Children of Korlis seems like it's got decent potential for a deck like this as well.Originally Posted by Maveric78f
meh i wouldn't overlook the man plan. it can be good if you make it the right way. im sure someone will eventually test and find out how much it sucks or how amazing it is.
against popular kills?
the man plan is better because:
tarmogoyf.. comes down on turn 2. you can play your goyf on turn 1 (lotus petal, chrome mox), and you can swing with it before they drop goyf before the draw.
against burn, you have SB space to beat it. angels grace and chant should help here.
against dreadnought, you already run bounce and play chant to race them. in this case, evasive creatures are good (ie. tombstalker and bitterblossum (and negator kinda, and Avatar of Discord if you play it) because the opponent will have blockers (in this case goyf may not be such a good idea). but either way, if its game 2, they know you are playing combo, nobody expects the man plan, the stifles would be saved for storm obviously, they won't play dreadnought.
crusher, terravore? you can race those easily. they come down as 3/3's usually (maybe larger depending on the number of fetches. you should beat aggro loam anyway.
against combo, chant is the MVP because you can stop them mid way from going off. AG seem like it could be a decent side in as well. and MD duress is always helpful too.
i don't know how to structure the man plan, its just an idea.
i'm trying to not say the same shit everyone else is saying (ie. 'no run 3 chrome mox, not 4.' 'No FT is better than TES!' ' etc..)
back there jericohs@cottage had a great post. you guys are brainstorming different ways to approach ANT, he gave one. it may not have been the greatest idea ever but it got my brain thinking at least. if you just take one approach to the deck you may not necessarily get anywhere. thats why i suggested the man plan.
i will say once again, Scragnoth is really strong vs. landstill/CB decks. it might be a nice side in. they can't remove it once it comes down. if those matchups give you trouble, then solve that matchup problem with 4 SB slots.
Please use capitals where needed. They will make your posts clearer.
-PR
With humility or by having a bigger creature (tarmo e.g.) facing him.
As I told before, the main problem with the man plan is that it will be your single SB option (with the one of not SBing). Intuitively, I would say it's better to place dedicated game breaking cards, because they exist, particularly in white, with serenity (affinity, stax) and angel's grace (any aggro + burn). You may want to try it, but yo ucan make the surprise only once in a game, not on G2 and G3. And even more problematic, the guy you raped on round 1 will talk about it to all his mates, so that you can be sure that everybody in the tourney will know your deviance by round 3.
How the hell do you manage to lose to aggro with the IGG loop in the deck...Angel's grace + AN is a combo that I thought we all knew. First I thought it was stupid to transform a 1-card combo into a 2-card combo, but after some testing I realised that the aggro MU was almost the worst for the deck (since I run 8 MD protection + 1 bounce). First I tried to accelerate the combo in order to race those aggro decks. Then I realised that the AG+AN combo solved my aggro problems.
I dont thing 9 MD protection/bounce are needed 6 has worked perfectly for me. it leaves room for 3 ponder which is bombo for the turn 2 verson.
I c h o r i d - my anti blue
Manaless Ichorid- At least its cheeper than standard.
We admit for the sake of the exercise that following is true:
Landstill > Fromat
Non-Basic Hate > Landstill
Basics > Non-Basic Hate
We can therefore logically conlude that
Basics > Format
Just a thought about the bouncer slot. I'm currently playing Repeal, and I'm loving it. When playing Ad Nauseam I want my cards to worth the damage they deal to me, taking 4 to a Tendrils is ok to me since we need it to win, but getting 3 from a card that I won't use in many matchups is kind of disappointing. And Repeal has also a nice interaction with Mystical Tutor, specially after playing Ad Nauseam, when IT won't work all the time.
We tried to copy the Source, but then we realized we're spanish
If my post results dumb or offensive, it's probably just me miserably failing at being ironic in a foreign language
That was the post I was about to write.
FeFe Team: Legacy in the Southern Hemisphere.
Good luck bouncing Gaddeck Teeg.
I was actually thinking that IGG loop should beat aggro pretty well. Of course, you do not always have it sitting in your hand though but you should be able to AdN into it.
