I top 8ed at the Grid tournament in Manchester. Only 18 players but a solid player base.
I top 8ed with Geoff Smelski's list from the Syracuse 1k tourney.
-1 Tundra / +1 Academy Ruins
-1 SB Wrath / +1 SB Ajani
Here's my list:
// Lands
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [UNH] Island
2 [b] Tropical Island
4 [b] Tundra
3 [UNH] Plains
1 [b] Savannah
// Creatures
2 [PR] Eternal Dragon
// Spells
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
4 [FNM] Counterspell
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [REW] Wrath of God
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [TE] Humility
2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
2 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [JGC] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo
Round 1:
Ray Meathooks: 0-2: I heard Hibernation Sliver is good. These games proved it to me. I realized now I boarded poorly.
Round 2:
Red Thresh: 1-1-1
Game 1: I lose to a scary goyf.
Game 2: I survive at 1 life after wasting his red source and he later shows the bolt.
Game 3: When time is called I have double decree + humility with nothing staring me down.
Round 3:
Trialbyfire: Dreadstill UGr: 2-0
Game 1: He played standstill and I proceeded to go broken with eternal dragon and double decree. I win with 2 life.
Game 2: I keep a 1 lander and proceed to force and swords two early goyfs and then drop crucible. I then proceed to draw all of my decrees and counterspells/forces. At one point I was at 1 facing down trinket mage with good board position. I swords his mage, he counters it, I decree (3) for enough to block and kill knowing he has trickbind, then animate factory and block. I win at 3 life.
Round 4:
My teammate DJ: Rgb Goblins: 2-0 Thanks teammate even though I did win in three.
Game 1: Goblins do what goblins do.
Game 2: I resolve humility and he has no outs.
Game 3: I draw 3 swords, 3 wraths, and double humility. I win in savage fashion.
Round 5:
Holiday: Tombstalker: 2-0
Game 1: I remember having a million land at the end of the game with humility on the board.
Game 2: I wastelanded him early and resolve Crucible. I drew a million cards off multiple standstills in succession.
Top 8:
Joe: Survival: 0-2. I have no answers to Survival.dec
Props:
A lot of friendly faces
Two top 8's for Team Awesome
Humility being Humility.
People not expecting Ajani
The Grid for being closer than Hadley
First time ever playing the Wrath of Gods I bought 3ish years ago.
Slops:
Trying to krosan grip survival of the fittest with no green source when the turn earlier I plaincycled and fetched a basic plains with savannah in deck.
Scrubbing in the top 8 again.
Congratulations to everyone on their finishes and here's to more legacy in CT in the future.
This is the best version of Landstill I've found. So optimized and fine tuned that it ran well even in the games/matches I lost. A very similar list won the 1k Syracuse tournament run by Geoff Smelski. I would recommend this deck in any meta.
Maybe I'll get quoted somewhere for saying this but counterbalance isn't that good. I never found a time where I wanted it except against countersliver (meathooks) because all their spells are 2. I'd also probably want to see it against aggro loam. When I used to run counterbalance, I would focus solely on getting counterbalance and resolving it without thinking about how to win the game first. It's just me. I'd rather run sweepers (wrath/ee) and fof.
Last edited by rockout; 10-12-2008 at 12:20 AM. Reason: mispellings
Co-Founder of Team Awesome - I heard Randy Buehler say a while back that good players give themselves the most number of turns to find the answer.
The Source on MTGO - Predator8785 and RockOut
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Hey awesome report.
Is there anything you would change to your list?
Would the inclusion of B have changed your results?
(also, what were your SB strategies?)
Last edited by badjuju; 10-13-2008 at 05:57 PM. Reason: more questions
just looking for some help to clean up my list. it always feels like it needs just a few more counterspells but i don't know what to put in or take out.
38 Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Ancestral Visions
3 Swords to Plowshears
2 Fact or Fiction
3 Spellsnare
2 Humility
2 Wrath of God
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
1 Eternal Dragon
23 Land
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Plains
2 Islands
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
SB:
3 Sower of Temptation
3 Tormod's Crupt
3 Disenchant
1 Return to Dust
2 Runed Halo
3 Story Circle
klaus, mind if you post your recent list? I'm interested in the changes you have made in your deck since the source tournament.
