are back!! Aggro version wins the game!
Game 2: With 2 CoV in hand i control the game and win with ichorid beats!! I run akroma postside but i wasn't necesary. 2-0-1

Round 3: Monowhite

Both games are won witha T3-T4 combo! 3-0-1 Let's go to top 8!!

Quarterfinal: Rock

Game 1: I knew that this guy had extirpate and pernicious in the main deck!
Cabal therapy helps me...and a combo in T4.
Game 2: Mulligan, mulligan. Pernicious + putrify to my needle beats me.
Game 3: Cabal therapy cuts extirpate from his hand and needle stops pernicious. In T4, EW to colissum + LED helps my to get the zealot in the four last cards!! Combo!!! 4-0-1

Semifinal: Grinding servant

Game 1: A fast combo building and a T0 tormod give him the first game.
Game 2: I get the combo before him (in this game i saw the importance of unmask)
Game 3: Again tormod in T0 and then in T2 give him the game. I had a chin but just one is not enought for 2 different crypts! 4-0-2

3rd and 4th place: intentional draw and split the prize money.
4-1-2

Conclusion: i'm glad, but i still have much to learn!

[georgjorge]

Someone suggested Mental Note, I've been testing it, and it looks pretty good. It's about on the power level of Careful Study, and probably better than Wraith. I've even tried to build a version with no LED but four Study, four Notes and four Brainstorms (very hot with Note and almost as good at dredging as Breakthrough), along with more land, but I'm not sure, though being able to support four Force is a very good thing.

[asdljas]

You know, I've tested Brainstorm and found that it is pretty powerful. Being able to draw three cards is almost as broken as Breakthrough.

So I have two questions:

1. Do we really need Ray of Revelation?
2. If not, can we switch the manabase to fetches and underground seas, then play with Brainstorm in place of Careful Study?

Being able to brainstorm / fetch into sideboard answers may help us to be more resilient. Brainstorm in game one can help us fix hands where we draw Narcomeoba and other useless cards.

My reservation is that I don't want to spend time brainstorming in G2 and G3 when I should be trying to race their hate.

Can I get some thoughts (Parcher especially)?

[GoldenCid]

You know, I've tested Brainstorm and found that it is pretty powerful. Being able to draw three cards is almost as broken as Breakthrough.

I'm not parcher but i'll give my opinion. Remember that we need cards in grave and brainstorm allows you dredge but if you don't have cards in hand you must to return 2 dredged cards to the topdeck instead the grave. I think that it is not so cool. I T0 you are not able to drop cards into the grave, just rearrenge the topdeck. Maybe brainstorm is cool at the eot to get rid of narcomoebas in hand if you have dredgers in the graveyard. This is the only advantage i see.

1. Do we really need Ray of Revelation?

No. But it is not a problem of manabase. We need a "rainbow" manabase to play ours firestorm in sb. I think that this answers your second question.

2. If not, can we switch the manabase to fetches and underground seas, then play with Brainstorm in place of Careful Study?

[georgjorge]

I've toyed with Brainstorm as well, and think that it's best compared to Breakthrough, which also doesn't get dredgers into the yard (well, it can do that, but it's usually not such a great play).

Brainstorm...

- doesn't discard your whole hand, sometimes that's an advantage and sometimes not
- allows you to keep some suboptimal hands (without dredgers, for instance) since you get to see the next three or four cards
- is a decent combo with Mental Note

Breakthrough...

- gives you one more dredge
- gets around Chalice@1
- can occasionally put a dredger into the yard


Also, is Firestorm really such a broken card that you have to weaken your manabase for it ?

As to Ray, I've found that Dread Return + Woodfall Primus works just as well.

[Parcher]

Yes, Firestorm is broken enough to run the 5C manabase. For certain.

I wouldn't run Ray period without more lands. The chance of getting two lands to cast is against Leyline is too small in the needed time. Obviously Primus is useless in this situation.

I like Brainstorm, but the deck has to be reconfigured to run it. It is a decent replacement for Breakthrough, but you would need to add another discard outlet to do so. It's filtering ability, and instant speed more than make up for the loss of one draw, but as mentioned, you need something in the yard to Dredge with. If you open a hand with the goods, (Ichorid, Bridge, Dredgers) and no discard outlet, Breakthrough can at least put all of that in the 'yard turn one.

