[Deck] Ichorid

[GoldenCid]

I thought so!! But i'm glad with my deck list...i think that there are some fixed slots and the rest is according to oneself style. In my opinion the fixed cards are:

4 Golgari grave troll
4 Stinkweed imp
4 Bridges from below
4 Narcomoebas
4 LED
4 Putrid imp
3 Golgari thug
1 Flame-kin zealot
4 Ichorid
4 Cabal therapy

All this plus a rainbow manabase...
This gives to the deck te potencial to get the combo and many tokens.

Coming back to ad nauseam combo (i guess AKA TES or Tendrils) i think that unmask i a key card as well as against grinding servant and other combos even the mirror match (but i'm not sure at this last point)
Concerning firestorm i think that the matchup to side it claerly is cotrol specially blue control.

[The_Red_Panda]

4 Golgari grave troll
4 Stinkweed imp
4 Bridges from below
4 Narcomoebas
4 LED
4 Putrid imp
3 Golgari thug
1 Flame-kin zealot
4 Ichorid
4 Cabal therapy

So let me get this straight, FKZ is a must-have, but Dread Return isn't? I think you might want to amend that.

[georgjorge]

@georgjorge: Woodfall Primus is good at answering Propaganda effects but does nothing against Leyline. It is not so good at removing Deed or EE since you have to DR it and then get your tokens killed and start over. You are running it in the Sb correct? As an additional answer to Prison, Elephant Grass etc? It is really not necessary in the main, an additional Cephalid Sage is just as good.

You're right, it's mainly a Prison/Grass/Moat answer, although it can be decent against Landstill as well. When I mentioned Ray, I meant for it to fill the same role, i.e. as a one-of that kills a Prison/Grass for the kill.

[GoldenCid]

So let me get this straight, FKZ is a must-have, but Dread Return isn't? I think you might want to amend that.

I was referring to number of copies of a defined card. Of course DR is a must have but some play it in 2x and others in 3x. If you want just add 2-3 Dread return to the list.

You're right, it's mainly a Prison/Grass/Moat answer, although it can be decent against Landstill as well. When I mentioned Ray, I meant for it to fill the same role, i.e. as a one-of that kills a Prison/Grass for the kill.

In that cases i think that we have soe time to deal with that problem. Chain of vapor is great at this time. Just draw to get it or dredge and retrieve it with EW before getting the combo.

[asdljas]

So no Ray of Revelation in the board at all? Does the same go for Ancient Grudge?

Also, can somebody explain how to utilize Firestorm correctly (when to side it, when to play it)?

Thanks.

[Pulp_Fiction]

@ Mayk0l: That is exactly what I was referring to, LED Dredge is less predictable but more explosive. And Putrid Imp is always better than Tireless Tribe but Tribe can actually block and will buy a couple of turns on average and is really the only suitable replacement discard effect IMOP to run in Dredge in the place of LED.

@ Golden Cid: Ray of Revelation and any other additional enchantment removal spells are going to be better than Chain of Vapor alone if you expect a lot of Prison and Moat effects. By running only CoV it forces you to be able to combo out the next turn before they can recast the enchantment. Ray just kills something dead twice so as you don't have to worry about it. Or lets you go nuts in one turn and flashback the spell without ever even needing to draw it.

@ Drow Slayer: Run either card if you expect it but I think Ancient Grudge is highly unnecessary unless your meta has a LOT of Stiflenought in it. Needle takes care of EE and Crypt/Relic and those are the only artifiacts this deck really needs to worry about after SB. Same with Ray of Revelation, its spectacular if your meta has tons of Prison and Moat effects; but if you rarely see Ghostly Prison, Elephant Grass, Moat, or Propaganda you should not run it. No SB is set in stone except ALL Dredge SBs almost without exception need 3 or more Pithing Needle and 4x Chain of Vapor.

[sunshine]

@Drow Slayer:

I typically side in Firestorm against fast aggro (i.e. Goblins) or rock-ish decks that pack Yixlid Jailer in the board (or any other deck with creature based hate for that matter, that is just what is most prevalent in my meta). In theory you could use them as an uncounterable discard outlet as well, but I've never found that to be necessary.

Against fast aggro the plan usually is to wait for them to over commit then drop firestorm (Ideally you would have a needle in play as well). This should put you in a position to either generate a lot of zombie tokens/get Ichorid beats going/make Big Tolls on your next turn with them severely weakened. Honestly, you will often get a four/five for one out of the deal and hit them for a quarter of their life as well. Don't be afraid to take a couple hits.