This is the list I´ve been using while top8ing 4 of 5 played tournaments:
// NAME: uwbcunninglandstill
// Lands
1 [R] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
2 [OV] Plains
1 [U] Underground Sea
3 [UG] Island
4 [A] Tundra
// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
1 [US] Elspeth
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [TE] Humility
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [REW] Wrath of God
3 [6E] Counterspell
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 4 The Relic from SHards
I´m thinking about adding one more Spotremoval like Diabolic Edict or Condemn to the Main and maybe cutting the last Dragon for a second Elspeth. What do you think about it?
NQN
Last edited by NQN; 10-15-2008 at 07:25 AM.
To be honest, I haven't been playing any LS lately.
I'm not a slow player yet there were few events that I didn't end up getting at least one unwanted draw due to the archetypes general slowness.
If I were to attend a tournament tomorrow I'd certainly run 3 Decrees (I was running 2 most of the previous times) and 2 Ponder to find them.
The next thing I'd be willing to thoroughly test would be Konsultant's Vindicates (I'd consider a max of 3 though).
UWbLS IS still the strongest deck out there imo, so keep up the good work fellas - I'll be back in November, I'll be back in Novembaa.
I haven't tested Elspeth, Knight Errant and i plan to try her; however playing her instead of DoJ is wrong, try something like 2 DoJs, 1 Crucible and 1 Elspeth, Knight Errant, dropping the 2nd crucible and the dragon (or keep the dragon and drop something else...).
You play 11 counters, i don't think you need more...
I'm not convinced about Ancestral Visions, it's a 4th turn card in the best, you should have enough CA and if you need card selection Ponder and SdT are better...
The story circle in your side isn't better as CoP:red? or is used in other matchups?
You may consider Threads of Disloyality over Sower of Temptation (if it's really needed), and maybe Dismantling Blow over Disenchant for CB issues...
Well, why are you playing Ancestral Visions as a three of without the fourth Swords to Plowshares (BIG deal), and not more Fact or Fictions (not such a big deal, but still...)? Considering that cards like Swords to Plowshares are the reason you can let things resolve without shitting your pants, I'd think it would be beneficial, if not somewhat mandatory, to run them as a 4x before running other, questionable card choices. Perhaps it's your slight deficiency in board control cards (2 Humility, 2 Wrath of God, 3 Swords to Plowshares and 2 Engineered Explosives), that make you feel as though you need more counters. Perhaps. It's not like you're running wayyyy to little board control, but it's not as much as some others run (NQN's list on this page runs 4 StP, 3 EE, 2 Humility and 2 WOG), but it's not as much, so perhaps that might be it.
Also, I'm pretty sure that Vedalken Shackles is better than Sower of Temptation here, if not always 100% of the time in Control Decks running >15 Islands and fetchies. It's more board control, it's Card Advantage, it's just generally dandy, and considering that UW 'still doesn't EE for three that often, there really isn't a whole lot of reason not to run it.
I have two questions: First, has anyone played with Vedalken Shackles in Landstill before? If so, how did that pan out? I would think that in UWx Landstill it would be backbreaking against agro, considering that it's both card advantage and an anti-agro tool. It's really strong in MUC, so I would think that it would at least be playable here, and perhaps be stronger here.
Secondly, would playing Lim-Dul's Vault to find singleton Sideboard cards/ Academy Ruins/ to grab a Wrath of God EoT/ etc. be bad? The life loss is obviously a pain, but since people have found the room for Ponder as a 2-of, I'd think that LDV as a 3-of that seriously strengthens the control role of the deck would be... okay. Better than Ponder, at least.
EDIT: You might want to take a look at the discussion about Dust Bowl and Wasteland a few pages back, as well.
Team Battletoadz: Fuck the Meta-police?
If it's all in our heads, it's best that we don't loose them.
I tested it some time ago and never found it worth the slots I gave it (2-3of) because the only matchup where it really shines in is against those 'random aggro' decks (Zoo, Boros etc.) - against other aggressive decks your manabase will make it too slow as you have anywhere between 30-40% of your manabase being non-Islands* meaning that you won't be able to reliably prevent that Tarmogoyf from bashing you on turn 4 and unreliable control tools will make you randomly loose games which is certainly not what you want: you want to be as consistent as possible.