You see you don't necessarily have to devote so much card space to a man plan. the tradition man plan that everyone thinks of is usually like 15 cards sided in, but that is not really necessary. You can apply pressure with both parts of your combo (as long as you don't try to AdN into tombstalker as that would cause you a headache, or kill you instantly and give your opponent a head rush instead). If you resolve AdN you can play down a shit ton of stuff cause you will draw alot of it.
Here's an example of my 'man plan':
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Tomb of Urami
3 Naturalize
2 Massacre
2 Xantid Swarm
I'm not sure if this is the exact board I use but dam let me tell you, phyrexian negators have been much better for me then xantid swarm ever was. both are must counter for landstill or MUC (when you actually play against it) but negator ends the game quickly once and if it comes down. xantid swarm sits there for too long laughing because the opponent can't play countermagic but usually it gets bounced or something before i can actually go off.
I will say once again that Tomb of Urami has been excellent against Stax, Thresh and Landstill. I have used it against MUC too but the game was really weird (in that he had a counterspell for seriously everything i tried to play, mana sources, rituals and business. it was really pissing me off). Sometimes you can draw4 into a negator and play it and pass but if you can apply pressure (or at least i do pretty well) with your draw4's and your creatures, as you can just imprint negators you don't need on chrome moxen, or LED/IGG loop into a win and negator is just irrelevant. Its also a nice play and pass if you got fucked on a lack of business spells.
I don't believe that the man plan needs to have 15 cards, it can really just have 8.
I'm going to test Scragnoth btw as i think it would be amazing to drop one against landstill which can be a difficult matchup for me.
No offence man plan sucks, you only need it vs burn ironicaly. Its not a good idea if you fear the burn/aggro matchup board more IGG and tendrils like 2 IGG board and 1 tendrils would be a fine aggro board if you dont auto win the aggro match already (I was playing the burn matchup and it was really 1 sided ANT crushes the deck unless you flip outrageously bad)
I c h o r i d - my anti blue
Manaless Ichorid- At least its cheeper than standard.
We admit for the sake of the exercise that following is true:
Landstill > Fromat
Non-Basic Hate > Landstill
Basics > Non-Basic Hate
We can therefore logically conlude that
Basics > Format
Repeal is awesome........in vintage.
Teeg and Chalice at 1 are the reason because Repeal sucks.
Same for Chain of Vapor. It sucks in legacy.
About the problem: Orim vs Duress, there are an hundred of posts in this forum on the old FT/TES threads. If you have the patience to read, you can understand why players, with a little bit of experience with FT/TES, prefer Orim maindeck.
Why is Burn a problem? It seems the worst matchup from some comments.
It's simple: the plan A become the IGG loop, for this reason I side out a copy of AN. AN in this matchup is the plan B, I play it only if I can win easily in the first 2 turns if I remain with more than 5 lifes after AN resolves.
Again, why do we fill the SB of crappy cards like Angel's Grace and Children of Korlis? Orim is not enough for aggro matchup? Someone perhaps forget that aggro usually is a easy matchup for combo, so I repeat: why do you use card like these?
Is Burn or Dreadstill the worst matchup?
The world upside down.
Man plan sucks. You improve partially a few matchups, but you haven't response in SB to all others. I try it with Stalker, Confidant, Hyppie & Negator, but I waste my time. If you want to waste your time, I don't block you.
The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel. - Neuromancer
The IGG setup is not as easy as the AN one (you need a lot of mana, IT and the ability to empty your hand). Moreover, it is often difficult to make a 10-storm with a single IGG. Plus with pyrostatic pillar in play, you automatically lose with the IGG loop.
I think I would consider sensei's divining top before ponder because it enables you to find tendrils with a single blue source. Moreover it's often better in a deck that can shuffle that often. Maybe, I'm not brave enough, but I really think that playing a protection is worth to lose 1 turn.I dont thing 9 MD protection/bounce are needed 6 has worked perfectly for me. it leaves room for 3 ponder which is bombo for the turn 2 verson.
CoK is clearly bad, AG is far better, but you rhétoric is faulty, you say that those cards are bad, because they are crappy... As I told earlier, relying on the IGG plan is too random.Again, why do we fill the SB of crappy cards like Angel's Grace and Children of Korlis? Orim is not enough for aggro matchup? Someone perhaps forget that aggro usually is a easy matchup for combo, so I repeat: why do you use card like these?