[Dark_Cynic87]

You are forgetting that Ancient Grudge really is your only out against Trinisphere for the combo part of the deck (and even then you have to pop an LED if you got one dropped before the 3sphere, or wait until you hit 3 of 11-13 lands to get through just one 3sphere). It MAKES you go ichorid beats, and that gets waylaid quickly as most decks not named Dragon Stompy that play Trinisphere have Propaganda/Bridge/Prison.

Boarding in Firestorm is great against blue control such as but not limited to Thresh, Thrash, all Landstill, MUC and Faerie Stompy. With the discarding being part of the additional cost, it's a godsend to get to discard your cards even if the spell itself is countered. Now, you don't have to go DDD.

I think that Firestorm is good against AdN combo as well. If they get too overzealous and drop to single digits, Firestorm can really finish them off. Plus, if you get a good clock going (a quick token-producing Ichorid should do it), it MAKES them Ad Nauseam down to a pretty low life just to get what they need. Then Firestorm makes quick work of them.

Unmask works, but I've become underwelmed with it as of late. It's still an option obv., and it works well against combo and control, but it creates card disadvantage as well as not being proactive in winning the game. It just seems to not be my style. I will use it if I need it, but I've not needed it for a while now. Just my meta I suppose.

I do still use a 3/2 split on Breakthrough/Street Wraith respectively, though.

I want you guys to keep in mind Wispmare is good in the Ray spot. Evokes for W. Also, this is a VERY minor point, but in the mirror you can evoke it game 2 to rid you of their leyline and their bridges.

Pce,

--DC

[Mayk0l]

With Ad Nauseum possibly becoming a commonly played deck that will beat Ichorid more often than Ichorid will beat it, I was wondering if adding Orim's Chant to the board might become something we could consider?
It's not ideal, but it's an answer to combo that will not be beaten by a nasty topdeck (as Unmask and Therapy are).
It might require us to play another Rainbow Land in the board (Undiscovered Paradise obviously).

The only problem I see with this idea is that the Board is swamped with other cards as it is. What do you guys think?

[GoldenCid]

May be against AdN, stifle would fit better with our manabase...

[loop]

If AdN decks dont even fear Stifle from blue decks, I doubt ichorid will scare them with it. Post AdN it's VERY unlikely that they won't have an answer (duress/chant) to prevent you from stifling the storm trigger.

Mayk0l, chant is strong yeah; but if you're keeping mana open to chant them you're not really advancing your own plan, so how will you benefit from the tempo boost?

I want you guys to keep in mind Wispmare is good in the Ray spot.

I agree, I've been running 2 Wispmares + 1 Ray for a while. Chain+Wisp give you 6 answers to leyline, which is comfortable; and since it's a creature, you can DR it to destroy a propaganda/prison when you're already set up (giving you 2-3 outs with Ray). I like having outs to prison effects, especially since it doesnt take a dedicated slot like Primus (because it's also useful against leyline).
The fact that it removes bridges in the mirror while dealing with leyline is just a nice extra :)

[Nihil Credo]

While it seems the consensus has moved away from both cards, classic SB options Chalice@0 and Leyline of the Void make a decent if not great anti-Storm combo team. The former can slow them down enough that they lose too much life to reliably win off Ad Nauseam; the latter shuts down IGG combo, aka Route B.

'Course, you need the speed of Dread Return in that matchup, so sideboarding gets even more tricky than usual. I defer the question to the experts.

[GoldenCid]

While it seems the consensus has moved away from both cards, classic SB options Chalice@0 and Leyline of the Void make a decent if not great anti-Storm combo team.

Chalice@0 is good option: cuts their petals, mox and led, including our leds!!! So think in a general fashion that getting combo as fast as possible is pur best choice and using correctly the therapy / unmask power would help us to get rid in this matchup

[Zinch]

Obviously, you play your LEDs before playing the chalice at 0, and beyond that, you won't draw any other led, because yuo will be dredging all day... So I think chalice is a good sideboard card against AdN (also, setting it at 0 won't counter your therapyes, another good new)

[nodahero]

I was wondering what the consensus is on Predator Dragon. The Pred seems like a solid option due to its ability to soar over a moat and the simple fact that it can usually get past a Prison for lethal by himself due to his devour 2. He has a base power of 4 which if we assume our opponent to be at 18 life (likely an over estimate) we need to off 7 tokens to make him lethal. with Zealot we needed 5 tokens plus the zealot to be lethal.

I do not play the deck sufficently to be a top tier player with the deck although to me it seems like a possible inclusion due to its game 1 applications. The requirement of an extra token seems well worth the advantages he gives against prison effects and moat.

P.S. for those who are unaware he also does have haste.

[GoldenCid]

Obviously, you play your LEDs before playing the chalice at 0, and beyond that, you won't draw any other led, because yuo will be dredging all day... So I think chalice is a good sideboard card against AdN (also, setting it at 0 won't counter your therapyes, another good new)

Yeah...but LED is not always in our opening hand. You have make a decition.
I keep my thoughs on unmask and therapy.