*: assuming the average manabase would look somewhat like this:
(using the last 4 top1 lists on Deckcheck.net as source for rough statistical data)
22-24 lands
3-4 Mishra's Factory - average: 3.8
0-1 Academy Ruins - average: 0.8
0-3 Wasteland - average: 2.0 (or 1 Dust Bowl if no Wastelands are played)
0-1 Tolaria West - average: 0.6
1-3 Plains - average: 1.6
0-1 Swamp - average: 0.2
0-2 Scrubland - average: 1.2
Lim-Dûl's Vault is card disadvantage and in your tertiary colour making it bad at fixing your earlygame (land drops + 'flow') which is Ponder's main job so you can't really compare them.
I don't think LDV is worth it at all as you don't need more stuff for the mid- to lategame as you have quite some good outs to win once you got there - now you'd better make sure that you actually do get there and manage to stabilize... LDV doesn't help doing that, Ponder does. Also, LDV is not that great in the mid- and lategame to justify it based on the lategame strength - after getting through the earlygame I'd rather have Fact or Fiction or something similar as that would at least give me the possibility of playing whatever I hit the same turn not giving my opponent the auto-Timewalk of LDV.
As far as new tech is concerned, I've tested Elspeth, Knight-Errant lately and I've been absolutely impressed: he's like a Decree of Justice that doesn't suck before the lategame. The first ability can win games on its own against all those semi-horrible midrange decks that rely on one threat to go all the way by buying you infinite time (e.g. Dragon Stompy, the Rock etc.) and the second ability is great for applying pressure so that your opponent doesn't have infinite time to find whatever he needs to overpower you. The second ability also makes up for him being slower than Decree of Justice in the lategame, at least to a certain extent. The last ability is used rather rarely and doesn't have that great of an impact on the game if you do use it but it's still nice to have as it totally shuts down any possibility of the opponent every decimating your life total via non-evasive beaters.
I've also tested Relic of Progenitus in the sideboard, replacing some Extirpates, and it's worth the slots as it's pretty strong in all matchups where you'd usually bring in the Extirpates while advancing your gameplan (cantrip). Especially the combination of two, not using their second ability, is disgusting against Loam based decks and almost makes up for the loss of the permanence of Extirpate's removal effect.
My current list can be found here - I'm rather happy with it right now because it plays much more aggressively and is much more active than previous lists which is the direction I want to move the archetype towards.
It does require some getting used to the new play style, but after the initial learning phase I never missed the old feel.
Team SPOD - ...land of the brave...
Between Vedalken Shackles, Threads of Disloyality and Sower of Temptation the shackles are probably the strongest cards on their own; however considering the meta and the main threat you usually want to get rid of (tarmogoyf) the threads seem to fit better in the side (actually i don't play any control magic effect in my side; if I have to pick one i would choose threads).
I have never considered Lim-Dul's Vault because i don't play a lot of black cards (0 md and 2 sb) and so the LdVs would force me to commit heavily on black.
I still have 0 shards card, but i'll proxy up some Elspeth. I've always played only 1 extirpate in the sb and 3 crypts, i'll try the relic; however i'll start using 2 pr and 1 tc so i can still use tolaria west to get it. However i see that having 2 relics on play and using their 1st ability is something strong...
I see the point in playing spell snares over counterspells, but it's not a change i would do right now... And i'm still a crucible fan, so i would go 1 crucible 1 dragon instead of 2 dragons...
I know it seems wierd but the 4x Vindicate's work the best with my SB strategies and the statistical amount of removal draws I was looking for. It seems to be a trend with my builds on Landstill, just try it out and perhaps it will make more sense when you are actually playing.
Team Pandora
Team Disqualified Poster
I feel incredibly retarded, but could you please post your most current version of Vindicate Landstill, konsultant? I dug 10 pages back and I couldn't find it. Also, has anyone had an success with Counterbalance-Still lately?
Team Battletoadz: Fuck the Meta-police?
If it's all in our heads, it's best that we don't loose them.
@raharu,
konsultant's list wasn't posted here, it was listed on deckcheck. Here's the link to it: http://www.deckcheck.net//deck.php?id=20070 (I think that's him...)
Yeah that's me, it's also in the top 8 decklist forum in a few places.