As a standalone, which you have to evaluate every card as in Ichorid due to it's total lack of controlling it's draws, I rate it lower than Careful Study. Study can act as filtering, dredging, and a discard outlet. It's just the least powerful indivudually of all the options.

If you want to try a version with both Mental Note and Brainstorm, the go for it. Those two seem good together, and will allow you to find SB answers well. The main problems I see are needing a combination of cards for them to work at all together, and a frighteningly new vulnerability to a turn one/two Wasteland.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Well honestly it really depends on your meta and how you like to play the deck. Some people like the chaos of LED Dredge and some prefer the "slower" Dredge style (averaging turn 3 kills). This is the SB I use with slower Dredge:

4x Wispmare
4x Pithing Needle
4x Chain of Vapor
3x Chalice of the Void

However my build, which has been posted in this thread numerous times runs 15 rainbow lands to support Tireless Tribe and Wispmare; I also run 3x Darkblast in the main (meta call tired of fucking Mogg Fanatic). But lets not start the "my build is better because" argument again, it was boring last time and probably would be again. Point being, all SB strategies are different and none of them should be considered superior to any other one. However, if you take notice, all the people who have experience with the deck don't run Leyline of the Void in the SB and all of them run 4x Chain of Vapor and 4x Piting Needle. If you want to run Ray of Revelation in the SB go ahead but it just requires more mana than Wispmare/Demystify and Leyline removes it anyway so no flashback.

Regarding fetchlands, I never liked them in the deck because I believe they thin the mana to much and there are matchups where I really want to be able to reliably hit 2 mana.

Mental Note is strictly inferior to Careful Study. CS is a great setup card, 1/2 a Breakthrough, and helps dig for SB cards. The same goes for Brainstorm, the fact that it does not make you discard anything is not optimal. Imagine a hand with 1 land, some dredgers and Brainstorm/Mental Note. Its keepable but iffy, where as if that 1x card was Careful Study it would be a pretty solid hand. I love Careful Study in the deck and play it as a 4x of. I used to not run it but time has convinced me that I need it. A very valuable card but again it depends on your playstyle. There is no optimum list for Dredge but there are optimum cards and Careful Study is certainly one of those if it suits you build and playstyle.

@georgjorge: Woodfall Primus is good at answering Propaganda effects but does nothing against Leyline. It is not so good at removing Deed or EE since you have to DR it and then get your tokens killed and start over. You are running it in the Sb correct? As an additional answer to Prison, Elephant Grass etc? It is really not necessary in the main, an additional Cephalid Sage is just as good.

[Mayk0l]

Do you guys board in Firestorm against AN combo? I'm thinking I probably would board it, seeing as it may steal their last lifepoints, but on the other hand the combo player will most likely see this coming and I probably won't have enough creatures (he definitely won't) to deal more than 2-3 damage with it. That might be enough to surprise some players but it seems suboptimal.
If you board it in against AN combo, what do you board out, since you want to keep the combo and Unmasks in?

[GoldenCid]

Some people like the chaos of LED Dredge and some prefer the "slower" Dredge style (averaging turn 3 kills).

What is the chaos of LED??

However my build, which has been posted in this thread numerous times runs 15 rainbow lands to support Tireless Tribe

15 lands are too much i my opinion and do you run tribe instead imp??

@Mayk0l: I think that against combo unmask is the best option...and by the way what is AN?

[Mayk0l]

What is the chaos of LED??
15 lands are too much i my opinion and do you run tribe instead imp??

What he means is that his build focuses on consistency. He dredges and combos slower, but that means that the turn that he actually does win is more predictable. If you goldfish a LED/Breakthrough oriented version, you will most likely notice that your second turn kills will be facing a lot of turn 5-6 kills; I think he is referring to the unpredictability as 'chaos'. A lot of people prefer the LED/Breakthrough version, it sure has a better MU against combo simply because it has the potential to be faster.
Also, to answer your second question, in the name of consistency he runs the Tribe as an addition to 4 Putrid Imp. Putrid Imp is almost always superior.

@Mayk0l: I think that against combo unmask is the best option...and by the way what is AN?

AN is Ad Nauseum