Hmm I wonder why Fetchland Tendrils plays IGG, it's Clearly bad.
You're suggesting a 2-card combo with for 7 mana(4BBW) allow me to suggest Trix then. It cost the same but is in one color. IGG is quite easy to set up, there are more possibilities then LED/LED/IT. Also later in the game with a big yard and little life IGG is very powerfull. It's also powerfull in fighting discard.
BB
BB
Why are you arguing that IGG is powerful. Of course it is. I even play 1 copy MD, but to my mind it's not enough to ensure to win the burn MU. My 2 cards combo costs 6 manas (3BBW) and it's far more easy to gather than the IT/IGG combo. Playing both enables you to follow one plan or another, enables you to go off on turn 1 or 2 with only AN. And AG can also be a card that counters the opposing lethal fireblast, giving you the time to combo at least one turn later. And finally, pyrostatic pillar does not mean GG with AG.Hmm I wonder why Fetchland Tendrils plays IGG, it's Clearly bad.
Edit: yesterday, I've won against a Dragon Stompy build that had Chalice@1, Chalice@2 and a moon effect into play thanks to an IGG loop, so I know how it can win desperate situations. I had no bounce because I had to bounce a creature in order to survive.
What is happening lately, people have problems speaking english... WHAT!?
Repeal is awesome in Vintage? For a while, maybe like a year ago. People don't play Teeg in Vintage. The only deck that used Teeg was Dawn of the Dead. And that deck wasn't even tier 1. I would call that deck "FAIR". Second, in Vintage you drop Chalice at 0, not 1.
Why does Chain of Vapor suck in Legacy? This guy thinks he's the tits and ass of magic ladies and gentlemen cause he doesn't bother with explaining his posts at all...lol When jegger says something he's right and no explanations necessary.
Last edited by jericohs@cottage; 10-16-2008 at 04:54 PM.
I have played both and played TES and FT. I perfer TES because it is faster. But here duress is indeed better then FT because when AdN goes off without protection it doesnt fear stifle, or such, It fears only 1-2 cards force and (counter spell) If your off its over. Thats just the way the game plays, duress helps you get off easier then chant does when your first sources are lower then say TES. You have no spirit guides and need a crapton of black mana so you just happen to be able to disrupt them.About the problem: Orim vs Duress, there are an hundred of posts in this forum on the old FT/TES threads. If you have the patience to read, you can understand why players, with a little bit of experience with FT/TES, prefer Orim maindeck.
I c h o r i d - my anti blue
Manaless Ichorid- At least its cheeper than standard.
We admit for the sake of the exercise that following is true:
Landstill > Fromat
Non-Basic Hate > Landstill
Basics > Non-Basic Hate
We can therefore logically conlude that
Basics > Format
I think we can excuse his English seeing as he is from Italy.What is happening, lately people have problems speaking english... WHAT!?
Repeal is awesome in Vintage? For a while, maybe like a year ago. People don't play Teeg in Vintage. The only deck that used Teeg was Dawn of the Dead. And that deck wasn't even tier 1. I would call that deck "FAIR". Second, in Vintage you drop Chalice at 0, not 1.
Why does Chain of Vapor suck in Legacy? This guy thinks he's the tits and ass of magic ladies and gentlemen cause he doesn't bother with explaining his posts at all...lol When jegger says something he's right and no explanations necessary.
Also, I think he was saying that people play Teeg and Chalice@1 in Legacy thus making Repeal/CoV less than ideal in Legacy. Just to clear that up.
awesome
True. This is the sense of my post.
And sorry for my bad english.
Please, can you send me in pvt the mistakes I do in my posts?
I want to learn.
The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel. - Neuromancer
I've been assimilated by the english. Shouldn't everyone else be assimilated by now. I don't know a single country on the face of the earth that doesn't actively use the universal and easy to learn language. ;-)
You can say a lot of things about English, but it's not easy to learn to speak or write well because it's incosistent.
what is Ad Nauseam? Can someone please explain.
Survival will be good forever... kinda like a maraschino cherry.
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