Team Pandora
Team Disqualified Poster
I haven't deveoped any ideas nor played the deck in a torunament since long ago. However, it might be interesting to point out that the tutor-balance strategy is more suitable in a dreadstill UW shell rather than in pure landstillhas anyone had an success with Counterbalance-Still lately?
(high CMC, too much lands). Dreadnought is a tutoreable quick win-con . (just what we lacked before)
I know this is not the appropiate thread to post a list,so you might consider looking at the most recent UW dreadstill list in that thread and add a couple of tutors
Hello all my name is Joel aka Moss,
I have recently been testing Dif's new model of 3C_Wish_Still and had some interesting conclusions. I wanted to share them with this group and get some responses on how you all fealt.
I've as of now tested 3C_Wish_Still approximately 10-15 games and am starting to get an idea of how the deck truly feels. Some things that i've noticed:
*Dif's new model is deffinately fitted around a metagame of decks, and as such I tend to get whomped on by decks that arn't included in that loop. This could be good or bad. So far the decks ive lost against have been a g/w wake deck that was fueled by the obvious wake into large decree, and of course it was under a standstill. I also lost against a heavy creature recursion deck using utility creatures with cc around 3 or so. It was b/w and had a bunch of interesting little synergies, but no real game ender. Bottom line I was really unhappy with the lack of counterspell in these matchups. I often sat with spell snares in hand for too long, and even though losing to random jank isn't really that important, it is still annoying. The one positive side to playing without counterspell is that you have a better curve and that your window for the early and mid games is much easier to fill.
*It's alot more resiliant as a whole to LD wasteland/stifle/ ect. as it's only 3 colors and realisticly is two with a small splash. Sometimes this can be bothersome but generally its not that bad at all. I rarely hit some cards like the new plainswalker "2 of" and also rarely hit wrath "2of" But as a general fact have no issues hitting humility "1 of" or both wishes "2 of". Bottom line I really like the base of the deck. It's much easier to fight the stupidness of legacy ld or resource control decks.
*The deck runs soo many brainstorms! Ponder as a 3 of tends to make my starting or progressive hand have 2-4 brainstorm effects at the beggining of the game. Now add in swords spell snare and maybe a force, and you really have alot of early answers. I actually don't like this. This is because I tend to run out of gas and am basicly relying on a standstill or more mana or a win condition to come up within x turns. Though a really good thing is that the deck runs 3 ee and thus doesn't really get caught with challice for 1 ever. I really like that.
If I haven't indicated it yet, I am very tuned with the four color model DIF played with some changes. So if I say something alittle out of context please, please correct me. I would really like to understand more about the 3 color models.
The largest difference is I feel like overall the change from the 4c to 3c is flexibility. you give up deed, LFTL, and seed spark which are all pretty significant in the four color model for the much less attractive wrath, return to dust, and maybe crucible. To me these are all fantastic cards as well but its like driving a mustang when you could be driving a porshe.
Bottom line this transition into 3 color is difficult and though I see all the theory diff is talking about I will need to continue testing to be sure that this is really the model I would like to play. If anyone has any insight on this model or changes that you've made to 3 color to improve it, let me know. I am all ears.
Welcome to the realm of UWb_LS, Mossivo!
I've been switching between 4 color versions and UWb_LS a lot in the past. The reason I ended up with the latter one is its consistency. The biggest advantage is the mana aspect obviously: You want to able to cast any spell, any time if possible. But there's more to it:
I see you miss your beloved Deed. What I don't get is that you miss cards like Seed Spark and LftL. Return to Dust or even D. Blow really aren't inferior to SP and Crucible (with a tutorable recursion engine, read: Tolaria West/E. Tutor into A. Ruins) is a way stronger setup (lower mana investment, no color requirements beyond U) than LftL shenanigans.
Deed only shines in permanent-heavy environments, while 3 EE (tutorable+ recurrable) and "Wish into Disenchant effect" and Wrath of God definitely suffice for tier1-2 mishmash metas.
You seem to underestimate WoG if you don't like it. In fact it was one of the few cards that I really missed when playing Deedstill.dec. I'm pretty sure more testing will help "convert" you into a true believer.
Peace,
Klaus
Last edited by klaus; 10-23-2008 at 04:00 AM.
Welcome to the realm of UWb_LS, Mossivo!