[sunshine]

Yeah...but LED is not always in our opening hand. You have make a decition.
I keep my thoughs on unmask and therapy.

The fact that Chalice @0 counters your own LEDs drawn after the first turn is really not such a strong argument against it. Most often you wont be drawing any cards after your first two turns anyway. Besides, Chalice @0 leaves you with 4 dead cards in your deck as opposed to potentially 12 dead cards in the combo player's - I'll take that trade any day. I'd be happy to accept 4 dead cards in my deck for 4 in my opponent's if his are all named Tormod's Crypt.

Personally, I don't run Chalice in my board anymore just because combo is not a significant presence in my meta (average less than 5%). If Ad Nauseam starts to become very prevalent in the next few months they may move back in.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Last night at my local tournament I took this list to a top 4 split out of 28 people:

4x Careful Study
4x Golgari-Grave Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Putrid Imp
4x Bridge from Below
4x Narcomoeba
3x Tireless Tribe
3x Ichorid
3x Dread Return
3x Darkblast
3x Breakthrough
3x Cabal Therapy
2x Cephalid Sage
1x Flame-Kin Zealot

4x Cephalid Colisseum
4x Gemstone mine
4x City of Brass
2x Tarnished Citadel
1x Undiscovered Paradise

SB
4x Wispmare
4x Pithing Needle
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Chain of Vapor

Usually I run 3x Chalice but when I got to the tournament I saw at least 4 people playing combo so I cut 1x Chain for the 4th Chalice. Here is a tournament report about what happened:

Round 1 Ad Nauseam Tendrils combo (unreg)
Game 1: I know what he is playing and mull to 6 trying to find Cabal Therapy and keep a hand that is a guarnteed turn 2 kill. He goes turn 1 land go. I drop Putrid Imp and don't see another turn. During his upkeep he Mystical Tutors for Nauseam and goes nuts. Nothing I can do there.

Sideboarding: I try some new sideboarding strategies and cut 1x Careful Study, 1x Cephalid Sage, 1x Dread Return and 1x Tireless Tribe for 4x Chalice.

Game 2: I mull to 6 again and keep a hand with Therapy. I play Putrid Imp on turn 1 cause I have a turn 2 kill in my hand and odds are he won't win on turn 1. He plays land LED, Petal go. Upkeep Imp flies and dredge GGT. Play Colessium and try to win. I hit absolutely nothing in my top 24 cards, 1x Bridge and 1x Therapy in the yard and 2x Moeba in play. Swing in with PImp and Therapy him, he acts like he wants to respond but doesn't so I call Mystical Tutor and hit it. The rest of his hand is Cabal Ritual, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm (important cards) so I decide not to discard the Therapy in my hand to flash it back. It didn't matter, EOT he Brainstorms and hits LED, IGG and its over next turn.

This is certainly a winnable matchup but not in favor of my build. Although I hate Unmask because of the savage card disadvantage it causes, that card combined with Cabal Therapy and Chalice could make this match very difficult for Ad Nauseam. I was also very unlucky with the dredging but that is the nature of this deck, I should have won game 2 but hey, nature of the beast.

It should be noted that the Ad Nauseam deck went 4-0-1 in swiss and lost in the first round of the top 8 to Ninja Chant. A deck that runs maindeck Extirpate, Orim's Chant, and Force of Will with Stifle in the SB. Also, all of the Ad Nauseams matchups were against solid Aggro, he didn't play against any Counterbalance or opposing combo decks.

I am at school and don't have time to finish my report. Sorry, I will be back on later and finish this off.

[sunshine]

Interesting list, I like Undiscovered Paradise a lot more than Tarnished Citadel mainly because it helps get your DDD plan on track if your turn one discard outlet is countered. I know Paradise has been debated in this thread before, just giving my two cents.

I am curious about what people usually name on a blind Therapy. You made a nice read putting him on Mystical Tutor even though it didn't work out. I usally (blind) name Brainstorm against any list with blue, especially if I'm planning to flash it back in the near future (even moreso if they pause to think about letting Therapy resolve). There's nothing worse than whiffing with therapy and seeing a Brainstorm.

[georgjorge]

Nice report, but of course the combo matchup DOES get better with LED (not saying that playing without LED is wrong, just in this matchup at least). I also think that the DR plan is worth it against combo, though I side in one Grand Arbiter Augusting IV (what a janky card...) since you don't need four or five zombie tokens like with Flame-Kin, it just spells GG as soon as it's put into play (well, they CAN tutor for Wipe Away, but that costs them six mana while their accel is shut off, which should be more than enough to win).