I've been switching between 4 color versions and UWb_LS a lot in the past. The reason I ended up with the latter one is its consistency. The biggest advantage is the mana aspect obviously: You want to able to cast any spell, any time if possible. But there's more to it:
I see you miss your beloved Deed. What I don't get is that you miss cards like Seed Spark and LftL. Return to Dust or even D. Blow really aren't inferior to SP and Crucible (with a tutorable recursion engine, read: Tolaria West/E. Tutor into A. Ruins) is a way stronger setup (lower mana investment, no color requirements beyond U) than LftL shenanigans.
Deed only shines in permanent-heavy environments, while 3 EE (tutorable+ recurrable) and "Wish into Disenchant effect" and Wrath of God definitely suffice for tier1-2 mishmash metas.
You seem to underestimate WoG if you don't like it. In fact it was one of the few cards that I really missed when playing Deedstill.dec. I'm pretty sure more testing will help "convert" you into a true believer
Peace,
Klaus
As I havent gotten to play with it is espeth a real game changer? Dif and I were talking about it in theory but I have not been able to play one as of yet.
Actually, when a german magic player is speaking of LandStill, I listen to him closely.
That's what I like in some Landstill : versatility and flexibility. But, there's always the "danger of cool things" trap lurking around...
So, Klaus, I have one question regarding Uw(b) LandStill. Without deed to blow your own things up, I've tried to sneak some CB//Top in my build (2/2 split).
I'm running 2 E.Tutors(+1 SB) along 2 Cunning Wishes and the possibility of countering any spell from 0 (E.E.) to 4 (Humility) for a single W looks quite potent.
But, to fit all those cards in, I have lowered my countermagic a bit and drop the FoF.
Here's the List :
TopStill
Mana : 23
4x Tundra
2x Island
2x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Plains
3x Mishra's Factory
1x Faerie Conclave (without Moat should be Factory #4)
1x Wasteland
1x Academy Ruins
1x Tolaria West
Countermeasures : 8
4x Force of Will
2x Counterspell
2x Counterbalance
Draw and Filter : 10
3x Standstill (must find room for #4)
4x Brainstorm
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Jace Beleren (my only 'hard' drawing engine, good with hoofprints. could become Standstill #4)
Tutors : 4
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Cunning Wish
Removal : 11
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Wrath of God
1x Humility
1x Moat (should be Humility #2 I think)
2x Engineered Explosives
0-1x Oblivion Ring (possible swap with Shackles)
WinCons : 4
2x Decree of Justice
1x Eternal Dragon
1x Hoofprints of the Stag
Utility : 1
1x Crucible of Worlds
0-1x Veldaken Shackles (possible swap with O.Ring)
Some cards serve multiple purpose obviously, but it feel like the list is too dilluted.
Might I ask you for some advices ?!
Overall your ideas seem OK. Do some testing and let us know. Since your version appears rather clunky I'd cut the Dragon and the C. Wishes for 2-3 Ponder though.
TopStill
Mana : 23
4x Tundra
2x Island
2x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Plains
3x Mishra's Factory
1x Faerie Conclave (without Moat should be Factory #4)
1x Wasteland
1x Academy Ruins
1x Tolaria West
Countermeasures : 8
4x Force of Will
2x Counterspell
2x Counterbalance
Draw and Filter : 10
3x Standstill (must find room for #4)--------Yep.
4x Brainstorm
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Jace Beleren (my only 'hard' drawing engine, good with hoofprints. could become Standstill #4)----He IS good with Moat and Hoofprints. However, beware of the danger of cool things, too
Tutors : 4
2x Enlightened Tutor-----------2 MD=none in the SB=better
2x Cunning Wish---------------with an E. Tutor toolbox MD, maybe you can just cut the C. Wish thing for good?
Removal : 11---------------this package seems alright.
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Wrath of God
1x Humility
1x Moat (should be Humility #2 I think)---------I do, too.
2x Engineered Explosives
0-1x Oblivion Ring (possible swap with Shackles)
WinCons : 4
2x Decree of Justice
1x Eternal Dragon
1x Hoofprints of the Stag------In the era of Grips, unreliable wincon. I tested it back in the day and never disliked it though..
Utility : 1
1x Crucible of Worlds
0-1x Veldaken Shackles (possible swap with O.Ring)---is OK but slow. Let me know how your testing it went.
Klaus
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